Once mo
""In 1818 Arago found that the refraction of a prism for star light
was the
same for light incident in the direction of the earth's orbital
velocity v
as for that coming in the opposite direction. This unexpected null result
was explained that same year by Fresnel's ether-dray theory, which
assumed
partial ether entrainment in transparent media by an amount depending
upon
the first power of v." From: http://www.3rd1000.com/chronoatoms.htm

Today's spectrograph astronomers assume that the effect is not null.

It seems to me that today's astronomers are wrong because in physics are
still null result.
So I am looking for the result from communication with the spacecraft.
S*


Earth's rotation is about 465.1 m/s
Say the average frequency of visible light is 500THz

doppler shift is (Vr/C)*F = (465/ 3 * 10^8)*500 * 10^12 = 7.75 10^8Hz
So to see the shift you will need to be able to observe your light
frequency to an accuracy of about 0.00015%. Which would have been
impossible for Arago.

Of course the above figures are only true for light coming directly at
the observer ie on the horizon, so for other angles there is a Cos Theta
term to reduce the effect even more (to zero directly overhead).

Jeff

"Jeff" napisal w wiadomosci
...

Once mo
""In 1818 Arago found that the refraction of a prism for star light
was the
same for light incident in the direction of the earth's orbital
velocity v
as for that coming in the opposite direction. This unexpected null result
was explained that same year by Fresnel's ether-dray theory, which
assumed
partial ether entrainment in transparent media by an amount depending
upon
the first power of v." From: http://www.3rd1000.com/chronoatoms.htm

Today's spectrograph astronomers assume that the effect is not null.

It seems to me that today's astronomers are wrong because in physics are
still null result.
So I am looking for the result from communication with the spacecraft.
S*


Earth's rotation is about 465.1 m/s
Say the average frequency of visible light is 500THz

doppler shift is (Vr/C)*F = (465/ 3 * 10^8)*500 * 10^12 = 7.75 10^8Hz
So to see the shift you will need to be able to observe your light
frequency to an accuracy of about 0.00015%. Which would have been
impossible for Arago.

"In 1818 Arago found that the refraction of a prism for star light was the
same for light incident in the direction of the earth's orbital velocity v
as for that coming in the opposite direction".

The orbital speed is about 30 km/s. Todays radio methods are adequate for
0.5 and for 30.

Of course the above figures are only true for light coming directly at the
observer ie on the horizon, so for other angles there is a Cos Theta term
to reduce the effect even more (to zero directly overhead).

The rotational speed was too small for everybody till 1925. In this year the
Michelson and Gale detected the Earth's rotation.. But nobody detect the
orbital speed.

The same is with the spacecrafts. The diurnal effect is confirmed. I am
looking for the annual effect.
S*
S*

On 11/7/2011 1:14 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"The first observations of cosmic radio emission were made by the American
engineer Karl G. Jansky in 1932, while studying thunderstorm radio
disturbances at a frequency of 20.5 MHz (14.6 m). He discovered radio
emission of unknown origin, which varied within a 24-hour period. Later he
identified the source of this radiation to be in the direction of the centre
of our Galaxy. From: http://encyclozine.com/science/astronomy/radio

I understand that the frequency "varied within a 24-hour period". It is the
"diurnal effect".
And what about the 365 days period (annual effect)?
S*



You mean when earth is generally heading "towards" the galactic center
vs when earth is heading "away" from the galactic center?

People doing deep space navigation deal with this all the time, since
navigation is done by measuring the frequency of the received signal
from the spacecraft. There's nothing special about it. spacecraft on
some heliocentric trajectory, Earth on a different heliocentric
trajectory. Measure frequency shift, they use to determine spacecraft
trajectory by applying (mostly) Newtonian physics (you do have to use
relativistic corrections to get the last gnat's eyelash of precision).

Since you only get to measure in one direction, you have to make
assumptions about what's going on in the other directions, (e.g. cross
range), which can lead to disasters (Mars Climate Orbiter, most recently).

