On 11/29/2014 10:09 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 9:37 AM, rickman wrote:
On 11/29/2014 9:15 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 1:07 AM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle
wrote:

snip

How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers
cannot be used reliably?

Because the manufacturer wants to sell their dimmers and their bulbs.

Use Phillips bulbs and there is no problem

http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/

snip remainder


Then why do all manufacturers say the same thing?

And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?

I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

You are being a bit silly about this. The guy did a *test* which was
clearly pretty thorough, thorough enough that he could detect *and*
record the flickering of the bulbs when dimmed. He pretty clearly
doesn't have a manufacturer bias since the same company had the bulb
that tested as the best and another which tested as the worst in the group.

Unless the guy has a reputation for faking such tests, why would you
doubt his work? Ignoring valid test data and preferring the opinion of
manufacturers who have a clear stake in the game just seems odd.

Do you deny that the tests show at least one brand and model LED bulb
works perfectly well with a legacy dimmer?


The guy is not an engineer - and AFAICT, has no engineering experience
at all. And I don't trust ANY tests performed by untrained personnel.

And all it shows is that ONE bulb worked properly with ONE dimmer. It
doesn't say how LONG it worked, for instance.

Did you actually *look* at the info?

--

Rick

Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 1:09 AM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:

snip

"No, unlike incandescent bulbs that work with almost any dimmer, LED and
CFL bulbs perform differently depending on the dimmer you install. You
will need to select a dimmer designed specifically for dimmable LED/CFL
bulbs."

Not if you use Phillips bulbs.

http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/

snip remainder



And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?

I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

Of course you won't believe it, but Philips (one l, a Dutch company)
know how to design lighting systems.

On 11/29/2014 10:14 AM, Rob wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 1:09 AM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:

snip

"No, unlike incandescent bulbs that work with almost any dimmer, LED and
CFL bulbs perform differently depending on the dimmer you install. You
will need to select a dimmer designed specifically for dimmable LED/CFL
bulbs."

Not if you use Phillips bulbs.

http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/

snip remainder



And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?

I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

Of course you won't believe it, but Philips (one l, a Dutch company)
know how to design lighting systems.


I never said they didn't. But that doesn't mean their LED bulbs work
with legacy dimmers.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 11/29/2014 10:12 AM, rickman wrote:
On 11/29/2014 10:09 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 9:37 AM, rickman wrote:
On 11/29/2014 9:15 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 1:07 AM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle
wrote:

snip

How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers
cannot be used reliably?

Because the manufacturer wants to sell their dimmers and their bulbs.

Use Phillips bulbs and there is no problem

http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/

snip remainder


Then why do all manufacturers say the same thing?

And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?

I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

You are being a bit silly about this. The guy did a *test* which was
clearly pretty thorough, thorough enough that he could detect *and*
record the flickering of the bulbs when dimmed. He pretty clearly
doesn't have a manufacturer bias since the same company had the bulb
that tested as the best and another which tested as the worst in the
group.

Unless the guy has a reputation for faking such tests, why would you
doubt his work? Ignoring valid test data and preferring the opinion of
manufacturers who have a clear stake in the game just seems odd.

Do you deny that the tests show at least one brand and model LED bulb
works perfectly well with a legacy dimmer?


The guy is not an engineer - and AFAICT, has no engineering experience
at all. And I don't trust ANY tests performed by untrained personnel.

And all it shows is that ONE bulb worked properly with ONE dimmer. It
doesn't say how LONG it worked, for instance.

Did you actually *look* at the info?


Yes, I did. And my comment stands.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 11/29/2014 9:47 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 12:12 AM, rickman wrote:
On 11/28/2014 11:50 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 10:51 PM, rickman wrote:
On 11/28/2014 9:34 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 7:05 PM, rickman wrote:
On 11/28/2014 6:16 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 5:24 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle
wrote:
On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black
wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote:

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth
wrote:
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to
remove,
and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.

How many 3 volt valves can you name?

I think that point was that if a regulator was used to drop the
line
voltage to those 3volts, it could handle high voltage input. The
probably
false assumption is that the regulator would be variable from
some
very
high output voltage to some very low output voltage, so one could
use it
for tubes by making that adjustment.

Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the
regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable
regulator,
and that these things are made in the millions, it would be
extremely
silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed
regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some
fixed
number of LED's.


Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED
bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?


For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the
case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's
output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.


Again, it all depends.

