In WWII the allies were able to pinpoint the locations of German HF
transmissions very accurately. They were able to pinpoint the
locations of U-boats, etc. when they transmitted. (or so I have been
led to believe).

What methods did they use to do this? Is it something duplicatable
with Radio Amateurs in general or does it require some special type
equipment?


I hear lots of amateurs describing interference and other problems on
HF, but no one seems to be triangulating the offending stations. I am
guessing that the real secret was in their communications with the
'spotters' to triangulate the positions.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW

"Buck" wrote in message
...
In WWII the allies were able to pinpoint the locations of German HF
transmissions very accurately. They were able to pinpoint the
locations of U-boats, etc. when they transmitted. (or so I have been
led to believe).

What methods did they use to do this? Is it something duplicatable
with Radio Amateurs in general or does it require some special type
equipment?


I hear lots of amateurs describing interference and other problems on
HF, but no one seems to be triangulating the offending stations. I am
guessing that the real secret was in their communications with the
'spotters' to triangulate the positions.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW


Triangulating and so on, can and does work. You're talking a difference
between "war" and the need to know - vs - finding an offending station - to
shut it down, etc. The FCC isn't as involved as many would like to think.
They can't keep up with it. For others to do so, would be nothing short of
vigilante-ism. It's not worth being jailed or shot - trying to shut down an
offending station. Not to mention, most signals heard over hundreds or
thousands of miles away. Who really cares? Would you be willing to travel
the 1000 miles to put a stop to it? Probably not. Most new people can't
change a fuse - let alone triangulate. They're lucky they recall what a
resistor or capacitor is or does or even looks like once they put the book
down.

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:32:48 -0500, "cl" wrote:

Triangulating and so on, can and does work. You're talking a difference
between "war" and the need to know - vs - finding an offending station - to
shut it down, etc. The FCC isn't as involved as many would like to think.
They can't keep up with it. For others to do so, would be nothing short of
vigilante-ism. It's not worth being jailed or shot - trying to shut down an
offending station. Not to mention, most signals heard over hundreds or
thousands of miles away. Who really cares? Would you be willing to travel
the 1000 miles to put a stop to it? Probably not. Most new people can't
change a fuse - let alone triangulate. They're lucky they recall what a
resistor or capacitor is or does or even looks like once they put the book
down.


I wasn't proposing that they 'shut them down' but to triangulate them.
I don't know how accurate the locations were during the war, but I
hear they were pretty accurate.

I think you agreed with my assumption that, basically, it is a matter
of amateurs not being coordinated, or more accurately from you, not in
the right location.

Sometimes the offending station is nothing more than a stuck keyer,
but sometimes it is intentional interference.

As for the competency, I hate to admit it, but sometimes what I see
leads me to believe my IQ must be about 250. That isn't to offend
those with high IQ's as those who have a real-life 200 IQ must be the
equivalent of about 600 now.

Oh well, off the soapbox.

I wonder if there would be any interest in long-range fox hunts (not
the QRP version.)

--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW

"Buck" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:32:48 -0500, "cl" wrote:


As for the competency, I hate to admit it, but sometimes what I see
leads me to believe my IQ must be about 250. That isn't to offend
those with high IQ's as those who have a real-life 200 IQ must be the
equivalent of about 600 now.

Oh well, off the soapbox.

I wonder if there would be any interest in long-range fox hunts (not
the QRP version.)

--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW

Being one of the new nocode techs, I have no illusions re my overall radio
technical competency. I have one slight advantage over my newbie brethren
though. Having been a Jr. High shop teacher (woodwork, metalwork, drafting,
and electricity) I at least have some idea where to look for info that will
allow me to identify basic electronic components. Perhaps with license
upgrades I'll widen my knowledge and competency base, but for now antenna
building is my main DIY interest and such expertise is not yet required.
Your comments on IQs is interesting. Many businesses, after laying off older
workers for years, seem to be actively seeking elders again. Perhaps they've
decided that it's desirable to have at least some employees that can both
read and make change without a pocket calculator.(G)

Harold
KD5SAK

Buck wrote:
"What methods did they use to do this?"