You can do various forms of VLBI and DeltaDOR to get some cross range
information, but nothing as good as what you're getting for range (where
velocity and range are measured to mm/s and cm sorts of accuracy)

"Jim Lux" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On 11/7/2011 1:14 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"The first observations of cosmic radio emission were made by the
American
engineer Karl G. Jansky in 1932, while studying thunderstorm radio
disturbances at a frequency of 20.5 MHz (14.6 m). He discovered radio
emission of unknown origin, which varied within a 24-hour period. Later
he
identified the source of this radiation to be in the direction of the
centre
of our Galaxy. From: http://encyclozine.com/science/astronomy/radio

I understand that the frequency "varied within a 24-hour period". It is
the
"diurnal effect".
And what about the 365 days period (annual effect)?
S*



You mean when earth is generally heading "towards" the galactic center vs
when earth is heading "away" from the galactic center?

Yes. But on the Earth orbit are places when this speed is 0.5 km/s (only
rotation) or 30 km/s. (orbital speed).

People doing deep space navigation deal with this all the time, since
navigation is done by measuring the frequency of the received signal from
the spacecraft. There's nothing special about it. spacecraft on some
heliocentric trajectory, Earth on a different heliocentric trajectory.

Like the Earth and Mars.

Measure frequency shift, they use to determine spacecraft trajectory by
applying (mostly) Newtonian physics (you do have to use relativistic
corrections to get the last gnat's eyelash of precision).

They confirm the diurnal changings in the frequency. But what with the
annual?

Since you only get to measure in one direction, you have to make
assumptions about what's going on in the other directions, (e.g. cross
range), which can lead to disasters (Mars Climate Orbiter, most recently).

You can do various forms of VLBI and DeltaDOR to get some cross range
information, but nothing as good as what you're getting for range (where
velocity and range are measured to mm/s and cm sorts of accuracy)

Naw are the spacecraft at distances almost like stars. They are not on
heliocentric trajectory.

So I repeat my question:
" I have found the link:
http://chaos.swarthmore.edu/courses/...er_Anomaly.pdf

""It is also possible to infer the position in the sky of a
spacecraft from the Doppler data. This is accomplished by

examining the diurnal variation imparted to the Doppler shift

by the Earth's rotation. As the ground station rotates underneath

a spacecraft, the Doppler shift is modulated by a sinusoid."

Here they confirm the diurnal variation in the frequency.

Probably in this paper is also the answer for my question: "And what about
the 365 days period (annual variation in the frequency)?
Unfortunately I am not an expert in radio. Do you know the answer?

S*

On 11/15/2011 12:56 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Jim napisal w wiadomosci
n

You mean when earth is generally heading "towards" the galactic center vs
when earth is heading "away" from the galactic center?

Yes. But on the Earth orbit are places when this speed is 0.5 km/s (only
rotation) or 30 km/s. (orbital speed).

People doing deep space navigation deal with this all the time, since
navigation is done by measuring the frequency of the received signal from
the spacecraft. There's nothing special about it. spacecraft on some
heliocentric trajectory, Earth on a different heliocentric trajectory.

Like the Earth and Mars.

Yes, and, for instance, they measure the Doppler shift in the signals
radiated from spacecraft/rovers in orbit/on the surface of Mars as they
arrive at earth.

As expected, the Doppler has several components: one from the rotation
of Earth, one from the rotation of Mars (for a surface asset), and one
from the relative motion of Mars and Earth (which is periodic with about
a 2 year, 2 month period)

No surprises, nothing unusual. In fact, *tiny* variations in the
Doppler are used to compute the orbit around planets, and from that,
infer the internal structure of the planet. Juno is going to Jupiter
right now to do this, and the Doppler will be measured with a precision
of about 1 part in 1E15 (measured over 100-1000 seconds).



Measure frequency shift, they use to determine spacecraft trajectory by
applying (mostly) Newtonian physics (you do have to use relativistic
corrections to get the last gnat's eyelash of precision).

They confirm the diurnal changings in the frequency. But what with the
annual?

All changes in frequency, of course. Load up the SPICE kernels, run the
numerical integration, and the expected frequency pops out.



Since you only get to measure in one direction, you have to make
assumptions about what's going on in the other directions, (e.g. cross
range), which can lead to disasters (Mars Climate Orbiter, most recently).