And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to
current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a
current regulator with an average current output proportional to the
raw input voltage.


Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing
else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues
aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist
these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty
trivial.


Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some
kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug
maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some
sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.

However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.


And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent
bulb.

You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base
either
of your opinions on. Jim says,

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn
on for
entire half cycles.

Jerry says,

Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED
bulb
has to be designed for it.

Try reading a little...

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles...-magazine.html





Rickman, here's a better page from the manufacturer of dimmers (and one
of the lines we carry):

http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Educatio...LsandLEDs.aspx



Note the paragraph under "Do all LED and CFL light bulbs work with all
dimmers?"

That has even less information than the page I referred you to.


But it is accurate information from a manufacturer.

Your link says nothing about LED lights in general, only the Lutron
devices. As the article I referenced indicated, LEDs can be made to
work with generic phase control dimmers and the several LED bulbs I have
that work prove the point. I especially like Lutron's compatibility
list. They have a wide definition of "compatible"....


Of course. But check any manufacturer of LED dimmers. They all say the
same thing in one way or another.

"Products on this list are considered compatible with the respective
Lutron C·L dimmers. Depending on the quality of the bulb you select,
compatible bulbs may still:
- have less dimming range than an incandescent or halogen bulb
- dim less smoothly than an incandescent or halogen bulb
- flicker or shimmer at certain light levels
- buzz"

LOL. If the combination does any of these things I don't consider that
to be "compatible".


No dimmer manufacturer can control how bulbs are built. Lutron does its
best to specify what will and will not work.

So why are you citing dimmer makers when we are discussing the bulbs?


Because of the claim that any dimmer can be used with LED bulbs. And
depending on the bulbs, they may or may not work with dimmers - even
ones specifically made for LED bulbs.

For instance, there are a some cheap Chinese LED bulbs which claim to be
dimmable - but don't work reliably with ANY dimmer. And when you use
them with a dimmer, they don't last long.


Actually I find Lutron to have some real crap product as well as very
poor customer support. In order to assure I could get compatible dimmer
and lamp, I bought an LED fixture that listed part numbers for
compatible dimmers (tested in conjunction with the dimmer companies) and
bought a compatible Lutron dimmer. The result was they didn't work
properly. Clearly this particular fixture was *not* compatible with
generic dimmers and wasn't even compatible with the specified dimmer.


They have excellent dealer support. And most of their sales is through
dealers like us.

You mean dealers like Home Depot who have zero support other than
letting you return the crap that doesn't work? Like I said, the box was
labeled as being compatible with the "tested" dimmers. It wasn't unless
you define "compatible" (by the Lutron web page) as
- have less dimming range than an incandescent or halogen bulb
- dim less smoothly than an incandescent or halogen bulb
- flicker or shimmer at certain light levels
- buzz"

Obviously Lutron has a very broad definition of "compatible". I would
stop using them as an authority if I were you.


Maybe the local store has no support, but that's not the end of their
support. To become an authorized dealer, our tech people had to go
through a lot of training (common for the better brands). Home Depot
had to do the same thing, but obviously they don't have every employee
in the country trained (nor could they maintain the training).

Good luck trying to find *anyone* in the store with "training" in
dimmers. I did and found no one who could help me pick out compatible
devices.


And yes, "compatible" means they will work - but not necessarily how
*well* they will work. And some bulbs work fine, while some don't -
even when they are the same model from the same manufacturer.

There you go. A bulb or dimmer can be total crap, producing totally
unacceptable operation and that is ok with the maker. But as long as it
was certified as "compatible" by an engineer, that's ok with you too.


They have been a very reliable manufacturer for us in both the
residential and commercial sectors for a number of years. When properly
installed, we have had almost zero problems with their products. And we
install a lot every year.

But you don't like Lutron's comments? Here's another manufacturer:

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Secti...minisite=10251

This page doesn't say anything like what you are saying.


Or this one (a non-engineering sales pitch, but saying the same thing)

http://www.legrand.us/resources-and-...l-dimmers.aspx
(download the article)

This one isn't even about the bulbs, it is only about dimmers. You seem
to be looking at this from the wrong perspective. Let me recap...

You...
Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED
bulbs?

Me...
Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED
bulb
has to be designed for it.

No, you can't use just any dimmer with just any bulb. But as the
article from the possibly "non-engineer" there are bulbs that will work
with any dimmer which is what I said.


