Tom wrote:
Yes, but Enphase Microinverters shut off, SolarEdge inverters shut off, for
just that reason. This makes them certifiable. They are probably the better
ones for my application.

You mentioned it was possible with more equipment. Can you elaborate? I want
to primarily be on the program, but when my grid goes down for any serious
length of time what more equipment would you recommend me considering that
both meets the code, made in Ontario and is tried and true, suitable for the
program. I don't want knock offs or copies, or offshore stuff. Must be
certified and meet the code, etc etc, and not so complicated it needs NASA
Satelite Engineers to approve my drawings.


Thanks

I have nothing to do with solar systems and what I know is based on
the research I did to decide whether or not such a system made any
sort of sense in my situation.

I did not find any system that would maintain power in a grid outage
that did not include some sort of backup power, i.e. either a battery
storage system or an autostart generator.

All the systems I found were integrated systems in that I did not find
anything you could add to an existing simple PV system and convert it
to one that would maintain power in a grid outage.

All I can suggest is an extensive web search to see if there is anything
on the market that meets your needs.


--
Jim Pennino

In article ,
wrote:

I have nothing to do with solar systems and what I know is based on
the research I did to decide whether or not such a system made any
sort of sense in my situation.

I did not find any system that would maintain power in a grid outage
that did not include some sort of backup power, i.e. either a battery
storage system or an autostart generator.

I think that's difficult to do, unless you have already converted to a
pure-DC system and have devices which can tolerate brownouts.

Solar-panel systems have a somewhat funky power-delivery curve. If
you try to draw more power than they can deliver, their output voltage
drops like a rock. For some sorts of loads (incandescent) this may be
tolerable. For surge loads such as motors, it's bad... the motors can
stall, or bog down, and may burn out. Some classes of load (e.g. many
switching power supplies) will start drawing *more* current as the
voltage drops, in order to continue delivering the required amount of
power to their load... and the solar panel's output voltage drops
further, current load goes up, voltage drops more... THUNK.

So, driving inverters or other variable loads directly from a
solar-panel array, without at least *some* stored energy to handle
spikes in load or drops in supply (cloud-over-the-sun) is a tricky
problem to solve, and I believe it's very likely to result in a system
which simply isn't reliable. If you're going to spend a hefty chunk
of money for one as a back-stop against grid outages, that probably
isn't a satisfying result.

On 8/20/2015 5:40 PM, Tom wrote:
Yes, but Enphase Microinverters shut off, SolarEdge inverters shut off,
for just that reason. This makes them certifiable. They are probably the
better ones for my application.

You mentioned it was possible with more equipment. Can you elaborate? I
want to primarily be on the program, but when my grid goes down for any
serious length of time what more equipment would you recommend me
considering that both meets the code, made in Ontario and is tried and
true, suitable for the program. I don't want knock offs or copies, or
offshore stuff. Must be certified and meet the code, etc etc, and not so
complicated it needs NASA Satelite Engineers to approve my drawings.


Thanks

Tom,

Yes, there are systems which can operate independently from the grid.
Typically they operate like a zero time switchover UPS - your house
actually runs off batteries and/or rectified and filtered AC, through an
inverter which generates the 60hz. But if you're talking 200A service
at 230V, you're talking over 45KW maximum drain. An inverter which
generates sine waves with that much power (not to mention the batteries
required to support it) is quite expensive (and generating clean sine
waves isn't all that efficient). Sure, you don't need it all of the
time - but you need to be able to supply the peak draw.

As Jim hinted - you have to isolate the output of your inverter from the
power lines, even though they both feed the same equipment. Otherwise,
when you lose power, your inverter is going to try to supply power to
the whole neighborhood. Not only would that burn out your inverter, but
it could electrocute someone.

That's a big reason most backup systems use diesel generators. They are
much more cost effective and will run as long as they have fuel
available. Plus they generate pretty clean sine waves. Switchover is
on the order of a few seconds; if that's too long one or more UPS's for
critical systems can keep power up for that short of a time.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:14:46 -0400, "Tom" wrote:

Can you comment on the fact that these Enphase converters need 240ac volts
(grid connection) to run? This means that if ever the power supplier
locally ever shuts down for more than a long period of time that these
Enphase units become useless. Around my neck of the woods we are getting
more and more power outages lasting longer and longer. These inverters
require being connected to the grid to function.

