Hi
I know it is a bit off topic but I know a lot of knowledge here and the
boating groups seem finished.

I have three batteries for my boats, two are the larger sized 12volt deep
cycle, the heavier ones (about 50 lbs) about 700 something amp. Nautalis
from Canadian Tire, the other is the regular size deep cycle 12volt (about
30lb) .
The battery charger is the Canadian tire 2amp/10amp automatic charger. Has
setting for deepcycle batteries.

Because both those heavy batteries (4 years old) were drained very low,
almost dead it took about a week to charge one of them before the green
light came on on the charger. They always measured 12v and always kept fluid
full. Both batteries charged fully in about a week with that charger (about
5 days each) at 10 amps. Sometimes I switch the charger to 2 amps (high
power rates).

The other regular sized boat battery (for my 70hp outboard) is about 5
years, always shows 12v and full, and charged up np and green light came on.

I put all three on the shelf in the garage here in Ontario and tapped the
batteries together in parellel and put the charger back on the center
battery and haven't seen the green light come on that charger now for over a
week. I keep it on 10amps overnight because cheaper rate, then switch to 2
amps for the day, then weekends 10amps solid.

Why no green light? Was green light when individually charged them.

I know the smaller battery is much less amps than the other two (pair)
batteries.

My objective was to bring them all up to charge (green light) then keep them
in storage in the garage with the one amp charger I have from Canadian tire
and keep it there all winter on the 1amp charger 24,7.

Any ideas why the batch of them aren't coming to green light? And is that a
good storage idea?

Thanks for any ideas,,

73s

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 20:09:35 -0500, "Tom" wrote:

Any ideas why the batch of them aren't coming to green light?

Nope, no ideas.
Could I trouble you for the make and model of the battery charger?

http://www.batteryuniversity.com
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:06:40 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 20:09:35 -0500, "Tom" wrote:

Any ideas why the batch of them aren't coming to green light?

Nope, no ideas.
Could I trouble you for the make and model of the battery charger?

Found your charger:
http://www.canadiantire.com/AST/browse/4/Auto/3/Batteries/BatteryChargers/PRDOVR~0111503P/MotoMaster+10%2B2A+Automatic+Battery+Charger.jsp?l ocale=en
Where do you have the switch set?
Conventional or AGM-Deep Cycle?
Does it match the type of battery? If you're not sure, the make and
model number of the batteries please?

http://www.batteryuniversity.com
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery

I don't trust that type of cheapo battery charger.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/dead-battery-chargers.html
All but one in the picture were either blown, or have successfully
killed at least one battery. One boiled all the water out of a
battery. They're all junk. I took a few apart to see what was
inside, but all eventually went to the recyclers. Your Canadian Tire
charger is probably something similar, except in a metal case. Buy
something with a microprocessor, temperature compensation, battery
temp sensor, multi-stage charging, automatic (so you can leave it
connected) etc. Plan on burning at least $200. You'll probably save
that much by not killing batteries.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

In article ,
"Tom" wrote:

I put all three on the shelf in the garage here in Ontario and tapped the
batteries together in parellel and put the charger back on the center
battery and haven't seen the green light come on that charger now for over a
week.

It's not a good idea to put lead acid batteries in parallel unless hefty
build-out diodes are used in series with each one of them before they
are connected in parallel. If the batteries are expected to be
discharged during use, the diodes should be arranged to let current flow
out of each battery but not into it. If the batteries are expected to be
charged during use, the diodes should be arranged to let current flow
into each battery but not out of it. The batteries have *EXTREMELY* low
internal resistance and there is no chance whatsoever that their
internal effective voltages will be absolutely identical. Absent the
diodes, whichever battery wants to have a higher terminal voltage will
discharge like mad into the others, until all their terminal voltages
are the same. Then you will have a badly discharged battery and one or
more charged ones, all in parallele. Until then, make sure the wires you
use are large, since the current flowing is going to be high. Not a good
situation.

Charging batteries in series instead of in parallel has its own
problems, but they're not as serious as the problem I have just
mentioned. The worst problem with charging N batteries in series is that
you need N times as much voltage from the charger as you would have
needed charging them one at a time.

David

--
David Ryeburn

To send e-mail, change "netz" to "net"

Happy new year

Thanks for the information.

This is the charger I have.

http://reviews.canadiantire.ca/9045/...ws/reviews.htm

I know not the best charger, Can you guys recommend a proper storage
procedure for my three deep cycle batteries? Two are the larger sized ones,
looks like this one only with 700something amps listed on it. Might be the
model before this one. Both mine are 4 years old.


http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brows....jsp?locale=en


The third battery is a regular sized 12v deep cycle, smaller than the two
big ones, regular sized.

