New Program : LINELEN.exe

This program calculates dipole feedpoint impedance, transmission line
input impedance, and balun input impedance, versus frequency.

Dipole and line can be of any length. Line Zo can be of any
impedance.

Power lost in antenna and line is calculated. Also overall loss.

In addition to its educational value, this program will assist users
to change line length when the impedance presented to the tuner is
beyond its capability to transform it to a resistive 50 ohms.

Download self-contained program LINELEN, file size = 53 K-bytes, from
website below.
----
.................................................. ..........
Regards from Reg, G4FGQ
For Free Radio Design Software go to
http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp
.................................................. ..........

On Wed, 31 May 2006 00:58:58 +0100, "Reg Edwards"
wrote:

New Program : LINELEN.exe

This program calculates dipole feedpoint impedance, transmission line
input impedance, and balun input impedance, versus frequency.

Dipole and line can be of any length. Line Zo can be of any
impedance.

Power lost in antenna and line is calculated. Also overall loss.

In addition to its educational value, this program will assist users
to change line length when the impedance presented to the tuner is
beyond its capability to transform it to a resistive 50 ohms.

Download self-contained program LINELEN, file size = 53 K-bytes, from
website below.
----
................................................. ..........
Regards from Reg, G4FGQ
For Free Radio Design Software go to
http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp
................................................. ..........


For the Wireman's ladderline # 551, where would I find the line loss
at 10 mhz in db per 100 feet (and why feet, when the other parameters
are in meters?)?

bob
k5qwg

Hi Reg,

Thank you for making yet another of your projects available
to the group!

But I am curious: What program inputs are required to
calculate losses for tuners and baluns? Schematics? ;-)
Coil Q? Wire type and gauge? Loss factors for ferrites?
And how would one KNOW these parameters for real-world
examples, say a Palstar AT-1500DT versus an Ameritron
ATR-30?

Ed

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...
New Program : LINELEN.exe

This program calculates dipole feedpoint impedance, transmission line
input impedance, and balun input impedance, versus frequency.

Dipole and line can be of any length. Line Zo can be of any
impedance.

Power lost in antenna and line is calculated. Also overall loss.

In addition to its educational value, this program will assist users
to change line length when the impedance presented to the tuner is
beyond its capability to transform it to a resistive 50 ohms.

Download self-contained program LINELEN, file size = 53 K-bytes, from
website below.
----
.................................................. .........
Regards from Reg, G4FGQ
For Free Radio Design Software go to
http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp
.................................................. .........

On Wed, 31 May 2006 18:06:32 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:


For the Wireman's ladderline # 551, where would I find the line loss
at 10 mhz in db per 100 feet (and why feet, when the other parameters
are in meters?)?

~0.17dB
--

"Old Ed" asked -

But I am curious: What program inputs are required to
calculate losses for tuners and baluns? Schematics? ;-)
Coil Q? Wire type and gauge? Loss factors for ferrites?
And how would one KNOW these parameters for real-world
examples, say a Palstar AT-1500DT versus an Ameritron
ATR-30?
=========================================

Ed,

I've just spent half an hour thinking about how to answer your
question without having to write books on the various subjects.

What sort of gadgets are a Palstar AT-1500AT and an Ameritron
ATR-30? Who are Palstar and Ameritron anyway?

Manufacturers might know. Have you tried Google?
----
Reg.

On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 03:04:33 +0100, "Reg Edwards"
wrote:

Bob asked -
For the Wireman's ladderline # 551, where would I find the line loss
at 10 mhz in db per 100 feet (and why feet, when the other
parameters
are in meters?)?

=======================================
Bob,

If you don't know the attenuation of your transmission line you
shouldn't be using it.

A standard method of defining the vital attenuation parameter of a
transmission lines is "Decibels per 100 feet at some frequency or
other." It is probably stated in that form in bibles such as ARRL
publications.

And a reputable American manufacturer will probably state it in his
sales catalogue. Or he ought to.

Frequency is mentioned because knowing the attenuation at one
frequency allows it to be accurately calculated at any other
frequency. As is done thousands ot times in the program.

The program asks for dB per 100 feet because, out of consideration for
USA citizens, the foot is the unit of length with which they are most
familiar. And for the rest of the World there is a statement in the
program notes that "100 feet = 30 metres."

The alternative to asking for dB per 100 feet at 10 MHz is to provide
a look-up table which lists by name the attenuation of hundreds of
different types of transmission line used in the USA and the rest of
the World.

Or the program could ask for conductor diameters and conductor spacing
in the case of twin lines, inner and outer diameters for coaxial
lines, also the dimensions and electrical properties of the insulating
materials. And then calculate attenuation versus frequency.

A large number of numerical program input items would detract from a
program's usefulness. Users would soon get fed up with using it. And
the programmer would get tired of writing any more.

Attenuation and Zo are the most important parameters of a transmission
line. To keep things simple for both program users AND the programmer
it is best that both parameters be entered directly.

Try Google.

The main purpose of the program is to calculate the impedance
presented to the tuner. For accuracy, line loss must be taken into
account.
----
Reg.


Got everything plugged in -- works very nicely -- thanks... fun to
change line & feedline length and see what that does at various
frequencies.

bob
k5qwg

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 00:06:47 GMT, Owen Duffy wrote:

On Wed, 31 May 2006 18:06:32 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:


For the Wireman's ladderline # 551, where would I find the line loss
at 10 mhz in db per 100 feet (and why feet, when the other parameters
are in meters?)?

