W7EL wrote:

I have a great deal of respect for Tom, W8JI. In fact, there are few
people I respect as much. I regard him as being exceptionally honest,
very analytical, and always seeking to find the truth and increase his
knowledge. Whenever his view of how things work have been shown to be
wrong, I've found him to readily accept the corrected view, and be
grateful of the opportunity to learn something new. I've also learned
from him on more than one occasion.

That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion. I am sure Tom has also respect
for you (as I do) and he would think twice of pontificating at you than at
someone who is not so vocal or "famous" due to their status or postings on
Internet.
My experience is, as I mentioned it before ( I don't take crap for anybody)
that when I brought some correction to his fallacy or presented idea that did
not exactly jive with his "knowledge", he would in first posting come on the
high horse and pontificate and ridicule the person, rather than engage in the
discussion of pro or con and try to sort things out. That's what ****es me off,
when someone who is wrong resorts to personal attacks (like democrats) rather
than engaging in substantive discussion.
He thrives on reflectors where he is protected by the administrators that
worship him and will not allow discussions when he is on the losing side. He is
not on Amp reflector, mainly because R. Measures debunked some of his postings
proclaiming fallacies. Same was on TowerTalk with K7GCO, who called him "great
technical imposter". Been there, was done to me.
Again his modus operandi is, when he is wrong, he attacks person rather than
engages in discussion and admitting wrong. Then goes quiet for few months and
later corrected, emerges as a "guru" on the subject, like it is his own idea.
Never admitting or giving credit where is due.
I had about 6 situations like that with him, records are at the web sites,
anyone can look it up. I don't give a hoot about "reputation" among the hams, I
have a life outside of ham "world". It just burns me when I try with good
intentions to bring correction to some crap that is floating around, and for it
I get personally attacked and ridiculed.
I don't give a hoot who people want to worship, I have my God. I try to point
out some errors or problems, be it wrong information or crapy equipment.
If you want to find out who is gutless, dishonest and nyekulturny, go back to
some archives, I can supply you subjects and see for yourself.
I learned thing or two from Tom too, but I also see lot of textbook stuff on
his pages and even there are some misleading information. But I will not take
crap for saying that 2 + 2 = 4 is wrong.


I find it contemptable and cowardly to attack him -- or anyone -- in a
forum where he's not a participant and isn't present to correct
misquotes, quotes taken out of context, and otherwise respond and defend
himself.


The last thing is sentence about wire "losing" conductivity by laying on the
ground. That's what I brought up. I know what was the situation with dual wire
Beverages, but that sentence was wrong way to describe what is happening in the
system. If he is so smart, he should be more careful when describing technical
matters. Words mean things.

BTW Tom used EZnec to "prove" that current across the loading coil in the
loaded antenna is the same at both ends. When you replace that coil with same
inductance value loading stub, you find that current is (significantly)
different at the ends of the stub.
Have you corrected him how to use EZnec properly to model lumped inductance and
get results that jive with reality? Cecil showed and explained the stuff. In
his presentation at Dayton, Tom still propagated that nonsense.

Anyway, back to DR1, getting tired of arguing with "experts".

73 Yuri, K3BU

Yuri, K3BU wrote:
"If anybody cares to discuss the subject, or explain how the conductor
laid on the ground can lose its conductivity, bring it on."

"Lose its conductivity" is likely a mischaracterization.

Conductivity of a wire at a particular temperature and frequency is a
function of the form, size, and material the wire is made of.

Proximity of the earth should not affect conductivity directly.

Loss from an R-F carrying conductor can come from energy coupled into
the surroundings. Obvious source is the R-F in the conductor. Closer the
conductor comes to the earth, the higher its capacitive coupling, and
the more current flows in the lossy earth, especially in the case of an
unbalanced conductor.

The fact that a conductor laid on the ground can lose R-F does not mean
it lost conductivity. It means the conductor has induced loss in the
ground upon which it is laid.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Tom Donaly wrote:
Current waves can travel in two directions at the same time. Charge
can't.