I contacted both Lutron and the company who made the fixture. I don't
recall the response of the LED fixture company but Lutron simply
recommended another dimmer with no mention of why they were on the
compatibility list and yet were not compatible.


Probably because they are not high on consumer sales. Dealers like us
get excellent support from them (and most manufacturers). I can even
call and talk directly with an engineer.

Do me a favor and ask them why they consider flickering, less dimming
range, unsmooth dimming and buzzing as being acceptable in compatible
products.


Compatible does not mean it will work perfectly. True in ANY business.

Lol! That is the road to returns and is a line of BS.


Their main consumer support is through the dealer you purchased it from.
If you got it from the internet or similar, you got what you paid for.
If you got it from an authorized Lutron dealer, they should support
you.

Sure, I expect I can *still* return it to Home Depot. But the point is
Lutron and the lamp company has a crappy definition of "compatible"
which means I won't be buying any more Lutron dimming products. By
their own definition they work like crap.

Meanwhile I have LED bulbs that do work properly with conventional
dimmers. Also, you have not mentioned anything about how LED bulbs are
design to work with *any* dimmers. The page I referenced provided a
design that will provide a properly functioning LED bulb truly
compatible with legacy dimmers.


No, their definition is the same as that in any market. Compatible does
not mean things will work perfectly.

As to the article - you mean the one titled "LED lighting must work with
legacy dimming technologies"? The one with an obvious agenda?

Really? What is the agenda?


Did you even read the article? How about Table 1 where it states that
phase dimmers have problems with LED lighting? In fact, some of the
same problems I have already mentioned?

No one ever said all LEDs will work with all dimmers. You keep
recycling the same arguments.


And BTW - what are the author's credentials? Is he an engineer who
knows what he's talking about, or just some blogger who's read a few
articles? The lack of a short bio is noticeable.

How many engineers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Ok, I guess I'm done with this conversation. Enjoy.

--

Rick

On 11/29/2014 10:12 AM, Rob wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 4:30 AM, Rob wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

"is it dimmable" refers to the use of a phase-cut TRIAC dimmer in combination
with a retrofit LED bulb designed to run on mains power.


No, some bulbs are not dimmable, period. Some are. None work reliably
with triac dimmer controls.

Maybe not in your world, but here we can buy TRIAC dimmers and LED bulbs
that work together.


Maybe you THINK they work. But there are a number of problems (some of
which I have identified in this thread) which show they don't work well
together.

You probably have a 13.8V stabilized DC supply in your shack.
Can you use it as a variable-voltage supply by putting a dimmer in
front of it?


Completely unrelated. The LED electronics and the power supply work
completely differently.

Maybe your power supply, but mine is a switchmode supply and it works
completely the same as any other. It is regulated for voltage, not for
current, but that is another matter.


Completely unrelated. The LED electronics and the power supply work
completely differently.

The first difference you are ignoring is your power supply is constant
voltage. A LED power supply is constant current. They work on entirely
different principles.


There are already dimmers made for LEDs which work well. And there are
commercial systems which use low voltage to drive the LEDs. But these
are all proprietary; there are no standards for LED lighting yet.
Eventually, maybe standards will be developed for the commercial market,
but right now there is zero push for such standards.

It's going to be years (if ever) before such standards are created for
the residential market. There are too many reasons to stick with 117V
wiring.

LED is about current, not about voltage. A lighting system can put many
LEDs in series and use a higher voltage. What is important is that the
supply circuit gets separated from the bulb, so that it can be made dimmable,
externally controlled, etc and the LED gets DC current supply.


Sure they can be connected in series. But that has it's own problems;
you can only go so far. And yes, the LED gets a DC supply - but it's
the generation of the constant current source which causes the problems.

Don't believe me, though. Look at some of the references I have posted
- all written by EEs intimately familiar with the technology.

The mains here is 230V AC. There even are proposals to change that
into 325V DC or even 500V DC. Not accepted proposals with a set date,
but still. DC supply is more efficient for the home these days, now
everthing uses switchmode supplies, it can transport more power
with the same amount of copper and the same class of insulation.


That's fine for you. Personally, I don't expect it to get very far.
But it's not going to happen here.

Back in the 1800's, there was a current war. Nikola Tesla (supported by
George Westinghouse) proposed using AC. Thomas Edison proposed using
DC. Both had their advantages and disadvantages. AC won, obviously.
And now, it is so ingrained into our economy there is no chance of changing.