Yep, been there. Almost everyone that has a grid tied solar system
wants to know what it will take to make it run when the power is down.
Home Power Magazine had a nice article on the topic in the current
issue (168):
http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/adding-battery-backup-your-pv-system-ac-coupling
The magic buzzword for Googling is "AC-Coupled Battery Backup PV
System" (or something like that). Note that there are both DC and AC
coupled approaches to the problem, each with their own advantages and
problems.

Note that Elon Musk wants to do much the same thing but not to backup
your solar PV system. He wants to store excess power in a battery
bank, and return it during times of peak loads to save money using
time of use billing.
http://www.wired.com/2015/05/teslas-batteries-will-power-home/

I understand the safety requirement and it needing to do this to be
certified but it really limits the home owner (or cottage owner in my case).

Yep. All of the stuff in the article is probably approved, but I
would be careful and check, especially with made in China hardware
purchased on eBay.

Have you ever worked on a system that was more practical?

More practical than what? I've done nothing with AC coupled backup
systems for grid tied PV systems, mostly because none of my customers
will tolerate the cost. It's often cheaper to just buy a big
generator and let it sit around until it's needed. Diesel seems to be
the favorite.

That qualified for
the grid program but was useful when detached from the grid? Seems to me if
ever the power company decides to cancel the program you may be stuck with
40 inverters that are useless and are 200 dollars each.

You're mixing up a bunch of programs. First, your power company is
unlikely to pull the plug except for non-payment. It might decide to
cancel subsidies or refuse to offer net metering payments, as happens
in many states. In California, if the power is lost for extended
periods, there is some fixed amount that the power companies are
required to refund the customer on their next bill. That too might be
terminated. At this time, power generation and distribution is mostly
a "best effort" exercise, with little in the way of guarantees
covering extended outages.

If you're dependent on a sole source of power, such as utility *OR*
PV, then you'll have the same problem with outages. My best
suggestions is to have more than one source of power. Utility and PV
are the most common. There's also wind and micro-hydro generation.
Batteries don't generate electricity so they're not considered an
alternative power source. Once you have your power source in place,
then you can think about storage options.

Any comments are thankful,

If you wanted to be off the grid, then kindly plan your system for off
grid use. That mostly eliminates grid tied systems and always
requires batteries or other forms of energy storage (maybe flywheel).
Instead of micro-inverters, you're back to the big charger/controller
boxes, and banks of batteries.

Batteries are always a problem. They require constant care. They
tend to die rather quickly. They're expensive. They're big, ugly,
and dangerous. They're far too easy to kill. Before dealing with
batteries, make sure you know what you're getting into.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Thanks gents

Great, thanks for all your thoughts.

I wanted to stay away from the battery bank thing, I have enough trouble
with keeping 4 or 5 deep cycles alive for more than 5 or 6 years. But I may
introduce them to a PV system.
But all my Deep Cycles are different sizes, so sure would like some of those
Tesla by Elon. I believe that person is developing a huge PV manufacturing
facility in Buffalo NY but I talked to SolarCity reps and they will not deal
with Canadian market.

My program is with Ontario Hydro and up north our local providers are shaky
and unreliable. In Ontario Canada the provincial govt is recently (last
decade or more) really screwed things up, they started a Gas Power Plant and
cancelled that after about a billion, they have had other programs that they
started and abruptly ended after loosing a few billion and now they are in a
50 year debt and trying to sell off to private (fire sale) and they are
offering this program to me for a 20 year contract. So I must install 40
panels on my roof and tie it all into the grid and they want 100% of it and
paying a pretty nice penny per KWh. But the initial investment by me is
substantial up front so if they pull out of the deal in one year then I have
a very big expensive inverters that are good for nothing. A lot of people in
Ontario Canada don't think that the local Ontary Hydro will be long for this
world, so we don't want to get stuck on this program and left hanging.

I can see them keeping me (and all home owners or cottage owners) as
providers because we aren't unionized and costing more to produce it than
selling it, I think they are trying to eliminate the nuclear (60% of our
power in Ontario) because it is costing too much debt. So their goal may be
to get all that can to provide it because I maintain the house structure and
panel system and no union or salary or coffee breaks. But they could cancel
that tomorrow leaving me a $30,000 system I can do nothing with.

