On 7/10/2015 7:38 PM, John S wrote:

On 7/10/2015 9:30 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
I may not have defined the generator adequately. I meant that the
generator will supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.


That is your fallacy. A generator (not even a theoretical ideal one)
will not supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.

In what way is it a fallacy? There are theoretically only two possible
conditions where it is impossible. Do you know what those two conditions
are?

John S wrote:

On 7/10/2015 7:38 PM, John S wrote:

On 7/10/2015 9:30 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
I may not have defined the generator adequately. I meant that the
generator will supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.


That is your fallacy. A generator (not even a theoretical ideal one)
will not supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.

In what way is it a fallacy? There are theoretically only two possible
conditions where it is impossible. Do you know what those two conditions
are?

I can only think of one which is actually possible, as opposed to a
theoretical limit.

--
Roger Hayter

On 7/19/2015 9:16 AM, John S wrote:
On 7/10/2015 7:38 PM, John S wrote:

On 7/10/2015 9:30 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
I may not have defined the generator adequately. I meant that the
generator will supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.


That is your fallacy. A generator (not even a theoretical ideal one)
will not supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.

In what way is it a fallacy? There are theoretically only two possible
conditions where it is impossible. Do you know what those two conditions
are?

I should not be asking that question. I should be supplying some
information. I apologize.

The two conditions are a zero ohm load and an open circuit (infinite
load). It is not theoretically possible to put power into either. Those
two conditions require a source such that the results are,
mathematically, undefined.

But ALL other conditions are theoretically possible.

John S wrote:

On 7/19/2015 9:16 AM, John S wrote:
On 7/10/2015 7:38 PM, John S wrote:

On 7/10/2015 9:30 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
I may not have defined the generator adequately. I meant that the
generator will supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.


That is your fallacy. A generator (not even a theoretical ideal one)
will not supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.

In what way is it a fallacy? There are theoretically only two possible
conditions where it is impossible. Do you know what those two conditions
are?

I should not be asking that question. I should be supplying some
information. I apologize.

The two conditions are a zero ohm load and an open circuit (infinite
load). It is not theoretically possible to put power into either. Those
two conditions require a source such that the results are,
mathematically, undefined.

But ALL other conditions are theoretically possible.

I don't think a true open circuit is actually possible, though one can
make a pretty good approximation.


--
Roger Hayter

On 7/20/2015 4:06 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
John S wrote:

On 7/19/2015 9:16 AM, John S wrote:
On 7/10/2015 7:38 PM, John S wrote:

On 7/10/2015 9:30 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
I may not have defined the generator adequately. I meant that the
generator will supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.


That is your fallacy. A generator (not even a theoretical ideal one)
will not supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.

In what way is it a fallacy? There are theoretically only two possible
conditions where it is impossible. Do you know what those two conditions
are?

I should not be asking that question. I should be supplying some
information. I apologize.

The two conditions are a zero ohm load and an open circuit (infinite
load). It is not theoretically possible to put power into either. Those
two conditions require a source such that the results are,
mathematically, undefined.

But ALL other conditions are theoretically possible.

I don't think a true open circuit is actually possible, though one can
make a pretty good approximation.



Correct. And neither is a true short circuit. But, I was sticking to
theoretical conditions rather than getting into how much of a short or
open circuit really is.

John S wrote:

On 7/20/2015 4:06 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
John S wrote:

On 7/19/2015 9:16 AM, John S wrote:
On 7/10/2015 7:38 PM, John S wrote:

On 7/10/2015 9:30 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
I may not have defined the generator adequately. I meant that the
generator will supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.


That is your fallacy. A generator (not even a theoretical ideal one)
will not supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.

In what way is it a fallacy? There are theoretically only two possible
conditions where it is impossible. Do you know what those two conditions
are?

I should not be asking that question. I should be supplying some
information. I apologize.

The two conditions are a zero ohm load and an open circuit (infinite
load). It is not theoretically possible to put power into either. Those
two conditions require a source such that the results are,
mathematically, undefined.

But ALL other conditions are theoretically possible.

I don't think a true open circuit is actually possible, though one can
make a pretty good approximation.



Correct. And neither is a true short circuit. But, I was sticking to
theoretical conditions rather than getting into how much of a short or
open circuit really is.

Would a superconductor not be a true short circuit? Anyway, I thought
you were specifically talking about what was "possible" rather than
theoretical limits. Your all-purpose 1 W amplifier could have an output
voltage or current than approached infinity as the output load
approached open circuit and short circuit, if you are still talking
theoretically.



--
Roger Hayter

On 7/20/2015 9:46 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
John S wrote:

On 7/20/2015 4:06 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
John S wrote:

On 7/19/2015 9:16 AM, John S wrote:
On 7/10/2015 7:38 PM, John S wrote:

On 7/10/2015 9:30 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
I may not have defined the generator adequately. I meant that the
generator will supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.


That is your fallacy. A generator (not even a theoretical ideal one)
will not supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.

In what way is it a fallacy? There are theoretically only two possible
conditions where it is impossible. Do you know what those two conditions
are?

I should not be asking that question. I should be supplying some
information. I apologize.

The two conditions are a zero ohm load and an open circuit (infinite
load). It is not theoretically possible to put power into either. Those
two conditions require a source such that the results are,
mathematically, undefined.

But ALL other conditions are theoretically possible.

I don't think a true open circuit is actually possible, though one can
make a pretty good approximation.



Correct. And neither is a true short circuit. But, I was sticking to
theoretical conditions rather than getting into how much of a short or
open circuit really is.