Although the utilities are building some long distance DC transmission
lines.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 11/29/2014 10:26 AM, rickman wrote:
On 11/29/2014 9:47 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 12:12 AM, rickman wrote:
On 11/28/2014 11:50 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 10:51 PM, rickman wrote:
On 11/28/2014 9:34 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 7:05 PM, rickman wrote:
On 11/28/2014 6:16 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 5:24 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle
wrote:
On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black
wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote:

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth
wrote:
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator
suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to
remove,
and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.

How many 3 volt valves can you name?

I think that point was that if a regulator was used to drop the
line
voltage to those 3volts, it could handle high voltage
input. The
probably
false assumption is that the regulator would be variable from
some
very
high output voltage to some very low output voltage, so one
could
use it
for tubes by making that adjustment.

Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product,
and the
regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable
regulator,
and that these things are made in the millions, it would be
extremely
silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a
fixed
regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some
fixed
number of LED's.


Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED
bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by
changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?


For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the
case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's
output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator
who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.


Again, it all depends.

And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is
proportional to
current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a
current regulator with an average current output proportional
to the
raw input voltage.


Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED
bulbs?

A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing
else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation
issues
aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage
input.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist
these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty
trivial.


Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without
some
kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug
maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some
sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.

However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where
does the
raw high voltage come from.


And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in
the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of
current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent
bulb.

You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base
either
of your opinions on. Jim says,

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing
the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn
on for
entire half cycles.

Jerry says,

Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED
bulbs?

Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED
bulb
has to be designed for it.

Try reading a little...

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles...-magazine.html






Rickman, here's a better page from the manufacturer of dimmers
(and one
of the lines we carry):

http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Educatio...LsandLEDs.aspx




Note the paragraph under "Do all LED and CFL light bulbs work with
all
dimmers?"

That has even less information than the page I referred you to.


But it is accurate information from a manufacturer.

Your link says nothing about LED lights in general, only the Lutron
devices. As the article I referenced indicated, LEDs can be made to
work with generic phase control dimmers and the several LED bulbs I
have
that work prove the point. I especially like Lutron's compatibility
list. They have a wide definition of "compatible"....


Of course. But check any manufacturer of LED dimmers. They all say
the
same thing in one way or another.

"Products on this list are considered compatible with the respective
Lutron C·L dimmers. Depending on the quality of the bulb you select,
compatible bulbs may still:
- have less dimming range than an incandescent or halogen bulb
- dim less smoothly than an incandescent or halogen bulb
- flicker or shimmer at certain light levels
- buzz"

LOL. If the combination does any of these things I don't consider
that
to be "compatible".


No dimmer manufacturer can control how bulbs are built. Lutron does
its
best to specify what will and will not work.

So why are you citing dimmer makers when we are discussing the bulbs?


Because of the claim that any dimmer can be used with LED bulbs. And
depending on the bulbs, they may or may not work with dimmers - even
ones specifically made for LED bulbs.

For instance, there are a some cheap Chinese LED bulbs which claim to be
dimmable - but don't work reliably with ANY dimmer. And when you use
them with a dimmer, they don't last long.


Actually I find Lutron to have some real crap product as well as very
poor customer support. In order to assure I could get compatible
dimmer
and lamp, I bought an LED fixture that listed part numbers for
compatible dimmers (tested in conjunction with the dimmer
companies) and
bought a compatible Lutron dimmer. The result was they didn't work
properly. Clearly this particular fixture was *not* compatible with
generic dimmers and wasn't even compatible with the specified dimmer.


They have excellent dealer support. And most of their sales is through
dealers like us.

You mean dealers like Home Depot who have zero support other than
letting you return the crap that doesn't work? Like I said, the box was
labeled as being compatible with the "tested" dimmers. It wasn't unless
you define "compatible" (by the Lutron web page) as
- have less dimming range than an incandescent or halogen bulb
- dim less smoothly than an incandescent or halogen bulb
- flicker or shimmer at certain light levels
- buzz"

Obviously Lutron has a very broad definition of "compatible". I would
stop using them as an authority if I were you.


Maybe the local store has no support, but that's not the end of their
support. To become an authorized dealer, our tech people had to go
through a lot of training (common for the better brands). Home Depot
had to do the same thing, but obviously they don't have every employee
in the country trained (nor could they maintain the training).

Good luck trying to find *anyone* in the store with "training" in
dimmers. I did and found no one who could help me pick out compatible
devices.


