Gentlemen
I am not a electrical engineer or antenna expert e.t.c.
The above controversy is purely about the term 'lumped' items such as
resistance, capacitance and inductances, all of which are mythical.
Each of these three items contain parts of the others and the label
assigned to each of these is that which DOMINATE. So an inductance has
resistance and capacitance as well as the inductance but the latter is
what predominates.
Since all these have three items are part of its label they are
obviously circuits. When you read the handbook they show an equivalent
circuit for an antenna as a circuit with the mythical lumped
inductance, resistance and capacitance which can be used for advantage
in solving circuits in a mathematical aproach only in the same way
mathematics use the mythical
sq root of -1 .
Now I know educated people in the field are aware of this but for
some reason they want to make it look dificult.
Let me give an example of how lumped loads can be used to advantage.
We have a tuner with two variable capacitances and a variable
inductance,
this assembly does not radiate.( NOT INTENDED TO)
If we change the capacitances to circuits that contains resistance,
inductance as well as the predominating variable capacitance and use
another circuit that has all of these but with the predominant
inductance we can connect the two capacitive circuits by the
connecting inductive circuit by common inductive coupling.
Now have an equivalent circuit to the tuner that we started with, It
not only radiates but preserves the function of a tuner REGARDLESS of
the size of the radiators
Thus by changing the format backwards from the so called lumped
constants of the tuner we now have a radiating coupled assembly that
is the basis for small antennas without relationship to wave length.
This is the exact antenna I have
driven by my rotator on the top of my tower for top band use. It
radiates but
also retains all the original functions for direct connection to a
transmitter or feedline without the original separate matching system
or tuner.
It is time for people to get back to basics, that resistance,
inductance and capacitances are all electrical CIRCUITS and NOT a
lumped spot.
Accepting these facts forces one to consider what a current reaction
is when meeting ANY of the constituents of the so called lumped
circuit i.e. capacitance generates a phase change, period. Only the
amount of phase change
can be up for discussion.
A long posting but not as long as the thread started by Roy in
response to my last posting on this discussion which apparently ticked
him off..

Have at it guys
Regards
Art.
A nobody with no credabilty !

Art, KB9MZ wrote:
"---resistance, inductance and capacitance are all electrical CIRCUITS
and NOT a lumped spot."

I`m guessing Art`s point was that all circuit elements are impure. A
resistor has lead inductance and is shunted by self-capacitance, etc.
That is not the only cause of anomaly. Size in terms of wavelength means
that radiation becomes significant in some cases, especially in
structures designed to radiate.

If there is radiation from a circuit, ordinary circuit analysis does not
apply say King, Mimno, and Wing, all Ph.D.`s at Harvard teaching U.S.
Army and Navy officers in the Graduate School of Engineering during
WW-2.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Art:

[snip]
A nobody with no credabilty !
[snip]

Cry baby!

[snip]
It is time for people to get back to basics, that resistance,
inductance and capacitances are all electrical CIRCUITS and NOT a
lumped spot.
Accepting these facts forces one to consider what a current reaction
is when meeting ANY of the constituents of the so called lumped
circuit
[snip]

Heh, heh... Electrodynamics...

Circuit Electrodynamics:

In the beginning there was Circuit Theory [Ohm, Kirchoff] which was
found wanting....

Field Electrodynamics:

Then there came Field Theory [Maxwell, Heaviside], which was found
wanting...

Quantum Electrodynamics:

Then there came Quantum Electrodynamics [Einstein, Pauli, Schrodinger,
Dirac, Feynman] and to date... nothing is found wanting...

What, exactly is your problem?

Circuit Theory, Field Theory and finally Quantum Theory are all evermore
exact
models of the real world. For many problems Circuit Theory suffices, but...

For those knowledgeable... they move from Circuit-Theoretic models to
Field-Theoretic models when the situation warrants, and they move from
Field-Theoretic models to Quantum-Theoretic models [QED] when the
situation warrants...

Don't use QED as the infrastructure of a Spice program and don't
use Circuit Theory as the infrastructure of an NEC program!

An Engineer is... a person who knows how to model efficiently and...

When to change models...

What?

