I was thinking about using fiberglass reinforced body filler as an insulator and was hoping someone here may have some experience doing the same. It would be used to support the low impedance end of a gamma match. Power level not to excede 200 watts HF.

JImmie

On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 12:17:28 -0700 (PDT), JIMMIE
wrote:

I was thinking about using fiberglass reinforced body
filler as an insulator and was hoping someone here
may have some experience doing the same. It would be
used to support the low impedance end of a gamma match.
Power level not to excede 200 watts HF.

There shouldn't be much voltage at the gamma match feed point.

Which fiberglass filled body putty where you considering?
http://3mcollision.com/products/fillers-and-glaze/reinforced-fillers

Looking at the various MSDS sheets, it looks like a reasonable
insulator that's not going to absorb moisture.
My comments and guesswork in [xxxx]:

1,3-ISOBENZOFURANDIONE, POLYMER WITH 2,5-FURANDIONE AND
2,2'-OXYBIS[ETHANOL] 30 - 60%

[The volatile solvents.]

TALC 10 - 30%

[Good insulator. Steatite insulators are baked talc.]

STYRENE MONOMER 10 - 30%

[Styrene monomer is probably propylene oxide. I couldn't find
anything in its electrial properties. My guess(tm) is that it's quite
good as styrene plastics are sometimes used as insulators.]

MAGNESIUM CARBONATE 10 - 30%

[That's chalk. It's hygroscopic and absorbs moisture. It's probably
there to remove any water from the talc, which will make talc
conductive.]

CHLORITE (MINERAL) 1 - 5%

[That's a harder form of talc. My guess(tm) is that it serves the
same purpose as the soft talc, but is there to help prevent shrinkage
during hardening. I'm not sure this is correct.]

FIBERGLASS Mixture 1 - 5%

[There's the fiberglass filler. Of course, glass is a good insulator.
However, I don't think 1-5% fiberglass by weight is going to add much
insulating ability to the mix. You might as well use Bondo, without
the filler.]

FIBER 0.5 - 1.5%

[Same as fiberglass]

OXIDE GLASS 0.1 - 1.0%

[Any of a dozen glass oxides. All are good insulators]


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 09:45:30 +0100, Jeff wrote:

Put a sample in the microwave and see if it get hot, it may be an
insulator but it also may be lossy at rf.
Jeff

That's a good way to determine if it will work at 2.4GHz. However,
this is for HF, which is about 1/500th of 2.4GHz. Some insulators
that fail at 2.4Ghz (PVC, nylon, phenolic, wood, bakelite), work just
fine at HF frequencies. In general, if it passes at 2.4GHz, it will
probably work at HF. However, if it fails, it may still work at HF.

There's also the potential problem of volatiles and solvents. Some of
the components in the body putty are hygroscopic (absorbs moisture).
When baked in a microwave oven, the water and solvents may boil,
resulting in cracking or crumbling. Residual ethanol solvent might
make an interesting bang. Microwave baking is a fair test to see if
the body filler will handle 1KW of RF at 2.4GHz, but might be a bit
overkill for 200 watts at HF.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 19:47:03 +0100, Jeff wrote:

On 09/06/2012 17:53, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 09:45:30 +0100, wrote:

Put a sample in the microwave and see if it get hot, it may be an
insulator but it also may be lossy at rf.
Jeff

That's a good way to determine if it will work at 2.4GHz. However,
this is for HF, which is about 1/500th of 2.4GHz. Some insulators
that fail at 2.4Ghz (PVC, nylon, phenolic, wood, bakelite), work just
fine at HF frequencies. In general, if it passes at 2.4GHz, it will
probably work at HF. However, if it fails, it may still work at HF.

Loss tangent does not generally vary much with frequency unless there is
a lot of water content or similar, that is to say that it is linear
against frequency, so it is not a case of pass or fail, it is just how
hot does it get when scaled to HF.

Loss tangent (dissipation factor) can increase or decrease with
frequency depending on material. It's measured at 1KHz, but can be
almost anything by the time it gets to microwave frequencies. For
example, glass:
http://psec.uchicago.edu/glass/tanDelta_vs_freq_edited.bmp

There's also the potential problem of volatiles and solvents. Some of
the components in the body putty are hygroscopic (absorbs moisture).

Well if they do they will not be good even at HF.

Time to define "good". The OP proposes to use Bondo at the low
impedance end of a gamma match. That's 50 ohms. It would
considerable conductivity to put anything in parallel with 50 ohms to
have an effect.

Even placing an obvious conductor between the 50 terminals isn't going
to do much. For example, I could place a water balloon full of salt
water between the 50 ohm terminals. As long as rubber provides
sufficient insulation, there will be no dielectric loss. It might arc
over or add some capacitance depending on size, but it won't conduct
RF.