And yes, "compatible" means they will work - but not necessarily how
*well* they will work. And some bulbs work fine, while some don't -
even when they are the same model from the same manufacturer.

There you go. A bulb or dimmer can be total crap, producing totally
unacceptable operation and that is ok with the maker. But as long as it
was certified as "compatible" by an engineer, that's ok with you too.


They have been a very reliable manufacturer for us in both the
residential and commercial sectors for a number of years. When properly
installed, we have had almost zero problems with their products. And we
install a lot every year.

But you don't like Lutron's comments? Here's another manufacturer:

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Secti...minisite=10251

This page doesn't say anything like what you are saying.


Or this one (a non-engineering sales pitch, but saying the same thing)

http://www.legrand.us/resources-and-...l-dimmers.aspx

(download the article)

This one isn't even about the bulbs, it is only about dimmers. You seem
to be looking at this from the wrong perspective. Let me recap...

You...
Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED
bulbs?

Me...
Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED
bulb
has to be designed for it.

No, you can't use just any dimmer with just any bulb. But as the
article from the possibly "non-engineer" there are bulbs that will work
with any dimmer which is what I said.


I contacted both Lutron and the company who made the fixture. I don't
recall the response of the LED fixture company but Lutron simply
recommended another dimmer with no mention of why they were on the
compatibility list and yet were not compatible.


Probably because they are not high on consumer sales. Dealers like us
get excellent support from them (and most manufacturers). I can even
call and talk directly with an engineer.

Do me a favor and ask them why they consider flickering, less dimming
range, unsmooth dimming and buzzing as being acceptable in compatible
products.


Compatible does not mean it will work perfectly. True in ANY business.

Lol! That is the road to returns and is a line of BS.


Their main consumer support is through the dealer you purchased it
from.
If you got it from the internet or similar, you got what you paid
for.
If you got it from an authorized Lutron dealer, they should support
you.

Sure, I expect I can *still* return it to Home Depot. But the point is
Lutron and the lamp company has a crappy definition of "compatible"
which means I won't be buying any more Lutron dimming products. By
their own definition they work like crap.

Meanwhile I have LED bulbs that do work properly with conventional
dimmers. Also, you have not mentioned anything about how LED bulbs are
design to work with *any* dimmers. The page I referenced provided a
design that will provide a properly functioning LED bulb truly
compatible with legacy dimmers.


No, their definition is the same as that in any market. Compatible does
not mean things will work perfectly.

As to the article - you mean the one titled "LED lighting must work with
legacy dimming technologies"? The one with an obvious agenda?

Really? What is the agenda?


Just what it says. "LED lighting MUST work...". And anything less is
unacceptable.


Did you even read the article? How about Table 1 where it states that
phase dimmers have problems with LED lighting? In fact, some of the
same problems I have already mentioned?

No one ever said all LEDs will work with all dimmers. You keep
recycling the same arguments.


It didn't even say all dimmable LED bulbs work with all legacy dimmers.


And BTW - what are the author's credentials? Is he an engineer who
knows what he's talking about, or just some blogger who's read a few
articles? The lack of a short bio is noticeable.

How many engineers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Ok, I guess I'm done with this conversation. Enjoy.


Obviously you would rather believe an article by someone with no
demonstrable technical knowledge to engineers who design and have an
intimate knowledge of the technology.

"My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Completely unrelated. The LED electronics and the power supply work
completely differently.

Maybe your power supply, but mine is a switchmode supply and it works
completely the same as any other. It is regulated for voltage, not for
current, but that is another matter.


Completely unrelated. The LED electronics and the power supply work
completely differently.

The first difference you are ignoring is your power supply is constant
voltage. A LED power supply is constant current. They work on entirely
different principles.

Constant voltage and constant current are not different principles.
Linear and switchmode are.

Sure they can be connected in series. But that has it's own problems;
you can only go so far. And yes, the LED gets a DC supply - but it's
the generation of the constant current source which causes the problems.

What problems?

Don't believe me, though. Look at some of the references I have posted
- all written by EEs intimately familiar with the technology.

When someone points you at a manufacturer that gets things right you
question the truth...

The mains here is 230V AC. There even are proposals to change that
into 325V DC or even 500V DC. Not accepted proposals with a set date,
but still. DC supply is more efficient for the home these days, now
everthing uses switchmode supplies, it can transport more power
with the same amount of copper and the same class of insulation.