--
Peter K1PO
Indialantic By-the-Sea, FL

"
Peter,
I have no idea what you are talking about which is probably
why you didn't get any responses to your posting.
It doesn't seem to say anything and then you put a word
"what " at the end, which I can only guess it means you have
change your mind on what you stated earlier (It is the best
I could come up with
Frankly I don't see that 'What" term in my books or in the
newespapers so I presume it must be a Cajun type dielect that
is used in the swamps or something. You used it a lot when you ran
Chip off the group but since I don't know what you are talking about
I will stay on even tho Ian and Roy have now fled.
Art





Peter O. Brackett" wrote in message link.net...
Art:

[snip]
A nobody with no credabilty !
[snip]

Cry baby!

[snip]
It is time for people to get back to basics, that resistance,
inductance and capacitances are all electrical CIRCUITS and NOT a
lumped spot.
Accepting these facts forces one to consider what a current reaction
is when meeting ANY of the constituents of the so called lumped
circuit
[snip]

Heh, heh... Electrodynamics...

Circuit Electrodynamics:

In the beginning there was Circuit Theory [Ohm, Kirchoff] which was
found wanting....

Field Electrodynamics:

Then there came Field Theory [Maxwell, Heaviside], which was found
wanting...

Quantum Electrodynamics:

Then there came Quantum Electrodynamics [Einstein, Pauli, Schrodinger,
Dirac, Feynman] and to date... nothing is found wanting...

What, exactly is your problem?

Circuit Theory, Field Theory and finally Quantum Theory are all evermore
exact
models of the real world. For many problems Circuit Theory suffices, but...

For those knowledgeable... they move from Circuit-Theoretic models to
Field-Theoretic models when the situation warrants, and they move from
Field-Theoretic models to Quantum-Theoretic models [QED] when the
situation warrants...

Don't use QED as the infrastructure of a Spice program and don't
use Circuit Theory as the infrastructure of an NEC program!

An Engineer is... a person who knows how to model efficiently and...

When to change models...

What?

Art,
Or, people do have an idea of what Peter is talking about,
and agree.
Art, you can't peek through a key hole and call it a 'world
view' without it being a 'small world'... "what?".
'Doc

Art:

[snip]
Frankly I don't see that 'What" term in my books or in the
newespapers so I presume it must be a Cajun type dielect that
is used in the swamps or something. You used it a lot when you ran
Chip off the group but since I don't know what you are talking about
I will stay on even tho Ian and Roy have now fled.
Art
[snip]

Heh, heh... Well, I got the term "What?" and that particular usage from my
then...
teenage sons, both now in their mid-thirties, but no grandchildren, What?

"Cajun", heh, heh... Hey... I was born in the "real" Acadia [Nova Scotia]
and so was formerly a British Subject. I left for the "colonies" lo these
many years ago and I am no longer taxed without representation. Since
I immigrated, I have always lived in the "Deep South".

I have been to "Luzianne" and "Nawlins" often and I have many
Cajun friends. I have been properly introduced to "crab boils", "pulled
pork" and the pleasures of cayenne pepper and "crawdads".

But... I have never "run off" any real persons, only pretentious, oafs
flouting advanced University degrees!

Best Regards,
--
Peter K1PO

'Doc wrote in message ...
Art,
Or, people do have an idea of what Peter is talking about,
and agree.
Art, you can't peek through a key hole and call it a 'world
view' without it being a 'small world'... "what?".
'Doc


Doc

There you go again attacking a poster without adding any
substance to the discussion. Just for once to prove your not full of
sh#t, explain if you can, what Peter is talking about.
Perhaps you could also enlighten us with your theory of the
subject at hand, but then, as most readers know on this group you
"never" get involved in depth you just stand on the sidelines throwing
barbs at those with the ability to do so.
Jaro

But Peter you said something about changing a model
What was that all about ?
Regards
Art





"Peter O. Brackett" wrote in message ink.net...
Art:

[snip]
Frankly I don't see that 'What" term in my books or in the
newespapers so I presume it must be a Cajun type dielect that
is used in the swamps or something. You used it a lot when you ran
Chip off the group but since I don't know what you are talking about
I will stay on even tho Ian and Roy have now fled.
Art
[snip]

Heh, heh... Well, I got the term "What?" and that particular usage from my
then...
teenage sons, both now in their mid-thirties, but no grandchildren, What?

