On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:35:06 GMT, "Tom Wagner"
wrote:

Most of this discussion on BPL focuses on the impact of
BPL on HF reception. What would 1500w of continuous RTTY
do to the users of BPL? How would a BPL modem, which is
necessarily wideband cope with gross overload?

It'll turn a "deaf ear" to the RTTY...rather it'll just go deaf if you
are close enough.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

Tom - N1MM
Check out the N1MM Free Contest Logger at:
http://www.n1mm.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/N1MMLogger/

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message . com...
(Brian) wrote in message . com...

Its a complex issue. Thank goodness we have lawyers and engineers to
figure it all out for us.

Heaven forbid that you'd ever take the initiative to think for yourself, Brain.

Steve, K4YZ

Apparently you didn't see Phil's answer.

Pull your head out - "The "pop" heard around the world."

(Brian) wrote in message . com...

What does BPL sound like? Can someone post a wav file somewhere so it can
be identified? Is it worse that the Pennsylvania QSO party?

Did someone take over a frequency you owned?

Mike, that was kinda rude.

Whoa....BRAIN suggesting to someone else what is rude!

Steve, K4YZ

Steve Robeson, K4CAP wrote:
(Brian) wrote in message . com...


What does BPL sound like? Can someone post a wav file somewhere so it can
be identified? Is it worse that the Pennsylvania QSO party?

Did someone take over a frequency you owned?


Mike, that was kinda rude.


Whoa....BRAIN suggesting to someone else what is rude!


Whadid I doo? Heck just last weekend in a contest on 40 and 80 meters,
I went to some open frequencies and asked "is the frequency in use? And
several times a ham wouls reply and say "yes it is". Then nothing would
happen. Silence.

If those hams didn't own those frquencies they wouldn't lord over them
would they? No wonder they don't like us contesters. Those poor guys had
to sit by their radios all day to keep teletresspassers like me off
their frequencies!

- Mike KB3EIA -

W1RFI wrote:

I have not looked at a plasma TV, Chip, but I would make that diagnosis
primarily on on the basis of the sphere of influence. In the BPL test areas,
the interference was heard over the entire area that had the BPL couplers in
place.


Hmmm - I wonder ... presumably the BPL couplers are capacitors coupling
appropriate RF from one leg of the power system to the next. Would they
also couple spuriously-generated RF at similar frequencies? (yeah, I'm
sure the couplers are more involved than simple RF bypass caps - that's
not the question here.)

The PPL rep accused you of mis-interpreting the RF from a neon sign as a
BPL signal. What DOES happen to the hash generated by a neon sign, then?
is it propagated through the power grid much further when BPL couplers
are present? How about other sources of broadband noise, like loose wires,
arcing insulators, etc? Will the entire BPL scheme spread all these other
spurious emissions far and wide?

And, by the way, since aircraft use AM, do they receive hash when they
fly over BPL lines? Are our brethren in aviation potentially useful
allies in this war?

Bob, KI8AB

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 13:36:17 -0500, Robert Lyons
wrote:

W1RFI wrote:

I have not looked at a plasma TV, Chip, but I would make that diagnosis
primarily on on the basis of the sphere of influence. In the BPL test areas,
the interference was heard over the entire area that had the BPL couplers in
place.


Hmmm - I wonder ... presumably the BPL couplers are capacitors coupling
appropriate RF from one leg of the power system to the next. Would they
also couple spuriously-generated RF at similar frequencies? (yeah, I'm
sure the couplers are more involved than simple RF bypass caps - that's
not the question here.)

The PPL rep accused you of mis-interpreting the RF from a neon sign as a
BPL signal. What DOES happen to the hash generated by a neon sign, then?
is it propagated through the power grid much further when BPL couplers
are present? How about other sources of broadband noise, like loose wires,
arcing insulators, etc? Will the entire BPL scheme spread all these other
spurious emissions far and wide?

And, by the way, since aircraft use AM, do they receive hash when they
fly over BPL lines? Are our brethren in aviation potentially useful
allies in this war?

