Hello,

I am working on a PCB-based antenna, with copper on both sides.
Believe it or not, the hardest part is figuring out how much the PCB
material would cost. Does anyone have any PCB costing numbers for
FR4, FR408, Nelco 40013, Rogers 4003, any other material? I
understand that thickness plays a major part in the cost so if
possible please include the board thickness with the cost number (I am
currently thinking of using 20mils thick PCB). It would probably be
easiest if the cost was in units of US$ per sq. inch or sq. cm. Many
thanks.

From my days in the Silicon Valley in California, the biggest thing I
remember about PCB costs weren't related directly to the size or
thickness, they were quantity....

I've had quite a number of double sided PCBs fabricated, along with
numerous multilayer ones, and the overriding issue with cost was the
"non-recurring costs " of generation of the masks, tooling and setup
needed to convert the supplied circuit trace films to finished boards.
Once the fixed costs are covered, the individual costs of each board
weren't usually all that high, if you had enough volume. As a simple
example, a small jumper board of about 2.5" square, double sided 60 mil
thick and only about 75 holes, with soldermask cost about a buck each at a
quantity of 200. At a quantity of 500, the price was something like sixty
cents each... Of course, this was the sort of thing that a hundred pieces
would be a near lifetime supply, and at a quantity 100, the price was
about 1.75 each.... Such is the problem of amortizing the fixed and setup
costs over a relatively small quantity.

So, any price that you get quoted on a per square inch basis will have to
carry some serious disclaimers or additional explanation of the fixed and
setup costs incurred in making the first board, along with price breaks
for quantity....

The best thing to do is to contact some places that do engineering
prototype quantity work, and see what they say. You can usually get a
decent price quote by providing the outside dimensions, basic construction
(thickness, number of layers and copper weight (thickness) along with
things like number of holes, how many different sizes of holes involved,
whether they are plated through, and whether you want a bare board, solder
plating on the exposed copper and such things as solder mask and legend
(the exact term for legend, the lettering on one or more sides of the
board doesn't come to me at this moment,)) and, of course, the quantity of
the run you want made. Of course, tolerance is also important.... If you
need ultra-precise registration between layers, that will tend to cost
more than an alternate board with a looser tolerance...

It seems like a lot of information, but once you get used to it, it's not
so bad.

Of course, if the relative amount of circuitry on opposite sides of the
board isn't somewhat equal, (called copper-balancing) the board may have a
tendency to warp during manufacture, or even warp or curl with changes in
temperature, particularly if one side uses a thick (heavy) copper and the
other lighter weight copper. This is especially important if you intend
to wave solder the PCB during assembly or other manufacturing
processes....

Of course, yet another variable in the cost issue is where the PCB
manufacturer is and what sort of volume they deal with. If you're looking
for quick turn shops, there are (or at least used to be) a lot of them
around the Silicon Valley area. However, if you're expecting to find
someone in Podunk WA, KS, OH, FL or similar locations away from high-tech
development, you may be looking at higher prices unless they are "hungry".

Good Luck
-_Rick AH7H

basketball_jones wrote:

Hello,

I am working on a PCB-based antenna, with copper on both sides.
Believe it or not, the hardest part is figuring out how much the PCB
material would cost. Does anyone have any PCB costing numbers for
FR4, FR408, Nelco 40013, Rogers 4003, any other material? I
understand that thickness plays a major part in the cost so if
possible please include the board thickness with the cost number (I am
currently thinking of using 20mils thick PCB). It would probably be
easiest if the cost was in units of US$ per sq. inch or sq. cm. Many
thanks.

Two more things:
Assume very high, production volume so setup, tooling etc. are not a factor.
There is only one hole.

Many thanks.