Would a superconductor not be a true short circuit? Anyway, I thought
you were specifically talking about what was "possible" rather than
theoretical limits. Your all-purpose 1 W amplifier could have an output
voltage or current than approached infinity as the output load
approached open circuit and short circuit, if you are still talking
theoretically.

Even if a conductor has no dissipative resistance, won't all conductors
have radiation resistance? It is normally so small that it can be
ignored, but in the case of a true zero ohm conductor it would be more
significant.

--

Rick

rickman wrote:

On 7/20/2015 9:46 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
John S wrote:

On 7/20/2015 4:06 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
John S wrote:

On 7/19/2015 9:16 AM, John S wrote:
On 7/10/2015 7:38 PM, John S wrote:

On 7/10/2015 9:30 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
I may not have defined the generator adequately. I meant that the
generator will supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.


That is your fallacy. A generator (not even a theoretical ideal one)
will not supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.

In what way is it a fallacy? There are theoretically only two possible
conditions where it is impossible. Do you know what those two conditions
are?

I should not be asking that question. I should be supplying some
information. I apologize.

The two conditions are a zero ohm load and an open circuit (infinite
load). It is not theoretically possible to put power into either. Those
two conditions require a source such that the results are,
mathematically, undefined.

But ALL other conditions are theoretically possible.

I don't think a true open circuit is actually possible, though one can
make a pretty good approximation.



Correct. And neither is a true short circuit. But, I was sticking to
theoretical conditions rather than getting into how much of a short or
open circuit really is.

Would a superconductor not be a true short circuit? Anyway, I thought
you were specifically talking about what was "possible" rather than
theoretical limits. Your all-purpose 1 W amplifier could have an output
voltage or current than approached infinity as the output load
approached open circuit and short circuit, if you are still talking
theoretically.

Even if a conductor has no dissipative resistance, won't all conductors
have radiation resistance? It is normally so small that it can be
ignored, but in the case of a true zero ohm conductor it would be more
significant.

Good point. And does a superconducting electromagnet show a real
resistance when the field does mechanical work? Naive thermodynamics
would seem to suggest it should, but the maths is well beyond me.


--
Roger Hayter

On 7/20/2015 8:46 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
John S wrote:

On 7/20/2015 4:06 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
John S wrote:

On 7/19/2015 9:16 AM, John S wrote:
On 7/10/2015 7:38 PM, John S wrote:

On 7/10/2015 9:30 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
I may not have defined the generator adequately. I meant that the
generator will supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.


That is your fallacy. A generator (not even a theoretical ideal one)
will not supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.

In what way is it a fallacy? There are theoretically only two possible
conditions where it is impossible. Do you know what those two conditions
are?

I should not be asking that question. I should be supplying some
information. I apologize.

The two conditions are a zero ohm load and an open circuit (infinite
load). It is not theoretically possible to put power into either. Those
two conditions require a source such that the results are,
mathematically, undefined.

But ALL other conditions are theoretically possible.

I don't think a true open circuit is actually possible, though one can
make a pretty good approximation.



Correct. And neither is a true short circuit. But, I was sticking to
theoretical conditions rather than getting into how much of a short or
open circuit really is.

Would a superconductor not be a true short circuit? Anyway, I thought
you were specifically talking about what was "possible" rather than
theoretical limits. Your all-purpose 1 W amplifier could have an output
voltage or current than approached infinity as the output load
approached open circuit and short circuit, if you are still talking
theoretically.

I thought I made it clear that we are talking theoretically. If we are,
super conduction is moot. Yes, a source can approach, but not achieve,
infinite voltage or current. Also, as I said earlier, it is not infinite
but is undefined or unbounded mathematically. We call it infinite so we
can wrap our heads around the concept.

We can discuss "possible" rather than theoretical if you prefer. We
would then need to to define how good is a short circuit or an open
circuit and put numbers to them. How do we define the source so that we
agree on its properties? I am eager to discuss these things, so please
present a possible scenario for us to discuss.

On 7/20/2015 9:28 AM, rickman wrote:
On 7/20/2015 9:46 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
John S wrote:

On 7/20/2015 4:06 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
John S wrote:

On 7/19/2015 9:16 AM, John S wrote:
On 7/10/2015 7:38 PM, John S wrote:

On 7/10/2015 9:30 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
I may not have defined the generator adequately. I meant that the
generator will supply one watt regardless of the impedance it
sees.


That is your fallacy. A generator (not even a theoretical ideal
one)
will not supply one watt regardless of the impedance it sees.

In what way is it a fallacy? There are theoretically only two
possible
conditions where it is impossible. Do you know what those two
conditions
are?

I should not be asking that question. I should be supplying some
information. I apologize.

The two conditions are a zero ohm load and an open circuit (infinite
load). It is not theoretically possible to put power into either.
Those
two conditions require a source such that the results are,
mathematically, undefined.

But ALL other conditions are theoretically possible.

I don't think a true open circuit is actually possible, though one can
make a pretty good approximation.



Correct. And neither is a true short circuit. But, I was sticking to
theoretical conditions rather than getting into how much of a short or
open circuit really is.

Would a superconductor not be a true short circuit? Anyway, I thought
you were specifically talking about what was "possible" rather than
theoretical limits. Your all-purpose 1 W amplifier could have an output
voltage or current than approached infinity as the output load
approached open circuit and short circuit, if you are still talking
theoretically.

Even if a conductor has no dissipative resistance, won't all conductors
have radiation resistance? It is normally so small that it can be
ignored, but in the case of a true zero ohm conductor it would be more
significant.

Yes, except at zero frequency.