~0.17dB

You didn't ask, but you need to know Zo is approx 400 ohms.
--

See below...

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...

"Old Ed" asked -

But I am curious: What program inputs are required to
calculate losses for tuners and baluns? Schematics? ;-)
Coil Q? Wire type and gauge? Loss factors for ferrites?
And how would one KNOW these parameters for real-world
examples, say a Palstar AT-1500DT versus an Ameritron
ATR-30?
=========================================

Ed,

I've just spent half an hour thinking about how to answer your
question without having to write books on the various subjects.

What sort of gadgets are a Palstar AT-1500AT and an Ameritron
ATR-30? Who are Palstar and Ameritron anyway?

Manufacturers might know. Have you tried Google?
----
Reg.

Reg,

Perhaps I assumed too much about amateur radio being a global
market.

Palstar is the brand name of a popular line of high-end antenna
tuners (aka transmatches) that are made in the U.S.A. Ameritron
is best known for their broad line of H.F. power amplifiers, but
they also make a couple of antenna tuners; the ATR-30 is one.
(They are now a division of MFJ; and it would be amazing if
you haven't heard of MFJ.)

Feel free to substitute antenna tuner models that are more familiar
to you into my question, if that will make it easier to understand.
I'll also try restating the question:

What parameters does a user input into your newly-posted program
in order to estimate tuner and/or balun losses?

Predicting such losses seems inherently difficult to me; and
even if the program could handle all the necessary parameters,
I have a hard time seeing how one could obtain the necessary
values to characterize typical commercial (or homebrew) tuners
and/or baluns.

Re Google, doing a search on "Palstar" leads one straight to
their products, including the AT-1500 series:
http://www.palstar.com/at1500cv.php
Similarly, doing a Google search on Ameritron leads one straight
to their products, including the ATR-30:
http://www.ameritron.com/products.php?prodid=ATR-30

But I am sure that neither manufacturer has posted parameter
values to use in your program--despite your well-deserved
notoriety in this NG. So I am quite sure that Googling for
those would be unproductive.

Ed

"Old Ed" asked -

What parameters does a user input into your newly-posted program
in order to estimate tuner and/or balun losses?

=========================================
Ed,

Program LINELEN's primary purpose is to calculate the impedance
presented to a tuner. It will assist the user to change the length of
the transmission line, hopefully to bring the impedance into a range
of values which can be better handled by a tuner.

The program cannot predict tuner losses. It has not been designed to
so.

You are asking what input data would be required if I wrote another
program which included calculation of losses in a tuner.

There is already a program named T_TUNER which designs a common or
garden T-tuner and also estimates its losses. In practice, nearly
every manufacturer uses the same basic circuit which consists of two
variable capacitors, each of about 350 pF maximum, 30 pF minimum, and
a coil which may be tapped to change bands or it may be a variable
roller-coaster.

For a different tuner circuit another program is needed. There are
L_TUNER, Pi_L_NET, PI_TANK. And DIPOLE3 which deals with antenna +
balanced line + balun + coax + Tuner Design.

Download program T_TUNER and read the informative introductory notes.

Input data includes maximum capacitor settings. The program
automatically prevents maximum capacitor settings from being exceeded.
This is a form of technical information which restricts practical
operation. Minimum component settings are not called for. But the
program user must keep in mind, when calculated capacitor settings are
less than the actual value with capacitor vanes completely unmeshed,
the tuner won't work.

The program asks for capacitor Q and coil Q. The progam user will have
to take the tuner out of its case and inspect construction and then
make use of his experience and judgement. It will not be worthwhile
taking the thing apart to measure component Q. Q is needed to estimate
component losses for a given transmitter power. The program gives
advice about estimation of Q values.

When a program includes design of a coil, length, diameter, wire
gauge, etc., its Q is always calculated. Whether the power loss is
calculated depends on program application.

The program user will also have to estimate maximum working volts of
the capacitors although this is not a program input. But the program
does calculate and display actual capacitor volts for a given
transmitter power.

Equipment power related performance parameters are nearly always
estimates. T_TUNER has built-in estimates. There is no point in
calculating to a greater accuracy than contained in the user's input
data. Very often crude estimates are good enough. As the programmer
I reserve the right to decide just how crude. And you can't argue with
me. You can always have your money back. ;o)

The same applies, for example, to estimates of radiated RF power for a
given transmitter output power when there are losses in the SWR
meter, the tuner, the balun, transmission line, antenna, and the
ground.

It is only necessary for a program user to realise that he, himself,
invariably makes estimates.

Most amateurs and many professional enginers suffer from delusions of
accuracy, often proudly naming their measuring instruments.
----
Reg, G4FGQ.

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 03:49:04 GMT, Owen Duffy wrote:

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 00:06:47 GMT, Owen Duffy wrote:

On Wed, 31 May 2006 18:06:32 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:


For the Wireman's ladderline # 551, where would I find the line loss
at 10 mhz in db per 100 feet (and why feet, when the other parameters
are in meters?)?

~0.17dB

You didn't ask, but you need to know Zo is approx 400 ohms.

Thanks for the info -- I entered 390 ohms.

bob
k5qwg