You can do various forms of VLBI and DeltaDOR to get some cross range
information, but nothing as good as what you're getting for range (where
velocity and range are measured to mm/s and cm sorts of accuracy)

Naw are the spacecraft at distances almost like stars. They are not on
heliocentric trajectory.

All spacecraft that humans have launched are on some form of either
planetary centric or heliocentric trajectory or a combination of both.
In any case, they are computable (viz. Gauss) and measureable.




So I repeat my question:
" I have found the link:
http://chaos.swarthmore.edu/courses/...er_Anomaly.pdf

""It is also possible to infer the position in the sky of a
spacecraft from the Doppler data. This is accomplished by

examining the diurnal variation imparted to the Doppler shift

by the Earth's rotation. As the ground station rotates underneath

a spacecraft, the Doppler shift is modulated by a sinusoid."


That's somewhat of an over simplification, but it's essentially true.

The paper describes the technique used to measure the frequency.. A
signal is generated on the ground at 2.11 GHz, locked to a hydrogen
maser. that signal is radiated to the spacecraft, which uses a phase
locked loop to track it. The spacecraft sends back a signal with a
frequency/phase ratio of exactly 240/221 (i.e. about 2.29 GHz) which is
received on earth and compared with the same hydrogen maser.



Here they confirm the diurnal variation in the frequency.

Probably in this paper is also the answer for my question: "And what about
the 365 days period (annual variation in the frequency)?
Unfortunately I am not an expert in radio. Do you know the answer?

Do you want to know the magnitude of the shift? Earth's orbital velocity
is about 30km/s, so the fractional frequency change is 1 part in 1E4
(100ppm). That's huge compared to, for example, the change due to the
oscillator frequency aging. Considering that for deep space navigation,
frequencies are regularly measured these days to parts in 1E12, this is
something they deal with on a day to day basis at the Deep Space Network.


if you want more details, take a look at equations (3) through (6) on
page 11-12 of the 50 page paper you cited, which gives a nice detailed
explanation of all the factors they are taking into account. And, they
nicely note how you can use the models to implement theories of gravity
other than general relativity.

equation 4 describes the light time (which ties to doppler measurement)
and includes the relativistic corrections as well.

they take into account things you haven't mentioned such as changes in
the earth orientation (precession, for instance), changes in earth
rotation rate.

"In summary, this dynamical model accounts for a number
of post-Newtonian perturbations in the motions of the planets,
the Moon, and spacecraft. Light propagation is correct to
order c^-2. The equations of motion of extended celestial
bodies are valid to order c^-4. Indeed, this dynamical model
has been good enough to perform tests of general relativity
@28,51,52#."



I'd comment that if you read and understand the entire paper, you're
well on your way to really knowing how we do deep space navigation and
the myriad things that have an effect and must be taken into account.
They also have a VERY complete discussion of numerical computation effects.

They also do mention an annual sinusoid (not accounted for by simple
orbital motion) of 1.6E-8 cm/s^2... (about 0.012 Hz at 2.29GHz) (page
37) which they attribute to small problems in their modeling of the
solar system that are normally masked by other noise sources, but
because Pioneer makes such a good detector, you can find it.

I'll note that the anomaly identified in the paper has since been
analyzed extensively, and as I recall, once you take into account the
thermal radiation pressure with sufficient accuracy, you can account for it.

(there has been a substantial improvement in computational and modeling
capability in the last 10 years, since that paper was published) After
all, the paper says "Further experiment and analysis is obviously needed
to resolve this problem."

"Jim Lux" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On 11/15/2011 12:56 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Jim napisal w wiadomosci
n

You mean when earth is generally heading "towards" the galactic center
vs
when earth is heading "away" from the galactic center?

Yes. But on the Earth orbit are places when this speed is 0.5 km/s (only
rotation) or 30 km/s. (orbital speed).

People doing deep space navigation deal with this all the time, since
navigation is done by measuring the frequency of the received signal
from
the spacecraft. There's nothing special about it. spacecraft on some
heliocentric trajectory, Earth on a different heliocentric trajectory.

