Dave wrote:
now, someone please put a bird meter on a tdr and
see what the characteristic impedance of it is internally. then put it on a
network analyzer and see if it does indeed transform the 'environment' from
75 to 50 ohms in its 40mm length. oh and while you are at it calculate the
s factors for all the transitions, those will come up in the discussion here
shortly.

Probably all that is needed is to measure the Bird's s11
parameter while sitting in a 75 ohm environment. I'll
bet it's very close to zero.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:55:57 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote:

They why bother with characteristic impedance at all?

This is your question and no one else's.

If Z0 doesn't establish a Z0 environment, then all transmission
lines are just alike and transmission theory is hogwash.

And this is your understanding - alone and in isolation from the rest
of us. Only you, by your logic arrived here by twists and turns.

It has no doubt slipped your mind that on one of those turns, the
requirement for x length of line was lost into the byways of this
labyrinth you traverse.

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:45:34 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote:

bet it's very close to zero.
Another one of your rounding errors like where light 10 times brighter
than the sun is black.

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
t...
Dave wrote:
ah, but if the bird does establish a 50 ohm 'environment' within its 40mm
housing then the reading that was actually obtained is indeed correct.
so now, how else could you read zero reflected power at that point if it
didn't establish that environment?

Would you like for me to go through the math of a voltage and
current sampled at a point without disturbing anything?

Assume the voltage is sampled such that 100v of net voltage
is sampled as 10 volts.

Assume the current is sampled such that two amps of net current
is sampled as 10 volts.

If these samples are in phase, adding them will result in 20v.
That equals 200 watts of forward power on the meter.

Subtracting them will result in zero volts. That equals zero
watts of reflected power on the meter.

The sampled net voltage and net current determine the 50 ohm
calibration. No 50 ohm environment required.

If the sample point is in 75 ohm coax with no reflections, the
sample voltage will be 12.3 volts and the sample current will
8.165 volts. Subtracting those sample values doesn't yield zero
so 41.35 watts of reflected power will be reported where none
actually exists.

but there will be a reflection at the 50 ohm to 75 ohm transition on the
load side of the meter.


So unless the mere writing of my words on this newsgroup
establishes a 50 ohm environment, the Bird doesn't need to
establish a 50 ohm environment to obtain the same above
results.

If the Bird indeed did control the environment into which
it was inserted, it would be violating a design goal for
measuring instruments and Bird wouldn't be selling many
of those highly intrusive devices. Bird wants the meter to
be as unobtrusive as possible and it is.

who says an instrument can't control it's environment? and who makes that a
design goal?? and who are you to say that bird wanted to make the meter
'unobtrusive'?? every instrument has some loading or effect on the circuit
it measures, some more than others. some even include 50 or 75 ohm loads
internally to load the circuit they are attached to. Ones that pass a
signal through their own sensing circuit often have more of an effect than
others.

Richard Clark wrote:
It has no doubt slipped your mind that on one of those turns, the
requirement for x length of line was lost into the byways of this
labyrinth you traverse.

Nope, it hasn't slipped my mind. So here's a question for you.
Is a zero length of 50 ohm coax sufficient to establish a
50 ohm environment?
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Richard Clark wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
bet it's very close to zero.

Another one of your rounding errors like where light 10 times brighter
than the sun is black.

I see you understand this subject just as well as you
understood that one.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Dave wrote:
but there will be a reflection at the 50 ohm to 75 ohm transition on the
load side of the meter.

It was previously reported that the path through the Bird
is 40mm. The path through the Bird is actually about five
inches which is probably long enough to establish a 50 ohm
environment.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
t...
Richard Clark wrote:
It has no doubt slipped your mind that on one of those turns, the
requirement for x length of line was lost into the byways of this
labyrinth you traverse.

Nope, it hasn't slipped my mind. So here's a question for you.
Is a zero length of 50 ohm coax sufficient to establish a
50 ohm environment?

you build it and i'll measure it and let you know.

Dave wrote:

"Cecil Moore" wrote:
Nope, it hasn't slipped my mind. So here's a question for you.
Is a zero length of 50 ohm coax sufficient to establish a
50 ohm environment?

you build it and i'll measure it and let you know.

It's in the middle of a piece of 75 ohm coax.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
t...
Dave wrote:

"Cecil Moore" wrote:
Nope, it hasn't slipped my mind. So here's a question for you.
Is a zero length of 50 ohm coax sufficient to establish a
50 ohm environment?

you build it and i'll measure it and let you know.

It's in the middle of a piece of 75 ohm coax.

i just measured it at 50 ohms. so there.

create an impossible condition, get an impossible answer.