(basketball_jones) wrote in message . com...
Hello,

I am working on a PCB-based antenna, with copper on both sides.
Believe it or not, the hardest part is figuring out how much the PCB
material would cost. Does anyone have any PCB costing numbers for
FR4, FR408, Nelco 40013, Rogers 4003, any other material? I
understand that thickness plays a major part in the cost so if
possible please include the board thickness with the cost number (I am
currently thinking of using 20mils thick PCB). It would probably be
easiest if the cost was in units of US$ per sq. inch or sq. cm. Many
thanks.

Hello,

I am working on a PCB-based antenna, with copper on both sides.
Believe it or not, the hardest part is figuring out how much the PCB
material would cost. Does anyone have any PCB costing numbers for
FR4, FR408, Nelco 40013, Rogers 4003, any other material? I
understand that thickness plays a major part in the cost so if
possible please include the board thickness with the cost number (I am
currently thinking of using 20mils thick PCB). It would probably be
easiest if the cost was in units of US$ per sq. inch or sq. cm. Many
thanks.


4003 is very good, but there are many less expensive alternatives, depending
on the app and freq required. I am puzzled why you haven't priced this with
manufacturer's reps or even board fab houses. They are not shrinking violets,
and happy to give you info

Also, it would be helpful to know who you are. Basketball and antennas don't
often get placed together.

73,
Chip N1IR

(Fractenna) verbositized:


Also, it would be helpful to know who you are. Basketball and antennas don't
often get placed together.

Don't know about that Chip!
Every player on my sons team had an earpiece and tranceiver so the
coach could chew them out while playing.

TTUL
Gary

Don't know about that Chip!
Every player on my sons team had an earpiece and tranceiver so the
coach could chew them out while playing.

TTUL
Gary



WIreless basketball. That's a new direction!

;-

73,
Chip N1IR

(Fractenna) wrote in message ...
Hello,

I am working on a PCB-based antenna, with copper on both sides.
Believe it or not, the hardest part is figuring out how much the PCB
material would cost. Does anyone have any PCB costing numbers for
FR4, FR408, Nelco 40013, Rogers 4003, any other material? I
understand that thickness plays a major part in the cost so if
possible please include the board thickness with the cost number (I am
currently thinking of using 20mils thick PCB). It would probably be
easiest if the cost was in units of US$ per sq. inch or sq. cm. Many
thanks.


4003 is very good, but there are many less expensive alternatives, depending
on the app and freq required. I am puzzled why you haven't priced this with
manufacturer's reps or even board fab houses. They are not shrinking violets,
and happy to give you info

Also, it would be helpful to know who you are. Basketball and antennas don't
often get placed together.

73,
Chip N1IR

My name is Kevin, Mr. Fractenna. The reason I don't call the reps is
because I am not nearly as interested in the numbers they tell me as I
am in the numbers that folks have already negotiated. In this way
when I eventually call them I have an idea of how much I am getting
ripped off. Last time I called a rep he wanted me to pay 60 cents for
a nickel part. So how much I am overpaying is the answer I am after.

You indicate that you are aware of less expensive alternatives to
4003. Would you kindly let me know what those are. Are we talking
materials other than FR408? BTW the frequency is in the 3-4GHz band,
so loss tangent and other stuff only somewhat matters. There is a
price/efficiency tradeoff in play. I would like to 'see the whole
field' before I decide which way to run.

Thanks.
Kevin Smith

My name is Kevin, Mr. Fractenna. The reason I don't call the reps is
because I am not nearly as interested in the numbers they tell me as I
am in the numbers that folks have already negotiated. In this way
when I eventually call them I have an idea of how much I am getting
ripped off. Last time I called a rep he wanted me to pay 60 cents for
a nickel part. So how much I am overpaying is the answer I am after.

You indicate that you are aware of less expensive alternatives to
4003. Would you kindly let me know what those are. Are we talking
materials other than FR408? BTW the frequency is in the 3-4GHz band,
so loss tangent and other stuff only somewhat matters. There is a
price/efficiency tradeoff in play. I would like to 'see the whole
field' before I decide which way to run.

Thanks.
Kevin Smith

....and that's exactly why you need the reps in.

We do thousands of square feet of PCB a year, and we never had to use a
newsgroup to figure out a good price, or ask anyone in the way you suggest.
Call the reps. If you want to play games, then you can invite them over on the
same day and ask for their best price.

The substrate houses are eager for business and you owe it to good
vendor-customer relationships to play it straight. That's my opinion. But hey,
what do I know:-)?

BTW, putting FR4 and 4003 in the same sentence indicates you may really need
the vendors to fill you in: No one uses FR4 efficiently at those freqs--lousy
loss tangent. OTH, I, personally, do not choose 4003 much due to cost, save
for very specific high margin needs. But others, of course, may choose these
great product according to their needs.

73,
Chip N1IR

(Fractenna) wrote in message ...
My name is Kevin, Mr. Fractenna. The reason I don't call the reps is
because I am not nearly as interested in the numbers they tell me as I
am in the numbers that folks have already negotiated. In this way
when I eventually call them I have an idea of how much I am getting
ripped off. Last time I called a rep he wanted me to pay 60 cents for
a nickel part. So how much I am overpaying is the answer I am after.

You indicate that you are aware of less expensive alternatives to
4003. Would you kindly let me know what those are. Are we talking
materials other than FR408? BTW the frequency is in the 3-4GHz band,
so loss tangent and other stuff only somewhat matters. There is a
price/efficiency tradeoff in play. I would like to 'see the whole
field' before I decide which way to run.

Thanks.
Kevin Smith

...and that's exactly why you need the reps in.

We do thousands of square feet of PCB a year, and we never had to use a
newsgroup to figure out a good price, or ask anyone in the way you suggest.
Call the reps. If you want to play games, then you can invite them over on the
same day and ask for their best price.

The substrate houses are eager for business and you owe it to good
vendor-customer relationships to play it straight. That's my opinion. But hey,
what do I know:-)?

BTW, putting FR4 and 4003 in the same sentence indicates you may really need
the vendors to fill you in: No one uses FR4 efficiently at those freqs--lousy
loss tangent. OTH, I, personally, do not choose 4003 much due to cost, save
for very specific high margin needs. But others, of course, may choose these
great product according to their needs.

73,
Chip N1IR

Mr. Fractenna you call it games, everyone else calls it business and
the reps are playing. Are you SURE you are getting the best price for
those thousands of square feet? What if you could knock it down by a
penny/sq in? What better place than a forum like this to figure out
what the right price is?

BTW I know the differences between FR4 and 4003 properties. I don't
know the difference in cost so I only have half the equation (if you
look above, I told you that there is a cost/efficiency tradoff in
place for my application).

BTW You have NOT answered one question I asked so far. It would be
helpful if you either answered the questions or stopped wasting my
time. You, my friend are the one that's playing games.

basketball_jones wrote:
BTW You have NOT answered one question I asked so far. It would be
helpful if you either answered the questions or stopped wasting my
time.

It's a little ironic that you're trying to save a penny or two on your
design and think that bitching about free advice is somehow going to help
you achieve that goal...

Look, call up a dozen or so vendors and get some price quotes -- it'll give
you some idea of what a 'reasonable' price should be. Figure out what you
can charge for your product... if there's enough money left for you to make
profit, just go for it and leave the rest of your learning/profit
maximization until you actually have an income stream and some track record
of the difficulties in building your products.

Anyone worrying about $.01/sq. in. either has such a huge volume that they
should be able to afford an expect to get the best prices and redesign the
product (this oftens makes a huge difference!) specifically to be easy to
manufacture or else is probably never going to get their product out the
door in the first place. I've seen many people who seemed to have viable
product ideas never get anywhere because they spent far too much time
worrying about how to squeeze the last penny out of manufacturing costs and
ran out of enthusiasm to simply design and document the product properly.

---Joel Kolstad