hello,
I am a newcomer in amateur radio shortwave and so far
have built a dipole antenna with ladder line.

Not a G5RV, not a ZEPP, not a DOUBLE ZEPP, not a DOUBLETT,
but a dipole, a non-resonant antenna, if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately the antenna feedpoint is 25 meters away.
Now I am searching for a remote automatic tuner
for balanced feed line, aka hen's ladder, and coax input.

Presently I am using a BG-430 military Generalstab radio tuner.
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...em_se_430.html
It is the lower right foto, the thing in the center with the 4 black
feet. Works only 80 and 40 meters.
In more detail:
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...geraet_ag.html
Look at the schematic, upper part.
The input coax connects to the "balun" transformer,
and two variometer coils connect to the antenna output.

I have not been able to find anything useable on the market.
SGC tuners are ruled out, they are strictly for long wires
and nothing else. They make their money with the UN and other
mobile militaries, amateurs are not existent for them.
Amateurs use dipoles and ladder lines.
No, you can't use an SGC on a dipole.
If you do, you are wasting your money.

What rermains are MFJ and LDG coax tuners in combination
with a 1:4 balanced transformer. Thus the 25 m coax line would see
a fine SWR and no losses due to reflections. The coax from the tuner
output to the balun input make very short to avoid reflection losses.
Very high voltages will oscillate there!

What I like less is the balun at the high end, would prefer
a symmetric tuner with a balun at the coax input and balanced
symmetric output, like the Zellweger tuner does.
The MFJ-974HB is also a fine thing.
Really symmetrical at the tuning circuits, but manual.

100 Watt are fine, 400 Watt are better. (Maximum in Austria)
Can you help me, please?
OE8UWW

On 17/05/2015 12:53, Helmut Wabnig wrote:
I have not been able to find anything useable on the market.
SGC tuners are ruled out, they are strictly for long wires

A quick internet search shows plenty of people using SGC tuners with
dipoles getting good results. I don't think they have been told the SGC
is only for long wires.

They make their money with the UN and other
mobile militaries, amateurs are not existent for them.

Funny, I see amateur magazines stuffed with SGC adverts. Must be another
SGC doing tuners for amateurs.

Helmut Wabnig wrote:
hello,
I am a newcomer in amateur radio shortwave and so far...

I used an MFJ-949 feeding open wire line for many years and
had excellent results with it. Any of the MFJ tuners with a
built in balun will work well in your case (subject to the
amount of power you are running).

de Irv VE6BP

On 5/17/2015 6:53 AM, Helmut Wabnig wrote:
hello,
I am a newcomer in amateur radio shortwave and so far
have built a dipole antenna with ladder line.

Not a G5RV, not a ZEPP, not a DOUBLE ZEPP, not a DOUBLETT,
but a dipole, a non-resonant antenna, if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately the antenna feedpoint is 25 meters away.
Now I am searching for a remote automatic tuner
for balanced feed line, aka hen's ladder, and coax input.

Presently I am using a BG-430 military Generalstab radio tuner.
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...em_se_430.html
It is the lower right foto, the thing in the center with the 4 black
feet. Works only 80 and 40 meters.
In more detail:
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...geraet_ag.html
Look at the schematic, upper part.
The input coax connects to the "balun" transformer,
and two variometer coils connect to the antenna output.

I have not been able to find anything useable on the market.
SGC tuners are ruled out, they are strictly for long wires
and nothing else. They make their money with the UN and other
mobile militaries, amateurs are not existent for them.
Amateurs use dipoles and ladder lines.
No, you can't use an SGC on a dipole.
If you do, you are wasting your money.

What rermains are MFJ and LDG coax tuners in combination
with a 1:4 balanced transformer. Thus the 25 m coax line would see
a fine SWR and no losses due to reflections. The coax from the tuner
output to the balun input make very short to avoid reflection losses.
Very high voltages will oscillate there!

What I like less is the balun at the high end, would prefer
a symmetric tuner with a balun at the coax input and balanced
symmetric output, like the Zellweger tuner does.
The MFJ-974HB is also a fine thing.
Really symmetrical at the tuning circuits, but manual.

100 Watt are fine, 400 Watt are better. (Maximum in Austria)
Can you help me, please?
OE8UWW


I do not believe you need a remote tuner. If you feed the antenna with
some home made 600 ohm line it will have an extremely low loss. See
latest QST on this issue. I run a 75 meter loop fed with 600 ohm line. I
have had much better success with this than when it was run with window
line or before that a dipole fed with coax.

I use that loop for all bands. It works very very well. I need a loop
because I live in the middle of town. I needed to phase out local noise
coming in from the horizontal plane.