That's fine for you. Personally, I don't expect it to get very far.
But it's not going to happen here.

Of course not. You are living in the USA. There is no innovation
in the USA. I would never expect something to be changed.

Back in the 1800's, there was a current war. Nikola Tesla (supported by
George Westinghouse) proposed using AC. Thomas Edison proposed using
DC. Both had their advantages and disadvantages. AC won, obviously.

At that time, AC had more advantages. Now, DC has.

And now, it is so ingrained into our economy there is no chance of changing.

The economy here works a bit differently. When new systems have
advantages, they get deployed. Especially when they consume less energy.
You know, we have (only) digital TV here. For nearly 10 years no.
Something that will take years in the USA.

Although the utilities are building some long distance DC transmission
lines.

There you are!
A DC transmission line between here and Norway has been operating for
several years. Windenergy parks at sea are also feeding DC.
But at home it is even more of an advantage. E.g. to charge your
electrical car you want as much power as possible, and at DC the same
copper wire with the same insulation and safety concerns can transport
2-4 times more power.

On 11/29/2014 10:41 AM, Rob wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Completely unrelated. The LED electronics and the power supply work
completely differently.

Maybe your power supply, but mine is a switchmode supply and it works
completely the same as any other. It is regulated for voltage, not for
current, but that is another matter.


Completely unrelated. The LED electronics and the power supply work
completely differently.

The first difference you are ignoring is your power supply is constant
voltage. A LED power supply is constant current. They work on entirely
different principles.

Constant voltage and constant current are not different principles.
Linear and switchmode are.


No, they operate on entirely different principles.

Sure they can be connected in series. But that has it's own problems;
you can only go so far. And yes, the LED gets a DC supply - but it's
the generation of the constant current source which causes the problems.

What problems?


Please read back through my posts here. I'm not going to repeat myself.

Don't believe me, though. Look at some of the references I have posted
- all written by EEs intimately familiar with the technology.

When someone points you at a manufacturer that gets things right you
question the truth...


What did they get right? Physics doesn't change based on the manufacturer.

If you must know, Phillips is not considered one of the top brands in
the U.S.

The mains here is 230V AC. There even are proposals to change that
into 325V DC or even 500V DC. Not accepted proposals with a set date,
but still. DC supply is more efficient for the home these days, now
everthing uses switchmode supplies, it can transport more power
with the same amount of copper and the same class of insulation.


That's fine for you. Personally, I don't expect it to get very far.
But it's not going to happen here.

Of course not. You are living in the USA. There is no innovation
in the USA. I would never expect something to be changed.


Oh no? ROFLMAO! Who do you think first developed LED bulbs? Here's a
hint: it wasn't Phillips.

Back in the 1800's, there was a current war. Nikola Tesla (supported by
George Westinghouse) proposed using AC. Thomas Edison proposed using
DC. Both had their advantages and disadvantages. AC won, obviously.

At that time, AC had more advantages. Now, DC has.


No, at the time neither had an advantage. You need to read up on the
"war" between Tesla and Edison.

And now, it is so ingrained into our economy there is no chance of changing.

The economy here works a bit differently. When new systems have
advantages, they get deployed. Especially when they consume less energy.
You know, we have (only) digital TV here. For nearly 10 years no.
Something that will take years in the USA.


We have only digital TV here, also. Been that way for over 5 years.

Although the utilities are building some long distance DC transmission
lines.

There you are!
A DC transmission line between here and Norway has been operating for
several years. Windenergy parks at sea are also feeding DC.
But at home it is even more of an advantage. E.g. to charge your
electrical car you want as much power as possible, and at DC the same
copper wire with the same insulation and safety concerns can transport
2-4 times more power.


We've had them for years, also. I don't know when they started, but
utilities are still building them. Probably have been for 20-30 years,
as semiconductors able to handle the power and voltage became available.

We also have a lot of wind turbines - both at see and on land.


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle

==================

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 1:09 AM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:

snip

"No, unlike incandescent bulbs that work with almost any dimmer, LED and
CFL bulbs perform differently depending on the dimmer you install. You
will need to select a dimmer designed specifically for dimmable LED/CFL
bulbs."

Not if you use Phillips bulbs.

http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/

snip remainder



And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?

I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

Yes, you will believe the engineers from the company whose bulbs and
dimmers you sell; you kind of have to.

There are lots of INDEPENDANT reviews out there that do NOT hold the
same views you do.



--
Jim Pennino