Like the Earth and Mars.

Yes, and, for instance, they measure the Doppler shift in the signals
radiated from spacecraft/rovers in orbit/on the surface of Mars as they
arrive at earth.

Do they published the results?

As expected, the Doppler has several components: one from the rotation of
Earth, one from the rotation of Mars (for a surface asset), and one from
the relative motion of Mars and Earth (which is periodic with about a 2
year, 2 month period)

I am asking about "one from the relative motion of Mars and Earth "

No surprises, nothing unusual. In fact, *tiny* variations in the Doppler
are used to compute the orbit around planets, and from that, infer the
internal structure of the planet. Juno is going to Jupiter right now to do
this, and the Doppler will be measured with a precision of about 1 part in
1E15 (measured over 100-1000 seconds).


Measure frequency shift, they use to determine spacecraft trajectory by
applying (mostly) Newtonian physics (you do have to use relativistic
corrections to get the last gnat's eyelash of precision).

They confirm the diurnal changings in the frequency. But what with the
annual?

All changes in frequency, of course. Load up the SPICE kernels, run the
numerical integration, and the expected frequency pops out.

I am interested only in the measured results.

Since you only get to measure in one direction, you have to make
assumptions about what's going on in the other directions, (e.g. cross
range), which can lead to disasters (Mars Climate Orbiter, most
recently).

You can do various forms of VLBI and DeltaDOR to get some cross range
information, but nothing as good as what you're getting for range (where
velocity and range are measured to mm/s and cm sorts of accuracy)

Naw are the spacecraft at distances almost like stars. They are not on
heliocentric trajectory.

All spacecraft that humans have launched are on some form of either
planetary centric or heliocentric trajectory or a combination of both. In
any case, they are computable (viz. Gauss) and measureable.


So I repeat my question:
" I have found the link:
http://chaos.swarthmore.edu/courses/...er_Anomaly.pdf

""It is also possible to infer the position in the sky of a
spacecraft from the Doppler data. This is accomplished by

examining the diurnal variation imparted to the Doppler shift

by the Earth's rotation. As the ground station rotates underneath

a spacecraft, the Doppler shift is modulated by a sinusoid."


That's somewhat of an over simplification, but it's essentially true.

The paper describes the technique used to measure the frequency.. A signal
is generated on the ground at 2.11 GHz, locked to a hydrogen maser. that
signal is radiated to the spacecraft, which uses a phase locked loop to
track it. The spacecraft sends back a signal with a frequency/phase ratio
of exactly 240/221 (i.e. about 2.29 GHz) which is received on earth and
compared with the same hydrogen maser.


Here they confirm the diurnal variation in the frequency.

Probably in this paper is also the answer for my question: "And what
about
the 365 days period (annual variation in the frequency)?
Unfortunately I am not an expert in radio. Do you know the answer?

Do you want to know the magnitude of the shift?

The measured value.

Earth's orbital velocity is about 30km/s, so the fractional frequency
change is 1 part in 1E4 (100ppm). That's huge compared to, for example,
the change due to the oscillator frequency aging. Considering that for
deep space navigation, frequencies are regularly measured these days to
parts in 1E12, this is something they deal with on a day to day basis at
the Deep Space Network.


if you want more details, take a look at equations (3) through (6) on page
11-12 of the 50 page paper you cited, which gives a nice detailed
explanation of all the factors they are taking into account. And, they
nicely note how you can use the models to implement theories of gravity
other than general relativity.

equation 4 describes the light time (which ties to doppler measurement)
and includes the relativistic corrections as well.

they take into account things you haven't mentioned such as changes in the
earth orientation (precession, for instance), changes in earth rotation
rate.

"In summary, this dynamical model accounts for a number
of post-Newtonian perturbations in the motions of the planets,
the Moon, and spacecraft. Light propagation is correct to
order c^-2. The equations of motion of extended celestial
bodies are valid to order c^-4. Indeed, this dynamical model
has been good enough to perform tests of general relativity
@28,51,52#."



I'd comment that if you read and understand the entire paper, you're well
on your way to really knowing how we do deep space navigation and the
myriad things that have an effect and must be taken into account. They
also have a VERY complete discussion of numerical computation effects.