Your dipole will work quite will with a tuner of just about any brand
that has a balanced output. The losses in that 25 meter run will be too
low to matter.

"Helmut Wabnig" [email protected] --- -.dotat wrote in message
...
hello,
I am a newcomer in amateur radio shortwave and so far
have built a dipole antenna with ladder line.

Not a G5RV, not a ZEPP, not a DOUBLE ZEPP, not a DOUBLETT,
but a dipole, a non-resonant antenna, if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately the antenna feedpoint is 25 meters away.
Now I am searching for a remote automatic tuner
for balanced feed line, aka hen's ladder, and coax input.

Presently I am using a BG-430 military Generalstab radio tuner.
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...em_se_430.html
It is the lower right foto, the thing in the center with the 4 black
feet. Works only 80 and 40 meters.
In more detail:
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...geraet_ag.html
Look at the schematic, upper part.
The input coax connects to the "balun" transformer,
and two variometer coils connect to the antenna output.

I have not been able to find anything useable on the market.
SGC tuners are ruled out, they are strictly for long wires
and nothing else. They make their money with the UN and other
mobile militaries, amateurs are not existent for them.
Amateurs use dipoles and ladder lines.

Hello Helmut. I was puzzled by your comments about SGC as they are
well-known in the ham radio world.
You wrote "Amateurs use dipoles and ladder lines". Have a look at page 24 of
this PDF http://www.sgcworld.com/Publications/Manuals/230man.pdf
This shows an SGC SG-230 Smartuner being used with a dipole fed by a
balanced line feeder.





--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Sunday, May 17, 2015 at 7:53:17 AM UTC-4, Helmut Wabnig wrote:
hello,
I am a newcomer in amateur radio shortwave and so far
have built a dipole antenna with ladder line.

Not a G5RV, not a ZEPP, not a DOUBLE ZEPP, not a DOUBLETT,
but a dipole, a non-resonant antenna, if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately the antenna feedpoint is 25 meters away.
Now I am searching for a remote automatic tuner
for balanced feed line, aka hen's ladder, and coax input.

Presently I am using a BG-430 military Generalstab radio tuner.
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...em_se_430.html
It is the lower right foto, the thing in the center with the 4 black
feet. Works only 80 and 40 meters.
In more detail:
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...geraet_ag.html
Look at the schematic, upper part.
The input coax connects to the "balun" transformer,
and two variometer coils connect to the antenna output.

I have not been able to find anything useable on the market.
SGC tuners are ruled out, they are strictly for long wires
and nothing else. They make their money with the UN and other
mobile militaries, amateurs are not existent for them.
Amateurs use dipoles and ladder lines.
No, you can't use an SGC on a dipole.
If you do, you are wasting your money.

What rermains are MFJ and LDG coax tuners in combination
with a 1:4 balanced transformer. Thus the 25 m coax line would see
a fine SWR and no losses due to reflections. The coax from the tuner
output to the balun input make very short to avoid reflection losses.
Very high voltages will oscillate there!

What I like less is the balun at the high end, would prefer
a symmetric tuner with a balun at the coax input and balanced
symmetric output, like the Zellweger tuner does.
The MFJ-974HB is also a fine thing.
Really symmetrical at the tuning circuits, but manual.

100 Watt are fine, 400 Watt are better. (Maximum in Austria)
Can you help me, please?
OE8UWW

Look OM. If you have some reason that you just don't want to work with SGC that's fine. Don't work with SGC. But telling those of us that are using their products successfully that we are totally atypical is needlessly provocative.

I took a Barker & Williamson, Terminated Folded Dipole that I had been using with fair success and removed the termination resister and the balun. Since folded dipoles have a feed point impedance of Three Hundred Ohms I attached Three Hundred Ohm window line at the feed point and ran that to the terminals of a stock SGC SG-235 Auto-tuner. I went from hearing a lot of stations that I could not work to hearing a lot more stations were I could work anything that I could hear if it didn't have some sort of pile up of legal limit power stations trying to work it. I have never used an Amplifier on HF so I don't know if I could work them if I did.

The results were so good in comparison to the Terminated Folded Dipole iteration that I added a Six to one Balun and used the built in tuner in my Yaesu FT-1000 Transceiver. I have had good results with that as well and am thus able to reserve The SG-235 for the antenna kit of a transportable station that I use for Emergency Communications exercises. The SGC has worked very well for me in that service as well. Since I'm using a military surplus variable length dipole for those exercises and the SGC Coupler has never failed to obtain a match your position on the company's role in amateur radio seems misinformed.

--
Tom Horne W3TDH

On 5/17/2015 6:53 AM, Helmut Wabnig wrote:
hello,
I am a newcomer in amateur radio shortwave and so far
have built a dipole antenna with ladder line.