We'd basically have to identify an area close to an airport.
IF it were to interfere it would be more likely to interfere with nav
radios such as the ILS and VORs.

Even small planes are likely to be several thousand feet above any
current test area and as the areas are small any interference would be
brief and quite likely unnoticed.

Now, if they'd put one off the approach end of a runway using an ILS
and screw up the glide slope indication for an airliner, I think the
PBL experiment would be over in a hurry.

I don't think that is going to happen.
Even if those frequencies are "notched out" I think it would affect an
ILS indicator and I emphasize the "I think" part. I also think they
will avoid putting anything near an airport until the system is in
widespread use with the hopes that sheer pressure would force the
continuance of the service. These people "ain't dumb". They are going
to play everything to their advantage including attempts to discredit
any testing that shows them in a bad light, as we've already seen. I
wouldn't call them dishonest, or that they would resort to
"prefabrication, or prevarication". I think everyone can draw their
own conclusions.

I would hope the FAA and FCC would require specific testing be done
both in the laboratory and in the field due to the quite possible
severe consequences were interference to aviation to occur.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)


Bob, KI8AB

Has a radio station lost income because advertisers
are not having their messages heard by some listeners?
Have any radio stations complained of interference
of any sort ?

These people count much more than anybody because
they have money which means influence.
What would really count is to vote out the present
government so that it would cost twice as much as
was originaly thought as influence costs would
have to start all over again.
On the other hand is local broadcasting on the way out
together with ham radio? We appear to know everything that counts
so that with mystery gone so will curiousity. Our monthly magazine
is not eagerly awaited anymore as the first portion is really of
interest to the few and the second portion is devoted to
organisational business.
Seems like a lot of hams have migrated to the internet to discuss
items of interest.
You certainly do not hear technical discussions anymore
I personaly have not been on the air for ages
other than an occasional test, and I suspect that I am not alone.
Maybe it is time to move on and give up the frequencies anyway.
Do enjoy my RADCOM tho because it talks to me, not down to me
as someone who should get an education and rise up to the
publishers level. Frankly our membership and influence is dwindling
fast,
so maybe we would regain it back if we let this scheme go ahead so we
can
say ' we told you so ' rather than howling into the wind.
Since most things are now discussed on the internet rather than ham
radio
perhaps we should think more of what is best to the common interest,
perpetuating ham radio for the few old people until they die or
enlarging internet access for the many and for the future, something
that our hobby does not have.
Art

Please throw your rocks into this basket and not at me !
TIA


i i
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On 7 Nov 2003 17:56:52 -0800, (Art Unwin KB9MZ)
wrote:

Has a radio station lost income because advertisers
are not having their messages heard by some listeners?
Have any radio stations complained of interference
of any sort ?

These people count much more than anybody because
they have money which means influence.

Unless they end up interfering with safety services and aviation.
how'd you like to have the airliner you are riding in suddenly lose
the glide slope on the way down the ILS in a heavy rain with a 200
foot ceiling?

What would really count is to vote out the present
government so that it would cost twice as much as
was originaly thought as influence costs would
have to start all over again.
On the other hand is local broadcasting on the way out

I don't support the local stations if that's what you mean. They and I
have had some disagreements.

together with ham radio? We appear to know everything that counts

I think that was said about Physics, Astronomy, and a number of other
fields way back in the eighteen hundreds too.

so that with mystery gone so will curiousity. Our monthly magazine
is not eagerly awaited anymore as the first portion is really of
interest to the few and the second portion is devoted to

What few. I read the adds and haven't had to pay for it in over 30
years.

organisational business.

Home brewing programmable QRP rigs and projects is becoming much more
popular in our area, although I still prefer QRO. I'm over hauling an
old Henry 2K4 that lost a bout with lightening although it survived
pretty well. Just the SWR circuitry and bias diode were fried.