Hope you gents can recommend a charging or storage procedure for our short
Ontario winter. I prefer to keep them in the garage, not heated but
convenient.

Should I simply bring each up to green light ( charger stops charging) then
store them and do this once a month? Canadian Tire stores say to do this. Or
should I keep them in parellel, after fully charged and keep the 1amp
charger on constant. Canadian tire also recommends this. I don't think they
are as knowledgable as you folks, I know that 100%. That is why I am asking
you folks your opinions and I appreciate it.

73s, best regards and happy new year









"David Ryeburn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Tom" wrote:

I put all three on the shelf in the garage here in Ontario and tapped the
batteries together in parellel and put the charger back on the center
battery and haven't seen the green light come on that charger now for
over a
week.

It's not a good idea to put lead acid batteries in parallel unless hefty
build-out diodes are used in series with each one of them before they
are connected in parallel. If the batteries are expected to be
discharged during use, the diodes should be arranged to let current flow
out of each battery but not into it. If the batteries are expected to be
charged during use, the diodes should be arranged to let current flow
into each battery but not out of it. The batteries have *EXTREMELY* low
internal resistance and there is no chance whatsoever that their
internal effective voltages will be absolutely identical. Absent the
diodes, whichever battery wants to have a higher terminal voltage will
discharge like mad into the others, until all their terminal voltages
are the same. Then you will have a badly discharged battery and one or
more charged ones, all in parallele. Until then, make sure the wires you
use are large, since the current flowing is going to be high. Not a good
situation.

Charging batteries in series instead of in parallel has its own
problems, but they're not as serious as the problem I have just
mentioned. The worst problem with charging N batteries in series is that
you need N times as much voltage from the charger as you would have
needed charging them one at a time.

David

--
David Ryeburn

To send e-mail, change "netz" to "net"

FWIW, I store batteries in my basement over the winter. About every two
weeks I place a small "half-way intelligent" charger on each, in turn, and
bring each up to "full". I think your parallel charging is not a good idea
and may have partly destroyed one of the batteries. Diode protection (for
charging in parallel) might work, but it will probably change the voltages
involved and may confuse an intelligent charger. I suggest individual
charging.

Bill
W2WO

Hi
Thanks for the tips,

I was worried about storing in the basement because of the fumes that come
from them. I figured when charging and their bubbling that adds a lot of
chemical fumes into the home. Is that a concern?

Going to unplug that system I have in the garage now, I hope I haven't done
any damage and was wondering why each battery came to green light
individually but when put in parellel it hasn't came to greenlight for over
a week. I hope I haven't destroyed them. And even though those chaps at
Canadian Tire recommend this, I understand they haven't an engineering
degree in marine batteries, but thankful I get opinions from this group,
thanks for the tips,

73s





"Bill Ogden" wrote in message
...
FWIW, I store batteries in my basement over the winter. About every two
weeks I place a small "half-way intelligent" charger on each, in turn, and
bring each up to "full". I think your parallel charging is not a good
idea and may have partly destroyed one of the batteries. Diode protection
(for charging in parallel) might work, but it will probably change the
voltages involved and may confuse an intelligent charger. I suggest
individual charging.

Bill
W2WO

Battery charging???

Group: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, Jan 1, 2013, 11:52am From:
(Tom)
Hi
Thanks for the tips,
I was worried about storing in the basement because of the fumes that
come from them. I figured when charging and their bubbling that adds a
lot of chemical fumes into the home. Is that a concern?
Going to unplug that system I have in the garage now, I hope I haven't
done any damage and was wondering why each battery came to green light
individually but when put in parellel it hasn't came to greenlight for
over a week. I hope I haven't destroyed them. And even though those
chaps at Canadian Tire recommend this, I understand they haven't an
engineering degree in marine batteries, but thankful I get opinions from
this group, thanks for the tips,
73s
"Bill Ogden" wrote in message
...
FWIW, I store batteries in my basement over the winter. About every two
weeks I place a small "half-way intelligent" charger on each, in turn,
and bring each up to "full". I think your parallel charging is not a
good idea and may have partly destroyed one of the batteries. Diode
protection (for charging in parallel) might work, but it will probably
change the voltages involved and may confuse an intelligent charger. I
suggest individual charging.
Bill
W2WO

=================

That bubling is probably hydrogen gas, which is basicaly nontoxic but
explosive. If you have ANY source of ignition in your basement, I would
be VERY concerned!
You need ventiliation to get the hydrogen out.