Quoting Kraus: "A coil can also act as a 180 degree phase
shifter ..." Exactly how does a coil act as a 180 degree
phase shifter if charge cannot travel in two directions?
Seems that you also don't comprehend the nature of a
distributed network such as a bugcatcher loading coil.

For a guy who doesn't seem to be able to make the distinction,
you don't have any business criticizing Tom Rauch's understanding of
the situation.

So you believe that charge density is constant throughout
an RF distributed network?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
BTW Tom used EZnec to "prove" that current across the loading coil in the
loaded antenna is the same at both ends. When you replace that coil with same
inductance value loading stub, you find that current is (significantly)
different at the ends of the stub.
Have you corrected him how to use EZnec properly to model lumped inductance and
get results that jive with reality? Cecil showed and explained the stuff. In
his presentation at Dayton, Tom still propagated that nonsense.

I'm going to add this to my web page. It's a mobile antenna with an 4'
bottom section, a loading coil, and an 4' whip. The loading coil is
made up of EZNEC segments with an octal shape. It is 4.5 turns in 0.9
foot length and one foot diameter. The feedpoint current is 1 amp.
The current in the first segment at the bottom of the coil is
0.9956 amps. The current in the last segment at the top of the the
coil is 0.5326 amps. The number of electrical degrees that the coil
occupies is about 50 degrees, more than half of the 90 degree antenna.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:23:02 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:
charge cannot travel in two directions?
:-)

"On a different note Yuri, what's new with the transceiver??
Dale W4OP

Richard Clark wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
charge cannot travel in two directions?

:-)

Charge travels in two directions 1/2WL apart
in a transmission line. Why is that funny?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Original W8JI post:
"The only thing that prevents people from shooting themselves
in the foot with the wire below the Beverage is the wire
couples to the lossy media below it so well it becomes very
lossy, and of course that means it doesn't help with
stability or termination."


Yuri, K3BU wrote:
"If anybody cares to discuss the subject, or explain how the conductor
laid on the ground can lose its conductivity, bring it on."

"Lose its conductivity" is likely a mischaracterization.

"Becomes very lossy" or paraphrased "lose its conductivity" to make the point?

Conductivity of a wire at a particular temperature and frequency is a
function of the form, size, and material the wire is made of.


QSL.

Proximity of the earth should not affect conductivity directly.

QSL

Loss from an R-F carrying conductor can come from energy coupled into
the surroundings. Obvious source is the R-F in the conductor. Closer the
conductor comes to the earth, the higher its capacitive coupling, and
the more current flows in the lossy earth, especially in the case of an
unbalanced conductor.

I can see conductor (assuming insulated wire) having its electrical length
affected by the capacitance between wire and earth, but wouldn't current stay
close to same along the length? So, like if we have a coax, which has quite a
capacitive coupling between the center conductor and shield, we would lose
(significant) RF current at the other end?

The fact that a conductor laid on the ground can lose R-F does not mean
it lost conductivity. It means the conductor has induced loss in the
ground upon which it is laid.

(or improved conductivity?)
Isn't it really case of two (resistive) conductors in parallel? Wire and dirt,
with less resistance wire taking over? Why do we use radials if the conductors
become lossy? Why does the Beverage laid on the ground work?
I can see conductor as a (resonant) RF circuit becoming "detuned" and affected
by earth proximity, but saying that it "becomes very lossy" is not very
descriptive. With two wire Beverage I can see the interference between two
"antennas" having same physical length, but different electrical lengths
causing deterioration of pattern (which is observed).

Cecil help? :-)


Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI


Yuri, K3BU

Cecil Moore wrote:
I'm going to add this to my web page. It's a mobile antenna with an 4'
bottom section, a loading coil, and an 4' whip. The loading coil is
made up of EZNEC segments with an octal shape. It is 4.5 turns in 0.9
foot length and one foot diameter. The feedpoint current is 1 amp.
The current in the first segment at the bottom of the coil is
0.9956 amps. The current in the last segment at the top of the the
coil is 0.5326 amps. The number of electrical degrees that the coil
occupies is about 50 degrees, more than half of the 90 degree antenna.

Darn, should have been:
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/octcoil.gif



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On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:01:17 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:
Why is that funny?

There is no charge with a physical dimension of 1/2WL :-)