However, were he to propose using Bondo at the junction of the
matching tap section and the tuning capacitor where it hits the driven
element, there will be problems. The gamma match is a series resonant
tuned circuit at this point with high voltage across the capacitor. In
effect, the Bondo would act as part of the capacitor dielectric at
high voltages. Bondo is not suitable for building capacitors.

When baked in a microwave oven, the water and solvents may boil,
resulting in cracking or crumbling.

Not a problem if it is just a test sample, but if they absorb water they
will be a poor insulator.

Not exactly. A water soaked insulator is certain a potential problem.
Yet, there are perfectly usable insulators that contain water. For
example, concrete, bricks, and some pottery are contain considerable
water, but are tolerable insulators, especially if glazed. HF has no
effect on the water because there is insufficient energy at 2-30MHz to
convince the water molecule to vibrate. The higher the frequency, the
higher the energy:
E = Plank's-constant * speed-o-light / wavelength
While building an HF antenna structure out of bricks is feasible, I
would not suggest you place a brick in a microwave oven. It will get
hot and eventually crumble as the water evaporates. For a higher
speed example, just hit a brick or concrete block with a oxy-acetylene
torch and be prepared to duck as pieces fly out as the water explodes.

Residual ethanol solvent might
make an interesting bang.

I think we must be thinking about a different type of filler, all of the
glass fibre fillers I have come across do not contain ethanol, they are
2 part; styrene monomer and organic peroxide hardener

Please re-read my summor of the contents from the MSDS sheets. The
stuff is 30-60% ethanol solvent by weight. That's needed to keep the
mix flexible and compliant. As it evaporates, the Bondo hardens.
However, if some residue remains, such as the result of applying the
Bondo in too thick a layer, there is a real possibility of a gas
explosion.

Jeff


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 13:20:26 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Not exactly. A water soaked insulator is certain a potential problem.
Yet, there are perfectly usable insulators that contain water. For
example, concrete, bricks, and some pottery are contain considerable
water, but are tolerable insulators, especially if glazed. HF has no
effect on the water because there is insufficient energy at 2-30MHz to
convince the water molecule to vibrate. The higher the frequency, the
higher the energy:
E = Plank's-constant * speed-o-light / wavelength
While building an HF antenna structure out of bricks is feasible, I
would not suggest you place a brick in a microwave oven. It will get
hot and eventually crumble as the water evaporates.

Well, I lied. Apparently it only gets hot and does not crumble:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCRBeo2hsmU
(7 mins). This has to be the most boring YouTube video ever. However,
watching the author get burned by the brick when he tries to remove
the brick from the oven is priceless.

Also, not that power line insulators are quite hygroscopic (absorbs
moisture). The surface glazing is a good moisture barrier so the
insulator insides remain quite dry. However, even a small crack in
the glazing will eventually introduce enough water into the inside to
cause arcing.

Please re-read my summor of the contents from the MSDS sheets.

Oops... that should be "summary".


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 6/8/2012 2:17 PM, JIMMIE wrote:
I was thinking about using fiberglass reinforced body filler as an insulator and was hoping someone here may have some experience doing the same. It would be used to support the low impedance end of a gamma match. Power level not to excede 200 watts HF.

JImmie

Should work OK. I vaguely recall doing it myself once years ago.
I forgot what I did, but I think I had to strengthen a base
insulator on a vertical that was fixing to break or something like
that. Or maybe I had a make a base insulator from scratch..
I forgot..
I used fiberglass body filler that had strands of fiberglass
mixed with the liquid stuff. It was fairly strong once dry,
and I don't recall having any problems with the insulating
properties.

On Friday, June 8, 2012 7:17:28 PM UTC, JIMMIE wrote:
I was thinking about using fiberglass reinforced body filler as an insulator and was hoping someone here may have some experience doing the same. It would be used to support the low impedance end of a gamma match. Power level not to excede 200 watts HF.

JImmie

Made a trip down to the local electrical supply place and they had a deal on some odds & ends stand off insulators that I could imagine being machined into what I needed. Cleared there junk table of them for $10. Seems to be made of fiberglass reinforced plastic.

Jimmie

First don't get to hung up on ingredients look at what it becomes after the reaction which is polyester.
If you need the part to have adhesion or be structural or just stronger you could thicken epoxy resin with talc, chalk, glass micro balloons, silica, chopped glass fiber.

The sun is not nice to unfinished-unprotected polyesters or epoxides So you should consider the RF properties of what ever you will use to protect the part from UV.
The parts you bought are still made of the same type material so you still need to consider protecting them where you have machined away the outer layer.
Regarding the ingredients:
2,2'-OXYBIS[ETHANOL] is a reactant not a solvent (and not ethanol)
1,3-ISOBENZOFURANDIONE and 2,5-FURANDIONE are organic acid anhydrides.
Styrene monomer is styrene (AKA vinyl benzene or phenyl ethene).

The talc and chalk minerals are to thicken the mixture and make sanding shaping the hardened piece easier.

Most paints are insulative or at least non-conductive and should be fine.
The filler should be fine also.