I like what they are offering, it seems too good to be true.

I will take a chance, role the dice and jump in. For the program. Without
the program it isn't worth it at this time.

Thanks very much for all the food for thought, I will implement a small
charge controller and small battery bank system. I like your Diesel
Generator idea for if ever the power does go out, which it does. But it is
small to worry about. Thanks again for all the ideas.

For my primary reason for this system, I will buy the 40 panels and do you
folks have any reasons why you would select the Solaredge technology with
the new optimizers for efficiencies (about $3000.00) for their product, or
using Enphase microinverters (about $7000.00). Other than costs difference,
which would you folks prefer? Both become useless if the power grid goes
off, but both are looking pretty equal for efficiences and installation is
easy enough.

All the surfing and reading I see is everyone has installed the Solaredge
and it seems to have improved nicely, while the Enphase is the lastest and
not really had many years of use to compare, but they apparently to some are
the better device.

Do you folks have any comments on either of these devices?

Have good day, thanks







"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:14:46 -0400, "Tom" wrote:

Can you comment on the fact that these Enphase converters need 240ac volts
(grid connection) to run? This means that if ever the power supplier
locally ever shuts down for more than a long period of time that these
Enphase units become useless. Around my neck of the woods we are getting
more and more power outages lasting longer and longer. These inverters
require being connected to the grid to function.

Yep, been there. Almost everyone that has a grid tied solar system
wants to know what it will take to make it run when the power is down.
Home Power Magazine had a nice article on the topic in the current
issue (168):
http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/adding-battery-backup-your-pv-system-ac-coupling
The magic buzzword for Googling is "AC-Coupled Battery Backup PV
System" (or something like that). Note that there are both DC and AC
coupled approaches to the problem, each with their own advantages and
problems.

Note that Elon Musk wants to do much the same thing but not to backup
your solar PV system. He wants to store excess power in a battery
bank, and return it during times of peak loads to save money using
time of use billing.
http://www.wired.com/2015/05/teslas-batteries-will-power-home/

I understand the safety requirement and it needing to do this to be
certified but it really limits the home owner (or cottage owner in my
case).

Yep. All of the stuff in the article is probably approved, but I
would be careful and check, especially with made in China hardware
purchased on eBay.

Have you ever worked on a system that was more practical?

More practical than what? I've done nothing with AC coupled backup
systems for grid tied PV systems, mostly because none of my customers
will tolerate the cost. It's often cheaper to just buy a big
generator and let it sit around until it's needed. Diesel seems to be
the favorite.

That qualified for
the grid program but was useful when detached from the grid? Seems to me
if
ever the power company decides to cancel the program you may be stuck with
40 inverters that are useless and are 200 dollars each.

You're mixing up a bunch of programs. First, your power company is
unlikely to pull the plug except for non-payment. It might decide to
cancel subsidies or refuse to offer net metering payments, as happens
in many states. In California, if the power is lost for extended
periods, there is some fixed amount that the power companies are
required to refund the customer on their next bill. That too might be
terminated. At this time, power generation and distribution is mostly
a "best effort" exercise, with little in the way of guarantees
covering extended outages.

If you're dependent on a sole source of power, such as utility *OR*
PV, then you'll have the same problem with outages. My best
suggestions is to have more than one source of power. Utility and PV
are the most common. There's also wind and micro-hydro generation.
Batteries don't generate electricity so they're not considered an
alternative power source. Once you have your power source in place,
then you can think about storage options.

Any comments are thankful,

If you wanted to be off the grid, then kindly plan your system for off
grid use. That mostly eliminates grid tied systems and always
requires batteries or other forms of energy storage (maybe flywheel).
Instead of micro-inverters, you're back to the big charger/controller
boxes, and banks of batteries.

Batteries are always a problem. They require constant care. They
tend to die rather quickly. They're expensive. They're big, ugly,
and dangerous. They're far too easy to kill. Before dealing with
batteries, make sure you know what you're getting into.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 8/21/2015 9:00 AM, Tom wrote:
Thanks gents

Great, thanks for all your thoughts.