Not a G5RV, not a ZEPP, not a DOUBLE ZEPP, not a DOUBLETT,
but a dipole, a non-resonant antenna, if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately the antenna feedpoint is 25 meters away.
Now I am searching for a remote automatic tuner
for balanced feed line, aka hen's ladder, and coax input.

Presently I am using a BG-430 military Generalstab radio tuner.
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...em_se_430.html
It is the lower right foto, the thing in the center with the 4 black
feet. Works only 80 and 40 meters.
In more detail:
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...geraet_ag.html
Look at the schematic, upper part.
The input coax connects to the "balun" transformer,
and two variometer coils connect to the antenna output.

I have not been able to find anything useable on the market.
SGC tuners are ruled out, they are strictly for long wires
and nothing else. They make their money with the UN and other
mobile militaries, amateurs are not existent for them.
Amateurs use dipoles and ladder lines.
No, you can't use an SGC on a dipole.
If you do, you are wasting your money.

What rermains are MFJ and LDG coax tuners in combination
with a 1:4 balanced transformer. Thus the 25 m coax line would see
a fine SWR and no losses due to reflections. The coax from the tuner
output to the balun input make very short to avoid reflection losses.
Very high voltages will oscillate there!

What I like less is the balun at the high end, would prefer
a symmetric tuner with a balun at the coax input and balanced
symmetric output, like the Zellweger tuner does.
The MFJ-974HB is also a fine thing.
Really symmetrical at the tuning circuits, but manual.

100 Watt are fine, 400 Watt are better. (Maximum in Austria)
Can you help me, please?
OE8UWW


If you want technical knowledge on these subjects:

http://owenduffy.net/blog/

The left side will guide you to your item of interest, maybe. You can
either read the R/C stuff or skip it.

Cheers,
John N1JLS

On 5/17/2015 6:53 AM, Helmut Wabnig wrote:
hello,
I am a newcomer in amateur radio shortwave and so far
have built a dipole antenna with ladder line.

Not a G5RV, not a ZEPP, not a DOUBLE ZEPP, not a DOUBLETT,
but a dipole, a non-resonant antenna, if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately the antenna feedpoint is 25 meters away.
Now I am searching for a remote automatic tuner
for balanced feed line, aka hen's ladder, and coax input.

Presently I am using a BG-430 military Generalstab radio tuner.
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...em_se_430.html
It is the lower right foto, the thing in the center with the 4 black
feet. Works only 80 and 40 meters.
In more detail:
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...geraet_ag.html
Look at the schematic, upper part.
The input coax connects to the "balun" transformer,
and two variometer coils connect to the antenna output.

I have not been able to find anything useable on the market.
SGC tuners are ruled out, they are strictly for long wires
and nothing else. They make their money with the UN and other
mobile militaries, amateurs are not existent for them.
Amateurs use dipoles and ladder lines.
No, you can't use an SGC on a dipole.
If you do, you are wasting your money.

What rermains are MFJ and LDG coax tuners in combination
with a 1:4 balanced transformer. Thus the 25 m coax line would see
a fine SWR and no losses due to reflections. The coax from the tuner
output to the balun input make very short to avoid reflection losses.
Very high voltages will oscillate there!

What I like less is the balun at the high end, would prefer
a symmetric tuner with a balun at the coax input and balanced
symmetric output, like the Zellweger tuner does.
The MFJ-974HB is also a fine thing.
Really symmetrical at the tuning circuits, but manual.

100 Watt are fine, 400 Watt are better. (Maximum in Austria)
Can you help me, please?
OE8UWW



Helmut,

All of these replies are right on the mark. There is nothing wrong with
SGC tuners, even for your use. I personally have not heard of problems
with any tuners currently on the market except for perhaps some limited
range tuners built-in to transceivers.

Save yourself future update problems. Buy a 1500 watt tuner if you are
allowed 1500 watts where you live. Most hams in my part of the
Midwestern US use amplifiers.

BTW, I share the responders concern here about your criticism on SGC
tuners. It was unfounded. I personally own and use a very old Ten Tec
229. It has worked perfectly for decades. Again, read the current QST
article about feeding dipoles. It is eye opening. As a youngster might
say "600 ohm ladder line rules" :-)

In message , Ian
writes
"Helmut Wabnig" [email protected] --- -.dotat wrote in message
.. .
hello,
I am a newcomer in amateur radio shortwave and so far
have built a dipole antenna with ladder line.

Not a G5RV, not a ZEPP, not a DOUBLE ZEPP, not a DOUBLETT,
but a dipole, a non-resonant antenna, if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately the antenna feedpoint is 25 meters away.
Now I am searching for a remote automatic tuner
for balanced feed line, aka hen's ladder, and coax input.