They also do mention an annual sinusoid (not accounted for by simple
orbital motion) of 1.6E-8 cm/s^2... (about 0.012 Hz at 2.29GHz) (page 37)
which they attribute to small problems in their modeling of the solar
system that are normally masked by other noise sources, but because
Pioneer makes such a good detector, you can find it.

They wrote (page 37): "
Fig. 17, which shows the aP residuals from a value for aP of

(7.7760.16)31028 cm/s2. The data was processed using

ODP-SIGMA with a batch-sequential filter and smoothing algorithm.

The solution for aP was obtained using 1-day batch

sizes. Also shown are the maneuver times. At early times the

annual term is largest. During Interval II, the interval of the

large spin-rate change anomaly, coherent oscillation is lost.

During Interval III the oscillation is smaller and begins to die"

I "read the entire paper" but I do not and understand if the above "During
Interval III the oscillation is smaller and begins to die" means that the
annual variation in frequency die when the spacecraft was very far.

I'll note that the anomaly identified in the paper has since been analyzed
extensively, and as I recall, once you take into account the thermal
radiation pressure with sufficient accuracy, you can account for it.

(there has been a substantial improvement in computational and modeling
capability in the last 10 years, since that paper was published) After
all, the paper says "Further experiment and analysis is obviously needed
to resolve this problem."

I was ony trying to pick up if the annual variation in frequency take place
or not.

The reason is simply. The diurnal variation are in agreement with the
Michelson-Gale experiment. The annuall should be null like the famous MM.
S*

On 11/16/2011 10:57 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Jim napisal w wiadomosci
...
On 11/15/2011 12:56 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Jim napisal w wiadomosci
n

You mean when earth is generally heading "towards" the galactic center
vs
when earth is heading "away" from the galactic center?

Yes. But on the Earth orbit are places when this speed is 0.5 km/s (only
rotation) or 30 km/s. (orbital speed).

People doing deep space navigation deal with this all the time, since
navigation is done by measuring the frequency of the received signal
from
the spacecraft. There's nothing special about it. spacecraft on some
heliocentric trajectory, Earth on a different heliocentric trajectory.

Like the Earth and Mars.

Yes, and, for instance, they measure the Doppler shift in the signals
radiated from spacecraft/rovers in orbit/on the surface of Mars as they
arrive at earth.

Do they published the results?

Sure..
Some are in that paper you cited.


As expected, the Doppler has several components: one from the rotation of
Earth, one from the rotation of Mars (for a surface asset), and one from
the relative motion of Mars and Earth (which is periodic with about a 2
year, 2 month period)

I am asking about "one from the relative motion of Mars and Earth "

I imagine so, although I don't know where one get the data off hand.
But they archive and publish pretty much everything that comes down
along with all the radiometric data (doppler, phase, signal strength) in
various and sundry mission data repositories. getting it in a
convenient translated form might take some work.




No surprises, nothing unusual. In fact, *tiny* variations in the Doppler
are used to compute the orbit around planets, and from that, infer the
internal structure of the planet. Juno is going to Jupiter right now to do
this, and the Doppler will be measured with a precision of about 1 part in
1E15 (measured over 100-1000 seconds).


Measure frequency shift, they use to determine spacecraft trajectory by
applying (mostly) Newtonian physics (you do have to use relativistic
corrections to get the last gnat's eyelash of precision).

They confirm the diurnal changings in the frequency. But what with the
annual?

All changes in frequency, of course. Load up the SPICE kernels, run the
numerical integration, and the expected frequency pops out.

I am interested only in the measured results.


Look for what's called Level 0 telemetry data from your missions of choice.



Here they confirm the diurnal variation in the frequency.

Probably in this paper is also the answer for my question: "And what
about
the 365 days period (annual variation in the frequency)?
Unfortunately I am not an expert in radio. Do you know the answer?

Do you want to know the magnitude of the shift?

The measured value.




They wrote (page 37): "
Fig. 17, which shows the aP residuals from a value for aP of

(7.7760.16)31028 cm/s2. The data was processed using

ODP-SIGMA with a batch-sequential filter and smoothing algorithm.