I wanted to stay away from the battery bank thing, I have enough trouble
with keeping 4 or 5 deep cycles alive for more than 5 or 6 years. But I
may introduce them to a PV system.
But all my Deep Cycles are different sizes, so sure would like some of
those Tesla by Elon. I believe that person is developing a huge PV
manufacturing facility in Buffalo NY but I talked to SolarCity reps and
they will not deal with Canadian market.

My program is with Ontario Hydro and up north our local providers are
shaky and unreliable. In Ontario Canada the provincial govt is recently
(last decade or more) really screwed things up, they started a Gas Power
Plant and cancelled that after about a billion, they have had other
programs that they started and abruptly ended after loosing a few
billion and now they are in a 50 year debt and trying to sell off to
private (fire sale) and they are offering this program to me for a 20
year contract. So I must install 40 panels on my roof and tie it all
into the grid and they want 100% of it and paying a pretty nice penny
per KWh. But the initial investment by me is substantial up front so if
they pull out of the deal in one year then I have a very big expensive
inverters that are good for nothing. A lot of people in Ontario Canada
don't think that the local Ontary Hydro will be long for this world, so
we don't want to get stuck on this program and left hanging.

I can see them keeping me (and all home owners or cottage owners) as
providers because we aren't unionized and costing more to produce it
than selling it, I think they are trying to eliminate the nuclear (60%
of our power in Ontario) because it is costing too much debt. So their
goal may be to get all that can to provide it because I maintain the
house structure and panel system and no union or salary or coffee
breaks. But they could cancel that tomorrow leaving me a $30,000 system
I can do nothing with.

I like what they are offering, it seems too good to be true.

I will take a chance, role the dice and jump in. For the program.
Without the program it isn't worth it at this time.

Thanks very much for all the food for thought, I will implement a small
charge controller and small battery bank system. I like your Diesel
Generator idea for if ever the power does go out, which it does. But it
is small to worry about. Thanks again for all the ideas.

For my primary reason for this system, I will buy the 40 panels and do
you folks have any reasons why you would select the Solaredge technology
with the new optimizers for efficiencies (about $3000.00) for their
product, or using Enphase microinverters (about $7000.00). Other than
costs difference, which would you folks prefer? Both become useless if
the power grid goes off, but both are looking pretty equal for
efficiences and installation is easy enough.

All the surfing and reading I see is everyone has installed the
Solaredge and it seems to have improved nicely, while the Enphase is the
lastest and not really had many years of use to compare, but they
apparently to some are the better device.

Do you folks have any comments on either of these devices?

Have good day, thanks


You're going to be better off asking questions like this in a solar
power related group. I don't think anyone here has any detailed
experience with what you're asking.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

No, I believe you folks here have a lot of helpful information.

And even the not so helpful information sometimes helps just as much. So I
appreciate it all.

Sure, I can install my first ever solar project and join that group, but the
width of knowledge this group touches on so much more and items the other
groups might not.

I am reading all the links and dissecting all the information you folks
throw and believe me, it is all so very helpful and appreciated.

Keep throwing, I am going forward with this and I am just curioius as to all
your comments about both those inverters that are available. Very expensive
so I want to make the most informed decision as to which to purchase, before
I do.

Thanks folks, have a great day

73s





"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 8/21/2015 9:00 AM, Tom wrote:
Thanks gents

Great, thanks for all your thoughts.

I wanted to stay away from the battery bank thing, I have enough trouble
with keeping 4 or 5 deep cycles alive for more than 5 or 6 years. But I
may introduce them to a PV system.
But all my Deep Cycles are different sizes, so sure would like some of
those Tesla by Elon. I believe that person is developing a huge PV
manufacturing facility in Buffalo NY but I talked to SolarCity reps and
they will not deal with Canadian market.

My program is with Ontario Hydro and up north our local providers are
shaky and unreliable. In Ontario Canada the provincial govt is recently
(last decade or more) really screwed things up, they started a Gas Power
Plant and cancelled that after about a billion, they have had other
programs that they started and abruptly ended after loosing a few
billion and now they are in a 50 year debt and trying to sell off to
private (fire sale) and they are offering this program to me for a 20
year contract. So I must install 40 panels on my roof and tie it all
into the grid and they want 100% of it and paying a pretty nice penny
per KWh. But the initial investment by me is substantial up front so if
they pull out of the deal in one year then I have a very big expensive
inverters that are good for nothing. A lot of people in Ontario Canada
don't think that the local Ontary Hydro will be long for this world, so
we don't want to get stuck on this program and left hanging.

I can see them keeping me (and all home owners or cottage owners) as
providers because we aren't unionized and costing more to produce it
than selling it, I think they are trying to eliminate the nuclear (60%
of our power in Ontario) because it is costing too much debt. So their
goal may be to get all that can to provide it because I maintain the
house structure and panel system and no union or salary or coffee
breaks. But they could cancel that tomorrow leaving me a $30,000 system
I can do nothing with.

I like what they are offering, it seems too good to be true.

I will take a chance, role the dice and jump in. For the program.
Without the program it isn't worth it at this time.

Thanks very much for all the food for thought, I will implement a small
charge controller and small battery bank system. I like your Diesel
Generator idea for if ever the power does go out, which it does. But it
is small to worry about. Thanks again for all the ideas.

For my primary reason for this system, I will buy the 40 panels and do
you folks have any reasons why you would select the Solaredge technology
with the new optimizers for efficiencies (about $3000.00) for their
product, or using Enphase microinverters (about $7000.00). Other than
costs difference, which would you folks prefer? Both become useless if
the power grid goes off, but both are looking pretty equal for
efficiences and installation is easy enough.

All the surfing and reading I see is everyone has installed the
Solaredge and it seems to have improved nicely, while the Enphase is the
lastest and not really had many years of use to compare, but they
apparently to some are the better device.

Do you folks have any comments on either of these devices?

Have good day, thanks


You're going to be better off asking questions like this in a solar
power related group. I don't think anyone here has any detailed
experience with what you're asking.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 10:01:54 AM UTC-4, Tom wrote:
No, I believe you folks here have a lot of helpful information.

And even the not so helpful information sometimes helps just as much. So I
appreciate it all.

Sure, I can install my first ever solar project and join that group, but the
width of knowledge this group touches on so much more and items the other
groups might not.

I am reading all the links and dissecting all the information you folks
throw and believe me, it is all so very helpful and appreciated.

Keep throwing, I am going forward with this and I am just curioius as to all
your comments about both those inverters that are available. Very expensive
so I want to make the most informed decision as to which to purchase, before
I do.

Thanks folks, have a great day

73s





"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 8/21/2015 9:00 AM, Tom wrote:
Thanks gents

Great, thanks for all your thoughts.

I wanted to stay away from the battery bank thing, I have enough trouble
with keeping 4 or 5 deep cycles alive for more than 5 or 6 years. But I
may introduce them to a PV system.
But all my Deep Cycles are different sizes, so sure would like some of
those Tesla by Elon. I believe that person is developing a huge PV
manufacturing facility in Buffalo NY but I talked to SolarCity reps and
they will not deal with Canadian market.

My program is with Ontario Hydro and up north our local providers are
shaky and unreliable. In Ontario Canada the provincial govt is recently
(last decade or more) really screwed things up, they started a Gas Power
Plant and cancelled that after about a billion, they have had other
programs that they started and abruptly ended after loosing a few
billion and now they are in a 50 year debt and trying to sell off to
private (fire sale) and they are offering this program to me for a 20
year contract. So I must install 40 panels on my roof and tie it all
into the grid and they want 100% of it and paying a pretty nice penny
per KWh. But the initial investment by me is substantial up front so if
they pull out of the deal in one year then I have a very big expensive
inverters that are good for nothing. A lot of people in Ontario Canada
don't think that the local Ontary Hydro will be long for this world, so
we don't want to get stuck on this program and left hanging.

I can see them keeping me (and all home owners or cottage owners) as
providers because we aren't unionized and costing more to produce it
than selling it, I think they are trying to eliminate the nuclear (60%
of our power in Ontario) because it is costing too much debt. So their
goal may be to get all that can to provide it because I maintain the
house structure and panel system and no union or salary or coffee
breaks. But they could cancel that tomorrow leaving me a $30,000 system
I can do nothing with.

I like what they are offering, it seems too good to be true.

I will take a chance, role the dice and jump in. For the program.
Without the program it isn't worth it at this time.

Thanks very much for all the food for thought, I will implement a small
charge controller and small battery bank system. I like your Diesel
Generator idea for if ever the power does go out, which it does. But it
is small to worry about. Thanks again for all the ideas.