Terman says on page 1046 of his 1955 "Electronic and Radio Engineering::
"The fact that radio waves propagate away from the transmitter alomg a
great-circle route makes radio direction finding a useful navigational
aid."

Ships and aircraft have been equipped with shielded loop antennas for
direction finding. At frequencies below 500 KHz,bearings can be read
within 1%.

Ionospheric reflection so scrambles polarizations at higher frequencies,
that loop bearings have higher errors.

An Adcock beam antenna can be made to ignore horizontally polarized
waves from a certain direction and respond to only the vertically
polarized waves. It suffers from very low signal pickup as compared with
a loop, but gives accurate bearings at high frequencies over a distance
of 100 miles where a loop would be useless.

In WW-2, aircraft and ships were often equipped with radios such as the
Bendix RA-1B multiband receiver and a loop antenna, or the navy `s
AN//ARC-5 equipment for direction finding.

Best regards, Richard harrison, KB5WZI

Great Britain had many antenna farms located many miles apart for direction
finding.

--

73
Hank WD5JFR
"Buck" wrote in message
...
In WWII the allies were able to pinpoint the locations of German HF
transmissions very accurately. They were able to pinpoint the
locations of U-boats, etc. when they transmitted. (or so I have been
led to believe).

What methods did they use to do this? Is it something duplicatable
with Radio Amateurs in general or does it require some special type
equipment?


I hear lots of amateurs describing interference and other problems on
HF, but no one seems to be triangulating the offending stations. I am
guessing that the real secret was in their communications with the
'spotters' to triangulate the positions.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW

Some years ago, the local gov department (fcc to you) here in aus carried
out test on their hf df. They were able to pinpoint a station in soth
australia within about 1 km or so. Impressive I thought at the time.

JE

"Buck" wrote in message
...
In WWII the allies were able to pinpoint the locations of German HF
transmissions very accurately. They were able to pinpoint the
locations of U-boats, etc. when they transmitted. (or so I have been
led to believe).

What methods did they use to do this? Is it something duplicatable
with Radio Amateurs in general or does it require some special type
equipment?


I hear lots of amateurs describing interference and other problems on
HF, but no one seems to be triangulating the offending stations. I am
guessing that the real secret was in their communications with the
'spotters' to triangulate the positions.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW

Interestingly, aircraft used small loop type antennas for MF/HF DF in the
40s and 50s. Just turn loop for a null, and (maybe) use an omni sense
antenna. Two spaced reception stations give a reasonable fix for a ground
system.

JE

"John Edwards" wrote in message
news
Some years ago, the local gov department (fcc to you) here in aus carried
out test on their hf df. They were able to pinpoint a station in soth
australia within about 1 km or so. Impressive I thought at the time.

JE

"Buck" wrote in message
...
In WWII the allies were able to pinpoint the locations of German HF
transmissions very accurately. They were able to pinpoint the
locations of U-boats, etc. when they transmitted. (or so I have been
led to believe).

What methods did they use to do this? Is it something duplicatable
with Radio Amateurs in general or does it require some special type
equipment?


I hear lots of amateurs describing interference and other problems on
HF, but no one seems to be triangulating the offending stations. I am
guessing that the real secret was in their communications with the
'spotters' to triangulate the positions.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW

One night in 1944, there were a thousand Lancaster killing machines and
other RAF bombers over Germany, complete with aircrews who well knew what
they were about. It was a moonless and cloud-overcast night over the whole
of Western Europe. Targets were civilian firestorm-raids on German towns and
cities.

Navigation was via GEE equipment, a British hyperbolic, pulse-radar, VHF,
1942 invention which later, as the LF and VLF versions, was given the
American name of LORAN (who copied it in the same size boxes.)

