Well, you missed the whole point--and maybe I am NOT all that gifted at
expressing my thoughts...

Let's reset to reality, I am saying, "Ones 'mental model' is highly
indicative of what they are going to perceive!"

Don't credit me with more complexity than I am capable of, or wanting to put
forward....



Warmest regards,
John

Errr, notice in the above thread, to my favor, I DID say "jest" and NOT
"gist" !!!

grin

Warmest regards,
John

That's exactly what I am saying, Reg. Before man, the
universe got along just fine without the existence of
time. Why does the universe need time now that we are
here?
--
73, Cecil

=============================

Well, Cec, my old pal, why didn't you say so in the first place? ;o)
---
Reg.

Well, I am surprised at you BOTH!!!
You know why!!!
Because it needs an observer(s) to exist properly!!!!
Crud, "God" would not be bothered with the likes of us--if this were NOT
true--that is proof in itself! grin

Warmest regards,
John

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...
|
| That's exactly what I am saying, Reg. Before man, the
| universe got along just fine without the existence of
| time. Why does the universe need time now that we are
| here?
| --
| 73, Cecil
|
| =============================
|
| Well, Cec, my old pal, why didn't you say so in the first place? ;o)
| ---
| Reg.
|
|

Yes, but, I interpret that as, "There is yet another effect? law? force?
which we don't know about, and we have to reference as a property of time
just to begin a "mental model" of it--since we have not yet comprehended
it..." (perhaps it is "God" rolling over in his sleep? Gawd! I hope "God"
doesn't wake up yet--he is going to be PI$$ED!!!!) grin

Warmest regards,
John

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
| John Smith wrote:
| Yes, we have a precise measurement of that exact moment!!! (when the
Earth
| began its' first revolution!!!)
|
| Precisely 4.5 billion years ago. :-) Strange as it may seem,
| there is evidence, gathered by comparing Bristlecone Pine
| rings to atomic dating methods, that a second today is
| shorter than a second was yesterday. Shortening the length
| of a second gives a whole new meaning to the Red Shift.
| --
| 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
|
|
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John Smith wrote:
But, I am not sure the big bang only left free neutrons and electrons (which
had to form atoms)--I was thinking more "whole atoms" of some type...

You left out protons. There existed a condition after the Big
Bang where everything was too hot to form "whole atoms".
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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At this time, I think it is important to interject the following, and
clarify my position:

I value GREATLY the men and women (even the ITs) who have gone before me.

They have laid a good foundation and provided me with tools of which a value
cannot be placed--knowledge is priceless...

And, I would always explain (with my limited abilities) the concepts which
provide a "language" so we can all communicate, effectively, on the subject
of radio and its' affects/effects... I respect the right of "impedance",
"reactance" and such to exist in concept... (even time--although I wish we
thought in terms of "Earth Revolutions" and fractions thereof; even the
concept of cold I can accept grin)

The forefathers of radio are at least as great as those forefathers of our
nation.

I would give all I own to have stood beside such men as Benjamin Franklin,
Nicola Tesla, Faraday, Armstrong, Deforest, etc... I am born too late for
anything so exciting--I only hope the future has such moments left... I
think it does (in fact, I "religiously" believe!)...



So, now those who would denounce me as a "Rebellious Idiot" should be
quieted (well, somewhat)!!! I am NOT rebellious!!!

grin


Warmest regards,
John

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
| Let me give you my "Mental Model."
|
| There is no such thing as "cold."
| There is no such thing as "heat." (there is infrared radiation--i.e. a
| frequency(s) of vibration of atoms)
| Cold is the absence of heat, absolute cold (absolute zero) is a single
| measurement of one state of heat (vibration/movement of atomic
| particles)--NONE!
| Heat (hot) is really a measurement of the state of exicted
atomic/sub-atomic
| particles movement, and of that movement producing "heat" through the
| friction produced by the movement of these atomic particles...
|
| Next, there is no such thing as "time!" Time is simply a measurement of
| movement! Indeed, our time is based on the rotation of the sun and
| planets... (atomic time on the decay of a radioactive substance--but
again,
| physical change and movement!)
|
| I realize that specific "mental models" have been created, taught, adopted
| and followed (too religiously if you ask me!) for discussing and
describing
| "radio." However, most of these are far from "real things!"
|
| Warmest regards,
| John
|
|

Well, that is beyond my comprehension, that much "space" being "too hot",
never-the-less, you could well be correct...

Regards,
John

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
| John Smith wrote:
| But, I am not sure the big bang only left free neutrons and electrons
(which
| had to form atoms)--I was thinking more "whole atoms" of some type...
|
| You left out protons. There existed a condition after the Big
| Bang where everything was too hot to form "whole atoms".
| --
| 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
|
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John Smith wrote:
Well, that is beyond my comprehension, that much "space" being "too hot",
never-the-less, you could well be correct...

There wasn't "that much space" back then. I forget how big
the Big Bang source space was, but it was extremely small
compared to the present universe and therefore extremely hot.
Incidentally, our "laws" of physics don't work until some
time after the Big Bang.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Cecil Moore wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

Time is very real to us mortals, Cecil.


So is God (whether He exists in reality or not).
Question is: Did time exist before man?

It is an interesting question. Certainly life forms that presumably do
*not* have consciousness, such as bacteria, have a beginning, a being
and an end. So is time dependent upon a life form possessing sentience?
If a sentient being such as man is not there to invent the concept of
time, do all those constructs that have a beginning and end cease to exist?

A year is
simply movement, once around the sun. I've been
here for about 40 billion miles around the sun. Is
that time or simply distance?

Years are constructs of humanity. It is simply a convenient method of
marking things that *happen*, such as the position of the stars, which
as it turns out , is a manifestation of the period in which the earth
returns to some initial observation point.

No doubt it is similar to our using base 10 math because we happen to
have 10 fingers.

Am I winding down
because of the years or simply, like my '96 pickup,
because of the miles?

Entropy, My dear Cecil, entropy!

More importantly, as the great sage Homer Simpson asked:

"Can God make a burrito so hot that he can't eat it?"

- Mike KB3EIA -