For my primary reason for this system, I will buy the 40 panels and do
you folks have any reasons why you would select the Solaredge technology
with the new optimizers for efficiencies (about $3000.00) for their
product, or using Enphase microinverters (about $7000.00). Other than
costs difference, which would you folks prefer? Both become useless if
the power grid goes off, but both are looking pretty equal for
efficiences and installation is easy enough.

All the surfing and reading I see is everyone has installed the
Solaredge and it seems to have improved nicely, while the Enphase is the
lastest and not really had many years of use to compare, but they
apparently to some are the better device.

Do you folks have any comments on either of these devices?

Have good day, thanks


You're going to be better off asking questions like this in a solar
power related group. I don't think anyone here has any detailed
experience with what you're asking.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Tom

During my time as an electrician doing contract work for Westinghouse I installed photo-voltaic arrays from Alaska to Argentina and except for one design fault that was totally beyond my control all of my installations were successful in that they all worked as designed and did what they were supposed to do. Most of these installs were stand alone power systems for remote communications sites. I have done very few grid tie systems and those were not residential scale installs but rather institutional systems for a college and a factory. That said the principals of operation on these large grid tie systems are the same as on residential sized systems.

What you may want to consider is the addition of a load diverter to your system. A load diverter reacts to the fall off of current flow to the primary load and connects the photo voltaic array to a different load so as to continue to make use of the current that is available from the array. In an off grid system the alternate load might be resistive water heating.

With a grid tie system I cannot imagine any reason that the load diverter could not have a battery charger as the primary load and the grid tie inverter as it's secondary load. With that arrangement once the batteries are charged the photo voltaic array is connected to the grid tie inverter. That would require overly complicated wiring with the micro inverters but it would work fine with the more common single unit inverters.

A separate inverter supplied from the batteries supplies back up power. If you buy the more sophisticated type of back up inverter it can start a standby generator if the load becomes more than the inverter can carry. That is how many off grid systems are arranged so that when the load is lighter the back up inverter supplies the needed current. When the ampacity of the back up inverter is insufficient the engine alternator set (generator) picks up the load and shuts down automatically when the load drops below the back up inverters capacity. One tremendous advantage is that once the occupants retire to sleep the load drops and the silent inverter picks up the remaining load until people get up and begin using more power. You do have to size the battery array and the back up inverter to carry all of the overnight loads for eight hours or so. The use of larger pressure tanks or a small elevated water tank could take care of overnight toilet flushing and hand washing.

What you want can work but the cost will approach building two systems. The thing that you save on is the photo voltaic array.

--
Tom Horne

Hi
Thanks for the ideas.

I have seen a lot of utubes of folks heating water with their panels, or
charging battery banks or more secondary ideas. The primary idea is to go on
the grid, that makes the most practical sense because they pay for the power
a rate of 5 times what the power is purchased by me from the same grid. So
after factoring in all the losses from heating water and required voltages
to meet certain wattages it just cheaper to plug into the wall. Or use the
wood stove. So a lot of secondary ideas do not seem practical. I will hold
off on the secondary or auxillary until later because I can add that easily.
I will only focus on the primary now and that is the program that supplies
100% of power produced to the grid. I can only provide 10 kw max that they
will pay for. Anything over and they don't pay for that. But name plate
ratings must equal 10kw or less but you will never reach that efficiency.

My choice now is between the Enphase microinverters or the Solaredge single
inverter with the optimizers. Are there any advantages to either one over
the other that you folks are aware of? They seem to be both as efficient,
the SolarEdge system is 20% cheaper, they both do not operate without
attached to the grid.

While I am reading that these panels efficiencies levels will only produce
really 80% of their plate ratings could I add two more panels down the road
to the array? With Microinverters I would have to purchase two more at a few
hundred dollars and more harnesses, but with SolarEdge I believe I can add
more panels easily and get as close to the 10KW to earn maximum as possible.

I am wondering what the ease of installation, maintenance, repair, adjust,
addition or subtration of panels to the system. Which system is more
prefered? Enphase or Solaredge? Watching the Solaredge with optimizers now
seem to look more simpler to install, but Microinverters seem to be the new
thing. I am wondering how you folks think about one or the other, why or
why not.