With GEE it was possible to accurately navigate several hundred miles from
base and return safely even with fog over the airfield. Aircrews had become
to depend on it and had neglected, forgotten how to use, other means of
navigation such as dead-reckoning and the magnetic compass.

From shot-down and crashed aircraft the Germans had discovered the
frequencies used by GEE receivers and fathomed-out how the equipment worked.
But instead of using jammers immediately as they came out of the factories
they waited until there was an appreciable quantity of them, waited until
navigation conditions were difficult, no moon or stars, dispersed the
jammers around Europe, waited until there were a 1000 bombers in the air,
and then switched them all on simultaneously.

German radar-controlled anti-aircraft guns were always accurate. They were
used in clear skies in daylight, sometimes in preference to optical
instruments and range finders. Hundreds of bombers, lost, wandering about
Europe were better than usual targets.

More than 100 heavy bombers failed to return to base. Some crash-landed,
running out of fuel in Sweden, Poland, central Europe, northern Italy,
France, even in north Africa. Others came down in the north sea. It was the
geatest disaster in one night ever incurred by the RAF.

Although heavy losses and damage to aircraft was a normal event, the loss of
more than 100 trained aircrews was a catastrophy. Incidentally, during the
whole war 40,000 aircrew lives were lost due to enemy action and another
30,000 were lost due to flying accidents of one sort and another.

But, as usual, Uncle Sam helped us out. GI's left behind 70,000 unmarried
mothers in the UK.

I just love statistics! ;o)
----
Reg.

And your problem is?
Being of German descent with relatives in Germany, I feel that the
German people got what they deserved. Actions by the Luftwaffe were just
as horrific in London, Warsaw, Stalingrad and Antwerp to name a few.
The Luftwafe had similar devices to locate their targets in England with
the same results when their systems were captured by British Military
Intelligence (what an oxymoron).
BTW the Lancaster was one of the finest aircraft of it's type ever.

Dave WD9BDZ


Reg Edwards wrote:

One night in 1944, there were a thousand Lancaster killing machines and
other RAF bombers over Germany, complete with aircrews who well knew what
they were about. It was a moonless and cloud-overcast night over the whole
of Western Europe. Targets were civilian firestorm-raids on German towns and
cities.

Navigation was via GEE equipment, a British hyperbolic, pulse-radar, VHF,
1942 invention which later, as the LF and VLF versions, was given the
American name of LORAN (who copied it in the same size boxes.)

With GEE it was possible to accurately navigate several hundred miles from
base and return safely even with fog over the airfield. Aircrews had become
to depend on it and had neglected, forgotten how to use, other means of
navigation such as dead-reckoning and the magnetic compass.

From shot-down and crashed aircraft the Germans had discovered the
frequencies used by GEE receivers and fathomed-out how the equipment worked.
But instead of using jammers immediately as they came out of the factories
they waited until there was an appreciable quantity of them, waited until
navigation conditions were difficult, no moon or stars, dispersed the
jammers around Europe, waited until there were a 1000 bombers in the air,
and then switched them all on simultaneously.

German radar-controlled anti-aircraft guns were always accurate. They were
used in clear skies in daylight, sometimes in preference to optical
instruments and range finders. Hundreds of bombers, lost, wandering about
Europe were better than usual targets.

More than 100 heavy bombers failed to return to base. Some crash-landed,
running out of fuel in Sweden, Poland, central Europe, northern Italy,
France, even in north Africa. Others came down in the north sea. It was the
geatest disaster in one night ever incurred by the RAF.

Although heavy losses and damage to aircraft was a normal event, the loss of
more than 100 trained aircrews was a catastrophy. Incidentally, during the
whole war 40,000 aircrew lives were lost due to enemy action and another
30,000 were lost due to flying accidents of one sort and another.

But, as usual, Uncle Sam helped us out. GI's left behind 70,000 unmarried
mothers in the UK.

I just love statistics! ;o)
----
Reg.