The solution for aP was obtained using 1-day batch

sizes. Also shown are the maneuver times. At early times the

annual term is largest. During Interval II, the interval of the

large spin-rate change anomaly, coherent oscillation is lost.

During Interval III the oscillation is smaller and begins to die"

I "read the entire paper" but I do not and understand if the above "During
Interval III the oscillation is smaller and begins to die" means that the
annual variation in frequency die when the spacecraft was very far.


Dunno..


I was ony trying to pick up if the annual variation in frequency take place
or not.

The "anomaly" variation or the "variation due to earth in its orbit"? I
suppose the answer to both is "yes"



The reason is simply. The diurnal variation are in agreement with the
Michelson-Gale experiment. The annuall should be null like the famous MM.

If you need raw data, you'll need to look for it. I'd suggest starting
with the Planetary Data System http://pds.jpl.nasa.gov/

Maybe the stuff at NAIF (Navigation and Ancillary Information Facility)
might help.

There's a lot of stuff out there, but, for instance, I ran across the
raw Radio Occultation Original Data Records from Ulysses. It has a
description including: "These data are
obtained from the Radio Science Support group at JPL. They consist
of time-ordered, high-time resolution Doppler data from special
radio science receivers (so-called 'open loop' data)."

There's a lot more description online and that's probably not a data set
you're looking for, but the data is out there, if you're willing to go
digging through it. I doubt anyone is going to give you exactly what
you're looking for, though. You'll have to do some conversion, and
you'll need to know a fair amount about how all the tracking systems
work, but that's all published. You might start with the DSN 810-005
online document (google for it).. That will tell you how they record the
data and the format.


A more recent data set is from MRO
"This data set contains archival raw, partially processed, and
ancillary/supporting radio science data acquired during the Mars
Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) mission. The radio observations were
carried out using the MRO spacecraft and Earth-based receiving stations
of the NASA Deep Space Network (DSN). The data set was designed
primarily to support generation of high-resolution gravity field models
for Mars and secondarily for estimating density and structure of the
Mars atmosphere. Of most interest are likely to be the Orbit Data Files
and Radio Science Receiver files in the ODF and RSR directories,
respectively, which provided the raw input to gravity and atmospheric
investigations, as well as the ionospheric and tropospheric media
calibration files in the ION and TRO directories, respectively."

http://starbrite.jpl.nasa.gov/pds/vi...SS-1-MAGR-V1.0

Among the stuff in that particular data set is:
" The ODF is a compressed version of the TNF. It contains the most
important information (range, Doppler and frequency ramps)
needed by spacecraft investigators, and investigators interested
in determining gravity fields. Each ODF is accompanied by a full
PDS label which describes both the content and format of the
associated file. ODF data fields include:

Narrowband spacecraft VLBI, Doppler mode (cycles)
Narrowband spacecraft VLBI, phase mode (cycles)
Narrowband quasar VLBI, Doppler mode (cycles)
Narrowband quasar VLBI, phase mode (cycles)
Wideband spacecraft VLBI (nanoseconds)
Wideband quasar VLBI (nanoseconds)
One-way Doppler (Hertz)
Two-way Doppler (Hertz)
Three-way Doppler (Hertz)
One-way total count phase (cycles)
Two-way total count phase (cycles)
Three-way total count phase (cycles)
PRA planetary operational discrete spectrum range (range
units)
SRA planetary operational discrete spectrum range (range
units)
RE(GSTDN) range (nanoseconds)
Azimuth angle (degrees)
Elevation angle (degrees)
Hour angle (degrees)
Declination angle (degrees)
"


So there you have all the VLBI and doppler info you're looking for.

The actual data files are at
http://pds-geosciences.wustl.edu/mro...v1/mrors_0xxx/
(There's a link at the PDS catalog entry)

There's documentation on the format of the ODF files, and I see that
they actually give you Doppler and range observables, rather than raw
counts, which is nice.

Knock yourself out...

"Jim Lux" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On 11/16/2011 10:57 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Jim napisal w wiadomosci
...
On 11/15/2011 12:56 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Jim napisal w wiadomosci
n

You mean when earth is generally heading "towards" the galactic center
vs
when earth is heading "away" from the galactic center?

Yes. But on the Earth orbit are places when this speed is 0.5 km/s
(only
rotation) or 30 km/s. (orbital speed).

People doing deep space navigation deal with this all the time, since
navigation is done by measuring the frequency of the received signal
from
the spacecraft. There's nothing special about it. spacecraft on some
heliocentric trajectory, Earth on a different heliocentric trajectory.

Like the Earth and Mars.

Yes, and, for instance, they measure the Doppler shift in the signals
radiated from spacecraft/rovers in orbit/on the surface of Mars as they
arrive at earth.

Do they published the results?

Sure..
Some are in that paper you cited.


As expected, the Doppler has several components: one from the rotation
of
Earth, one from the rotation of Mars (for a surface asset), and one from
the relative motion of Mars and Earth (which is periodic with about a 2
year, 2 month period)

I am asking about "one from the relative motion of Mars and Earth "

I imagine so, although I don't know where one get the data off hand. But
they archive and publish pretty much everything that comes down along with
all the radiometric data (doppler, phase, signal strength) in various and
sundry mission data repositories. getting it in a convenient translated
form might take some work.

I am not able to do any work in the data.
I will be waiting as somebody do it.

No surprises, nothing unusual. In fact, *tiny* variations in the
Doppler
are used to compute the orbit around planets, and from that, infer the
internal structure of the planet. Juno is going to Jupiter right now to
do
this, and the Doppler will be measured with a precision of about 1 part
in
1E15 (measured over 100-1000 seconds).


Measure frequency shift, they use to determine spacecraft trajectory
by
applying (mostly) Newtonian physics (you do have to use relativistic
corrections to get the last gnat's eyelash of precision).

They confirm the diurnal changings in the frequency. But what with the
annual?

All changes in frequency, of course. Load up the SPICE kernels, run the
numerical integration, and the expected frequency pops out.

I am interested only in the measured results.


Look for what's called Level 0 telemetry data from your missions of
choice.



Here they confirm the diurnal variation in the frequency.

Probably in this paper is also the answer for my question: "And what
about
the 365 days period (annual variation in the frequency)?
Unfortunately I am not an expert in radio. Do you know the answer?

Do you want to know the magnitude of the shift?

The measured value.




They wrote (page 37): "
Fig. 17, which shows the aP residuals from a value for aP of

(7.7760.16)31028 cm/s2. The data was processed using

ODP-SIGMA with a batch-sequential filter and smoothing algorithm.

The solution for aP was obtained using 1-day batch

sizes. Also shown are the maneuver times. At early times the

annual term is largest. During Interval II, the interval of the

large spin-rate change anomaly, coherent oscillation is lost.

During Interval III the oscillation is smaller and begins to die"

I "read the entire paper" but I do not and understand if the above
"During
Interval III the oscillation is smaller and begins to die" means that the
annual variation in frequency die when the spacecraft was very far.


Dunno..


I was ony trying to pick up if the annual variation in frequency take
place
or not.

The "anomaly" variation or the "variation due to earth in its orbit"? I
suppose the answer to both is "yes"

But it is not clearly stated.



The reason is simply. The diurnal variation are in agreement with the
Michelson-Gale experiment. The annuall should be null like the famous MM.

If you need raw data, you'll need to look for it. I'd suggest starting
with the Planetary Data System http://pds.jpl.nasa.gov/

Maybe the stuff at NAIF (Navigation and Ancillary Information Facility)
might help.

There's a lot of stuff out there, but, for instance, I ran across the raw
Radio Occultation Original Data Records from Ulysses. It has a
description including: "These data are
obtained from the Radio Science Support group at JPL. They consist
of time-ordered, high-time resolution Doppler data from special
radio science receivers (so-called 'open loop' data)."

There's a lot more description online and that's probably not a data set
you're looking for, but the data is out there, if you're willing to go
digging through it. I doubt anyone is going to give you exactly what
you're looking for, though.

They confirm the diurnal oscilations.
They do not mention the annual.
So I assume that the annual are null.