"Cajun", heh, heh... Hey... I was born in the "real" Acadia [Nova Scotia]
and so was formerly a British Subject. I left for the "colonies" lo these
many years ago and I am no longer taxed without representation. Since
I immigrated, I have always lived in the "Deep South".

I have been to "Luzianne" and "Nawlins" often and I have many
Cajun friends. I have been properly introduced to "crab boils", "pulled
pork" and the pleasures of cayenne pepper and "crawdads".

But... I have never "run off" any real persons, only pretentious, oafs
flouting advanced University degrees!

Best Regards,

Peter,
I have read your posting again and again
without commic thoughts to the term 'What'
and I have no intention of following 'Doc"
I do see that you are educated as I believe I am,
tho I am not a Doctor.
But where you and I differ is in philosophy.
One can become educated by following the crowd
and concentrate on what is necessary to pass the exam.
By the same token one can do the same but place attention to what is
pushed aside as being inconsequential in terms of general useage ans
inductance
pretty much fits into that bracket, whereas even the inconsequental
information is also pursued by the inquisitive.
To make money in life one can push aside what is inconsequential
but if you are inquisitive it is often the study of what is placed on
the cutting room floor that provides inovation, the latter is what I
do.
Now let us consider my model and since you are educated I can cut some
corners.
When looking at antennas current is everything so that is where
inovation starts.
An examle where current can be changed is a simple transformere.
It has two seperate circuits and it satisfies lawas of E = I R
( add cos phi if you want to )but what it does do that one doesn't
normally thing off is to add the function of coupling.
Link coupling when coils are wound on top of each other or proximity
coupling when wound on separate bobbins. So thinking outside of the
box we have a model that matches its power input, has two circuits
that are connected and suplies a means for high current flow. All of
this is down to COUPLING....
Now this tyransformer model provides exactly what the World requires
of an antenna and pushes aside physical dimensions such as wavelength,
radials e.t.c. I know ...there is nothing new.....
Now apply that same thinking to the subject of antennas.
We have an equivalent item that we use for matching purposes and
that is a pi network. Now we have the means of providing matching
to an antenna with capacitance etc. to provide an output
but remember what we called inconsequential about lumped items which
are really attempts to remove what we originally disliked ala coupled
networks.
By coupling circuits ( networks) we can maintain ideal input matching,
increase current into a desired circuit and because it is a circuit
it will radiate. And do it very well with high efficiency as well as
meeting the reqirement for high radiation by virtue of the increased
current.

Now this model or way of thought is new but it is a different
application
of the known that is considered inconsequential and thus is not seen
in books
that is written for crowd followers. Should one discard a model
just because it is not in a book ? Not if you are inquisitive, you
then make
such a system that has all these desirably qualities and enjoy your
efforts
while others who rely only on books or exercise their mouths poke fun
because to them it is unknown.
I HAVE THAT ANTENNA AND IT WORKS EXACTLY CCORDING TO KNOWN THEORY
you are welcome to point out any fallacies as why it shouldn't
or can't work as I believe it is the new horizon for antennas
and experimental work.
Regards
Art

(Richard Harrison) wrote in message ...
Art, KB9MZ wrote:
"---resistance, inductance and capacitance are all electrical CIRCUITS
and NOT a lumped spot."

I`m guessing Art`s point was that all circuit elements are impure. A
resistor has lead inductance and is shunted by self-capacitance, etc.
That is not the only cause of anomaly. Size in terms of wavelength means
that radiation becomes significant in some cases, especially in
structures designed to radiate.

If there is radiation from a circuit, ordinary circuit analysis does not
apply say King, Mimno, and Wing, all Ph.D.`s at Harvard teaching U.S.
Army and Navy officers in the Graduate School of Engineering during
WW-2.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Exactly Richard,
To have an iductor you must have wire length and if it is part of a
circuit
it therefore radiates. No messing around with theoretical back SWR to
confuse the issue or mythical components. The real world says
inductance is just part of many things that come as part of it
including length which means radiation and capacitance which means
phase angle change.
In the case of radiation it must beconsidered as a 'loss' when solving
equations. The so called experts are really screwing around to provide
a platform to show off there learned minds instead of sticking to
basics
Art