Presently I am using a BG-430 military Generalstab radio tuner.
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...em_se_430.html
It is the lower right foto, the thing in the center with the 4 black
feet. Works only 80 and 40 meters.
In more detail:
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...geraet_ag.html
Look at the schematic, upper part.
The input coax connects to the "balun" transformer,
and two variometer coils connect to the antenna output.

I have not been able to find anything useable on the market.
SGC tuners are ruled out, they are strictly for long wires
and nothing else. They make their money with the UN and other
mobile militaries, amateurs are not existent for them.
Amateurs use dipoles and ladder lines.

Hello Helmut. I was puzzled by your comments about SGC as they are
well-known in the ham radio world.
You wrote "Amateurs use dipoles and ladder lines". Have a look at page 24 of
this PDF http://www.sgcworld.com/Publications/Manuals/230man.pdf
This shows an SGC SG-230 Smartuner being used with a dipole fed by a
balanced line feeder.

While that WILL work - and probably work quite well - it is certainly
'not the way to do it'. There will be a lot of radiation from (and
pick-up on) the feeder. There really should be some sort of balun
between the tuner and the feeder. However, with high impedance twin
feeder, the impedance presented at the bottom of the feeder could be
something that certain types of balun do not like. Some experimentation
will probably be required.

--
Ian

On Sun, 17 May 2015 14:43:19 -0500, FBMBoomer
wrote:

On 5/17/2015 6:53 AM, Helmut Wabnig wrote:
hello,
I am a newcomer in amateur radio shortwave and so far
have built a dipole antenna with ladder line.

Not a G5RV, not a ZEPP, not a DOUBLE ZEPP, not a DOUBLETT,
but a dipole, a non-resonant antenna, if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately the antenna feedpoint is 25 meters away.
Now I am searching for a remote automatic tuner
for balanced feed line, aka hen's ladder, and coax input.

Presently I am using a BG-430 military Generalstab radio tuner.
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...em_se_430.html
It is the lower right foto, the thing in the center with the 4 black
feet. Works only 80 and 40 meters.
In more detail:
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/zellweg...geraet_ag.html
Look at the schematic, upper part.
The input coax connects to the "balun" transformer,
and two variometer coils connect to the antenna output.

I have not been able to find anything useable on the market.
SGC tuners are ruled out, they are strictly for long wires
and nothing else. They make their money with the UN and other
mobile militaries, amateurs are not existent for them.
Amateurs use dipoles and ladder lines.
No, you can't use an SGC on a dipole.
If you do, you are wasting your money.

What rermains are MFJ and LDG coax tuners in combination
with a 1:4 balanced transformer. Thus the 25 m coax line would see
a fine SWR and no losses due to reflections. The coax from the tuner
output to the balun input make very short to avoid reflection losses.
Very high voltages will oscillate there!

What I like less is the balun at the high end, would prefer
a symmetric tuner with a balun at the coax input and balanced
symmetric output, like the Zellweger tuner does.
The MFJ-974HB is also a fine thing.
Really symmetrical at the tuning circuits, but manual.

100 Watt are fine, 400 Watt are better. (Maximum in Austria)
Can you help me, please?
OE8UWW



Helmut,

All of these replies are right on the mark. There is nothing wrong with
SGC tuners, even for your use. I personally have not heard of problems
with any tuners currently on the market except for perhaps some limited
range tuners built-in to transceivers.

Save yourself future update problems. Buy a 1500 watt tuner if you are
allowed 1500 watts where you live. Most hams in my part of the
Midwestern US use amplifiers.

BTW, I share the responders concern here about your criticism on SGC
tuners. It was unfounded. I personally own and use a very old Ten Tec
229. It has worked perfectly for decades. Again, read the current QST
article about feeding dipoles. It is eye opening. As a youngster might
say "600 ohm ladder line rules" :-)

Thanks for the answers, but I have an absolute abhorrence against
grounding the left side of my dipole, as the SGC recommends.
Again: ground from the transceiver, ground is on the outside of the
coax, ground is at the frame of the SGC, and they recommend to connect
the left dipole half to that ground frame.
Alternatively the other side of the dipole:-)

Of course it will work.
A rusty nine inch nail will work.
Anything that conducts electricity will work.
But it is a shame.

Therefore I am searching for an automatic tuner with symmetric output.
Additionally I would prefer to have the balun at the coax input side,
not at the high voltage output balanced side.
Am not sure if that is justified, though.
It just looks better to me,
but the losses may be equal here and there.
Still thinking about that.
Does it matter or not?


w.