I just want to focus on the primary now and earn as much as possible from
the grid and 40 panels that qualify me for the program. My thinking now is
to buy an additional 2 panels, keep them charging (seperate small charge
controller) small battery bank and have them jump over to help the grid
(become 42 panels) when batteries are full. I can figure that switch or
diverter safely and easily enough but which inverter would work best for
that type of thinking? I would think the SolarEdge because the
MicroInverters on the two seperate would not work to charge the batteries.
So if power does go out I have the two panels to keep batteries charging.

Any comments on this? Which inverters do you folks like best? SolarEdge or
Enphase? Both have almost a 25 year warrenty and I believe both might be
around for 25 years. Seems to be the new thing these solar panels. I don't
think these big firms will be going anywere soon.

Thanks again for all advice,,

73s










"Tom W3TDH" wrote in message
...
On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 10:01:54 AM UTC-4, Tom wrote:
No, I believe you folks here have a lot of helpful information.

And even the not so helpful information sometimes helps just as much. So I
appreciate it all.

Sure, I can install my first ever solar project and join that group, but
the
width of knowledge this group touches on so much more and items the other
groups might not.

I am reading all the links and dissecting all the information you folks
throw and believe me, it is all so very helpful and appreciated.

Keep throwing, I am going forward with this and I am just curioius as to
all
your comments about both those inverters that are available. Very
expensive
so I want to make the most informed decision as to which to purchase,
before
I do.

Thanks folks, have a great day

73s





"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 8/21/2015 9:00 AM, Tom wrote:
Thanks gents

Great, thanks for all your thoughts.

I wanted to stay away from the battery bank thing, I have enough
trouble
with keeping 4 or 5 deep cycles alive for more than 5 or 6 years. But I
may introduce them to a PV system.
But all my Deep Cycles are different sizes, so sure would like some of
those Tesla by Elon. I believe that person is developing a huge PV
manufacturing facility in Buffalo NY but I talked to SolarCity reps and
they will not deal with Canadian market.

My program is with Ontario Hydro and up north our local providers are
shaky and unreliable. In Ontario Canada the provincial govt is recently
(last decade or more) really screwed things up, they started a Gas
Power
Plant and cancelled that after about a billion, they have had other
programs that they started and abruptly ended after loosing a few
billion and now they are in a 50 year debt and trying to sell off to
private (fire sale) and they are offering this program to me for a 20
year contract. So I must install 40 panels on my roof and tie it all
into the grid and they want 100% of it and paying a pretty nice penny
per KWh. But the initial investment by me is substantial up front so if
they pull out of the deal in one year then I have a very big expensive
inverters that are good for nothing. A lot of people in Ontario Canada
don't think that the local Ontary Hydro will be long for this world, so
we don't want to get stuck on this program and left hanging.

I can see them keeping me (and all home owners or cottage owners) as
providers because we aren't unionized and costing more to produce it
than selling it, I think they are trying to eliminate the nuclear (60%
of our power in Ontario) because it is costing too much debt. So their
goal may be to get all that can to provide it because I maintain the
house structure and panel system and no union or salary or coffee
breaks. But they could cancel that tomorrow leaving me a $30,000 system
I can do nothing with.

I like what they are offering, it seems too good to be true.

I will take a chance, role the dice and jump in. For the program.
Without the program it isn't worth it at this time.

Thanks very much for all the food for thought, I will implement a small
charge controller and small battery bank system. I like your Diesel
Generator idea for if ever the power does go out, which it does. But it
is small to worry about. Thanks again for all the ideas.

For my primary reason for this system, I will buy the 40 panels and do
you folks have any reasons why you would select the Solaredge
technology
with the new optimizers for efficiencies (about $3000.00) for their
product, or using Enphase microinverters (about $7000.00). Other than
costs difference, which would you folks prefer? Both become useless if
the power grid goes off, but both are looking pretty equal for
efficiences and installation is easy enough.

All the surfing and reading I see is everyone has installed the
Solaredge and it seems to have improved nicely, while the Enphase is
the
lastest and not really had many years of use to compare, but they
apparently to some are the better device.

Do you folks have any comments on either of these devices?