You'll have to do some conversion, and
you'll need to know a fair amount about how all the tracking systems work,
but that's all published. You might start with the DSN 810-005 online
document (google for it).. That will tell you how they record the data and
the format.


A more recent data set is from MRO
"This data set contains archival raw, partially processed, and
ancillary/supporting radio science data acquired during the Mars
Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) mission. The radio observations were carried
out using the MRO spacecraft and Earth-based receiving stations of the
NASA Deep Space Network (DSN). The data set was designed primarily to
support generation of high-resolution gravity field models for Mars and
secondarily for estimating density and structure of the Mars atmosphere.
Of most interest are likely to be the Orbit Data Files and Radio Science
Receiver files in the ODF and RSR directories, respectively, which
provided the raw input to gravity and atmospheric investigations, as well
as the ionospheric and tropospheric media calibration files in the ION and
TRO directories, respectively."

http://starbrite.jpl.nasa.gov/pds/vi...SS-1-MAGR-V1.0

Among the stuff in that particular data set is:
" The ODF is a compressed version of the TNF. It contains the most
important information (range, Doppler and frequency ramps)
needed by spacecraft investigators, and investigators interested
in determining gravity fields. Each ODF is accompanied by a full
PDS label which describes both the content and format of the
associated file. ODF data fields include:

Narrowband spacecraft VLBI, Doppler mode (cycles)
Narrowband spacecraft VLBI, phase mode (cycles)
Narrowband quasar VLBI, Doppler mode (cycles)
Narrowband quasar VLBI, phase mode (cycles)
Wideband spacecraft VLBI (nanoseconds)
Wideband quasar VLBI (nanoseconds)
One-way Doppler (Hertz)
Two-way Doppler (Hertz)
Three-way Doppler (Hertz)
One-way total count phase (cycles)
Two-way total count phase (cycles)
Three-way total count phase (cycles)
PRA planetary operational discrete spectrum range (range
units)
SRA planetary operational discrete spectrum range (range
units)
RE(GSTDN) range (nanoseconds)
Azimuth angle (degrees)
Elevation angle (degrees)
Hour angle (degrees)
Declination angle (degrees)
"


So there you have all the VLBI and doppler info you're looking for.

The actual data files are at
http://pds-geosciences.wustl.edu/mro...v1/mrors_0xxx/
(There's a link at the PDS catalog entry)

There's documentation on the format of the ODF files, and I see that they
actually give you Doppler and range observables, rather than raw counts,
which is nice.

The answer I am loking for is not important for me.
I have come accros an information that astronomers add the orbital speed of
the Earth to the radial speed of stars measured with the spectrographic
method.
The radio method are the same like the spectrography. But it contradicts
MMX. So I am trying to clear it.
S*

On 11/17/2011 9:29 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Jim napisal w wiadomosci
I imagine so, although I don't know where one get the data off hand. But
they archive and publish pretty much everything that comes down along with
all the radiometric data (doppler, phase, signal strength) in various and
sundry mission data repositories. getting it in a convenient translated
form might take some work.

I am not able to do any work in the data.
I will be waiting as somebody do it.



Giant snip of places where you can find the data you asked about



The answer I am loking for is not important for me.
I have come accros an information that astronomers add the orbital speed of
the Earth to the radial speed of stars measured with the spectrographic
method.
The radio method are the same like the spectrography. But it contradicts
MMX. So I am trying to clear it.


Uh.. no.. you have a theory or question, but aren't willing or able to
do the work (or find someone else to do the work) to actual resolve the
issue.

Tons of data
Tons of analysis out there

You've got a question, you need to answer it.
(or, just wait until someone else happens to answer it for you...)

On 11/17/2011 2:15 PM, Jim Lux wrote:

snip nonsense from someone who has never produced anything but


Uh.. no.. you have a theory or question, but aren't willing or able to
do the work (or find someone else to do the work) to actual resolve the
issue.

Tons of data
Tons of analysis out there

You've got a question, you need to answer it.
(or, just wait until someone else happens to answer it for you...)



Nice. Succinct and to the point. Unfortunately wasted on him.

tom
K0TAR