--
"A man who can own a gun is a citizen. A man who cannot own a gun is a
subject."--

Unknown

On Tue, 1 Jan 2013 11:52:00 -0500, "Tom" wrote:

I was worried about storing in the basement because of the fumes that come
from them. I figured when charging and their bubbling that adds a lot of
chemical fumes into the home. Is that a concern?

Yes, it's a concern. I've done it the wrong way a few times. The
result was a battery box with severely corroded hardware. That's why
battery boxes are usually plastic or wood. No explosions because the
box is vented to the outside air. Hydrogen is lighter than air and
will rise easily out of a vented box.

Our radio club's battery "pile":
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com/k6bj/K6BJ%20Repeater/slides/Batteries.html

This might give you some ideas:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=battery+box

You might also get some hints from the alternative energy groups that
often store their batteries in the basement.
https://homepower.com
There are various schemes involving filtered battery vent plugs,
manifolds, dryers, and absorbers.

Wooden battery box with vent:
http://www.oynot.com/battery-box.html
I'm not thrilled with this method but it probably works:
http://www.oynot.com/battery-box-venting.html

Also, I missed the part where you were trying to charge two batteries
in parallel. Don't do that, at least not with your simple charger.
However, if you must do it, there are numerous articles on the
internet on charging batteries in parallel.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Thank you fine gentlemen

I certainly learned a lot about recharging deep cycle batteries and lots of
great recommendations.

Thanks for all the recommendations and suggestions.

73s






"Jim Higgins" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 20:09:35 -0500, "Tom" wrote:

Hi
I know it is a bit off topic but I know a lot of knowledge here and the
boating groups seem finished.

I have three batteries for my boats, two are the larger sized 12volt deep
cycle, the heavier ones (about 50 lbs) about 700 something amp. Nautalis
from Canadian Tire, the other is the regular size deep cycle 12volt (about
30lb) .
The battery charger is the Canadian tire 2amp/10amp automatic charger. Has
setting for deepcycle batteries.

Because both those heavy batteries (4 years old) were drained very low,
almost dead


Very deep discharge runs the risk of developing shorts thru the
separators (glass mats) that can prevent the batteries ever again
achieving full charge. Such batteries will also not hold a charge.


it took about a week to charge one of them before the green
light came on on the charger. They always measured 12v and always kept
fluid
full. Both batteries charged fully in about a week with that charger
(about
5 days each) at 10 amps. Sometimes I switch the charger to 2 amps (high
power rates).


Question... when you say 10 amps and 2 amps, are you referring just to
the name of the setting or can you confirm that 2 amps and 10 amps of
current were actually flowing. Does the charger have an ammeter?


The other regular sized boat battery (for my 70hp outboard) is about 5
years, always shows 12v and full, and charged up np and green light came
on.

I put all three on the shelf in the garage here in Ontario and tapped the
batteries together in parellel and put the charger back on the center
battery and haven't seen the green light come on that charger now for over
a
week. I keep it on 10amps overnight because cheaper rate, then switch to 2
amps for the day, then weekends 10amps solid.

Why no green light? Was green light when individually charged them.

I know the smaller battery is much less amps than the other two (pair)
batteries.

That last bit isn't an issue in and of itself.

What's the temperature in your garage? What's the voltage of the
batteries with the charger connected and operating? How much charge
current is flowing? (I'm not asking you for the charge setting, but
rather for ACTUAL current flow.)


My objective was to bring them all up to charge (green light) then keep
them
in storage in the garage with the one amp charger I have from Canadian
tire
and keep it there all winter on the 1amp charger 24,7.

A reasonable goal assuming the 1-amp charger cuts off at a battery
voltage that doesn't result in excessive gassing, otherwise spring
will find 3 dried up batteries. It also assumes 1 amp is adequate to
keep these OLD batteries fully charged. And it assumes the voltage
this charger is capable of putting out, and the voltage setting within
it, is adequate for a battery sitting in a COLD garage. You need a
higher voltage to fully charge and maintain a cold battery.


Any ideas why the batch of them aren't coming to green light? And is that
a
good storage idea?

Read the above carefully and answer all questions and we'll be closer
to figuring that out. Do NOT make assumptions about the current that
is flowing. If you aren't able to read it on a meter, you need to say
so clearly. When you measure voltages it would be nice to see a
number to 2 places after the decimal.

One more thing you can do. Disconnect the charger over night, measure
battery voltage, then reconnect the charger and measure voltage at
regular intervals of no less than 1 hour for as long as you can. This
will tell us something about the capabilities of the charger when
operating in the cold garage. Do this AFTER measuring battery voltage
on charge (and after extended charging) as requested earlier.