Have good day, thanks


You're going to be better off asking questions like this in a solar
power related group. I don't think anyone here has any detailed
experience with what you're asking.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Tom

During my time as an electrician doing contract work for Westinghouse I
installed photo-voltaic arrays from Alaska to Argentina and except for one
design fault that was totally beyond my control all of my installations were
successful in that they all worked as designed and did what they were
supposed to do. Most of these installs were stand alone power systems for
remote communications sites. I have done very few grid tie systems and
those were not residential scale installs but rather institutional systems
for a college and a factory. That said the principals of operation on these
large grid tie systems are the same as on residential sized systems.

What you may want to consider is the addition of a load diverter to your
system. A load diverter reacts to the fall off of current flow to the
primary load and connects the photo voltaic array to a different load so as
to continue to make use of the current that is available from the array. In
an off grid system the alternate load might be resistive water heating.

With a grid tie system I cannot imagine any reason that the load diverter
could not have a battery charger as the primary load and the grid tie
inverter as it's secondary load. With that arrangement once the batteries
are charged the photo voltaic array is connected to the grid tie inverter.
That would require overly complicated wiring with the micro inverters but it
would work fine with the more common single unit inverters.

A separate inverter supplied from the batteries supplies back up power. If
you buy the more sophisticated type of back up inverter it can start a
standby generator if the load becomes more than the inverter can carry.
That is how many off grid systems are arranged so that when the load is
lighter the back up inverter supplies the needed current. When the ampacity
of the back up inverter is insufficient the engine alternator set
(generator) picks up the load and shuts down automatically when the load
drops below the back up inverters capacity. One tremendous advantage is
that once the occupants retire to sleep the load drops and the silent
inverter picks up the remaining load until people get up and begin using
more power. You do have to size the battery array and the back up inverter
to carry all of the overnight loads for eight hours or so. The use of
larger pressure tanks or a small elevated water tank could take care of
overnight toilet flushing and hand washing.

What you want can work but the cost will approach building two systems. The
thing that you save on is the photo voltaic array.

--
Tom Horne

I would go with the single unit inverters because as you have already observed the wiring for those is simpler. Then if you ever wanted to make a secondary use of the photo voltaic array's output it would be a lot simpler to wire in the needed additional equipment. With the micro inverters that would be impractical because you would need to tap into the panels output between the panel and each micro inverter rather than the single set of input conductors just ahead of the single unit inverter. But if you know that you are super unlikely to ever want to use the solar array for anything but grid tie power then the only thing that matters is the relative efficiency of the two choices when you balance that against any cost difference.

--
Tom Horne


On Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 6:50:00 AM UTC-4, Tom wrote:
Hi
Thanks for the ideas.

SNIP

My choice now is between the Enphase microinverters or the Solaredge single
inverter with the optimizers. Are there any advantages to either one over
the other that you folks are aware of? They seem to be both as efficient,
the SolarEdge system is 20% cheaper, they both do not operate without
attached to the grid.

While I am reading that these panels efficiencies levels will only produce
really 80% of their plate ratings could I add two more panels down the road
to the array? With Microinverters I would have to purchase two more at a few
hundred dollars and more harnesses, but with SolarEdge I believe I can add
more panels easily and get as close to the 10KW to earn maximum as possible.

I am wondering what the ease of installation, maintenance, repair, adjust,
addition or subtration of panels to the system. Which system is more
prefered? Enphase or Solaredge? Watching the Solaredge with optimizers now
seem to look more simpler to install, but Microinverters seem to be the new
thing. I am wondering how you folks think about one or the other, why or
why not.

I just want to focus on the primary now and earn as much as possible from
the grid and 40 panels that qualify me for the program. My thinking now is
to buy an additional 2 panels, keep them charging (seperate small charge
controller) small battery bank and have them jump over to help the grid
(become 42 panels) when batteries are full. I can figure that switch or
diverter safely and easily enough but which inverter would work best for
that type of thinking? I would think the SolarEdge because the
MicroInverters on the two seperate would not work to charge the batteries..
So if power does go out I have the two panels to keep batteries charging.

Any comments on this? Which inverters do you folks like best? SolarEdge or
Enphase? Both have almost a 25 year warrenty and I believe both might be
around for 25 years. Seems to be the new thing these solar panels. I don't
think these big firms will be going anywere soon.

Thanks again for all advice,,

73s