Seems like a lot of hams have migrated to the internet to discuss
items of interest.
You certainly do not hear technical discussions anymore

Those make up about a quarter of what you hear on our local repeater
(147.00)

I personaly have not been on the air for ages
other than an occasional test, and I suspect that I am not alone.

I'm more active now than in the last 20 years.

snip
perhaps we should think more of what is best to the common interest,

Other than BPL doesn't do what they say. It still requires a broad
band cable to run along with it to feed the power line on the order of
every block or less. So what is the advantage of running BPL if you
already have the required broad band cable?

perpetuating ham radio for the few old people until they die or
enlarging internet access for the many and for the future, something
that our hobby does not have.

Novice classes and upgrading here in the Midland area are going great
with plans for a new class coming up. The choice now, is how much
upgrading to they want to add to the classes..

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

Art

Please throw your rocks into this basket and not at me !
TIA


i i
i i
i i
i______1
x

a!

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 13:36:17 -0500, Robert Lyons
wrote:

W1RFI wrote:

I have not looked at a plasma TV, Chip, but I would make that diagnosis
primarily on on the basis of the sphere of influence. In the BPL test
areas,
the interference was heard over the entire area that had the BPL
couplers in
place.


Hmmm - I wonder ... presumably the BPL couplers are capacitors coupling
appropriate RF from one leg of the power system to the next. Would they
also couple spuriously-generated RF at similar frequencies? (yeah, I'm
sure the couplers are more involved than simple RF bypass caps - that's
not the question here.)

The PPL rep accused you of mis-interpreting the RF from a neon sign as a
BPL signal. What DOES happen to the hash generated by a neon sign, then?
is it propagated through the power grid much further when BPL couplers
are present? How about other sources of broadband noise, like loose
wires,
arcing insulators, etc? Will the entire BPL scheme spread all these other
spurious emissions far and wide?

And, by the way, since aircraft use AM, do they receive hash when they
fly over BPL lines? Are our brethren in aviation potentially useful
allies in this war?

We'd basically have to identify an area close to an airport.
IF it were to interfere it would be more likely to interfere with nav
radios such as the ILS and VORs.

Even small planes are likely to be several thousand feet above any
current test area and as the areas are small any interference would be
brief and quite likely unnoticed.

Now, if they'd put one off the approach end of a runway using an ILS
and screw up the glide slope indication for an airliner, I think the
PBL experiment would be over in a hurry.

I don't think that is going to happen.
Even if those frequencies are "notched out" I think it would affect an
ILS indicator and I emphasize the "I think" part. I also think they
will avoid putting anything near an airport until the system is in
widespread use with the hopes that sheer pressure would force the
continuance of the service. These people "ain't dumb". They are going
to play everything to their advantage including attempts to discredit
any testing that shows them in a bad light, as we've already seen. I
wouldn't call them dishonest, or that they would resort to
"prefabrication, or prevarication". I think everyone can draw their
own conclusions.

I would hope the FAA and FCC would require specific testing be done
both in the laboratory and in the field due to the quite possible
severe consequences were interference to aviation to occur.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)


Bob, KI8AB

Hmmm - I wonder ... presumably the BPL couplers are capacitors coupling
appropriate RF from one leg of the power system to the next. Would they
also couple spuriously-generated RF at similar frequencies?

Absolutely. The couplers I have seen inductively couple the BPL signal from the
low-voltage wiring onto a single phase of the medium-voltage wiring. One
manufacturer has provided an estimate that they have about 6 dB of loss. Right
now, you and perhaps 3-4 neighbors share a common electrical-wiring noise pool.
Their noise goes out their AC wiring and into yours. These couplers will
create community-wide noise pools, taking all electrical noise -- BPL or other
-- from house wiring, where it is radiated inefficiently, to overhead wiring.
You guys know about transmission lines and antennas -- do the math.

Will the entire BPL scheme spread all these other
spurious emissions far and wide?

Yes, it will.

And, by the way, since aircraft use AM, do they receive hash when they
fly over BPL lines? Are our brethren in aviation potentially useful
allies in this war?

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2003/11/14/101/?nc=1

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI