In article , Biz WD=?ISO-8859-1?B?2A==?=HCO
writes:

One comment to Mikes Post - Many WW2 Comm RCVRS didn't have Phasing or XTAL
Filters - Radio OPs were trained and expected to copy CW perfectly even with
a bunch of signals blaring out of the headphones. Just par for the course
back then. Myself - I can copy 30 WPM CW with 5 other stations nearby.

You train your brain to focus on just one tone and filter everything else
out. That ol noodle is a remarkable filter. I often listen to a Halli S-38D
on the 40 meter CW band at night and that's what 6 or 8 kc wide??

ISTR that as a Novice, I could do some of that, and some of my fellow Novice
ops bragged about it too. Once they upgraded from a Heath AR-3 to SX-99, maybe
their skill got rusty :-)

Of course most of us can copy "air phone" at a crowded party, picking a
friend's converstaion out of equally loud voices in the room. Not that it's
easy, but it works.
73, Mike K.

Oscar loves trash, but hates Spam! Delete him to reply to me.

In article , Biz WD=?ISO-8859-1?B?2A==?=HCO
writes:

(2) Britan could not directly go after subs and ships. To do so would tip
the Germans that the code was broken and force them to change their wheels
on a daily (or hourly) basis. Remember it took 3 weeks (and I suspect much
more) to break each code. So even though they had a stolen Enigma and the
tools to break the code - it would have been of little use if the code was
changed daily.

It's a pretty well known story (maybe even true) that the Brits knew the German
air raid was coming to Coventry (by breaking the code and/or watching the
bombers on radar), several hours in advance, but deliberately did not warn any
civil defense or firefighters in Coventry, for fear of tipping the Krauts that
we were reading their mail.

So apparently Churchill was willing to sacrifce Brit lives, and not jsut US
sailors, to hide the code breaking. --Mike K.

Oscar loves trash, but hates Spam! Delete him to reply to me.

Mike Knudsen wrote:


It's a pretty well known story (maybe even true) that the Brits knew the German
air raid was coming to Coventry (by breaking the code and/or watching the
bombers on radar), several hours in advance, but deliberately did not warn any
civil defense or firefighters in Coventry, for fear of tipping the Krauts that
we were reading their mail.

So apparently Churchill was willing to sacrifce Brit lives, and not jsut US
sailors, to hide the code breaking. --Mike K.

Thats the difference in looking at the fact after versus before the
occurrence.
One of the techniques used by both sides was to send literally hundreds
of fake messages along with the 'good' one. This kept the decoding gals
busy and still left some doubt about which one(s) were the real messages.
If they had copied mail that included every city in Britain as a
target...and later one in particular got bombed...its quite easy to say
that they knew ahead of time and here's the evidence to prove it.

-BM

"Biz WDØHCO" wrote in message
...


Shipboard receiver installations varied widely depending on how prosperous
the shipping company was. Some were every bit as equal to any land
installation while others were little more than (as an old timer once told
me) a Marconi turd with a cat whisker stuck in it.

About training - well first - many Merchant R OPs's joined the Armed
Forces
right off - so that left those with age, foot or vision problems or
retired
OPs to man the radio shacks. Most of these men were trained by RCA
Worldwide
Wireless or Marconi. ALL had many years of practical experience on the
high
seas.

Navy on the other hand had a problem - ships were being built at a
fantastic
rate and only recently trained "8 Week Wonders" Radio Ops who never had
been
out to sea to man the shacks. The Navy had to sprinkle experienced Ham
Radio
and Merchant Marines as lead OPs throughout the fleet to keep things
moving
till the green horns got up to speed. As it was, there were a number of
comical foulups related to mis-communications.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yep - Ive heard of stories of passing Convoy ships firing their deck guns
on
German Life boats - a big Geneva treaty NO NO. Also heard about s broken
down U-boat with the whole crew lined up outside on top waving white
flags.
Passing ship turned toward it, increased speed and rammed it and kept on
going. I think it was safe to say there was some serious hatred there.

I'll also mention code breaking in the anti-sub war.

hmmm ok - where should I start?

We are of course talking about the British breaking the codes being sent
and
received by German Enigma Code machines. Brits are proud of saying their
collection of eccentric mathematics wizards and puzzle solving misfits
broke
the code in something like 3 or 4 weeks.

What is glossed over is that the front line German Radio OPs were somewhat
lazy and seldom if ever changed the code wheels on the machine. The German
high command believed their code machine unbreakable but even so still
changed the code wheels on a weekly basis for high level comms.

They believed even if front line comms could be broken - they were of
little
strategic value to the enemy. Of course we now know, if you broken low
level
comms you can follow the messages up the chain and stand a good chance of
breaking that code if you know what is in the message being sent.

The Bits did this and now had access to most of the Germany Armed Forces
comms.

Now what to do with it?

What now follows is my own speculation - much of the story still remains
classified to this day. I can only go back and look at the historical
facts
and come up with some fairly logical deductions -

..in other words - I'm guessing...

(1) Clearly - Churchill could have told the Americans early on - He choose
not to do this until much later.


I've read Churchill wanted as much American involvement as possible,
particularly after Dunkirk. He was dealing with Roosevelt through Sir
William Stephenson. Churchill and Stephenson decided to risk sharing their
best intelligence information in order to show Roosevelt that the Great
Britian still had a chance. Without the shared intelligence, the deal for
the old destroyers and other arms almost certainly would never have gone
through.



(2) Britan could not directly go after subs and ships. To do so would tip
the Germans that the code was broken and force them to change their wheels
on a daily (or hourly) basis. Remember it took 3 weeks (and I suspect much
more) to break each code. So even though they had a stolen Enigma and the
tools to break the code - it would have been of little use if the code was
changed daily.

You're right. The codes couldn't have been timely enough to locate the
subs. Radio location could, but the destroyers and bombers would almost be
too late to find anything. The value was, I suppose, more stratigic than
tactical (as they say on cable TV)


(3) America at the time was isolationist. The Brits saw what a single Jap
Attack at Pearl Harbor had done. Almost overnight, America was at war -
with
Japan. Most Americans wanted to fight the Japs only - they had no beef
with
Germany.

(4) The Lend-Lease convoys were US Merchant Ships carrying U.S. War
Material
protected by the U.S. Navy Ships manned by US Sailors. The Brits knew the
exact locations of German subs out to sink the convoys but kept quiet. The
loss of some shipping and American lives would keep the United States
focused and involved with the war in Europe.

The story is that Roosevelt knew. I can't be sure the story is absolutely
true, but it seems credible. I doubt the exact location of the German subs
could have been determined in a useful way until aircraft had good radar.


(5) As you can imagine - the Americans were livid when finally told. Not
so
much for the loss of American life but for the fact they were so well
played
by Churchill.


I don't think Roosevelt was played by Churchill. They were pretty much in
agreement about defending England, and defeating Hitler.


(6) This and the massive defeat ("Heroic Retreat" as the Brits tell it) at
Dunkirk were probably the two major factors in selecting an American as
Supreme Allied Commander.

It would have also have been tougher to maintin a "Hitler First" program in
the US, if the Allies were headed up by a Brit.



Of course all this is just idle speculation...

That's what keeps it fun!


I think the code breaking used in the anti-sub effort came much later when
it was certain America would join the British War effort.

It's my understanding that the code breaking was most useful in the air war
of the Battle of Britain.


But we may never really know. -B


Yeah, I like spy stories as much as anyone, but I can't often tell the BS
from the truth or even what is being left out.

Frank Dresser

Mike Knudsen wrote:

It's a pretty well known story (maybe even true) that the Brits knew the German
air raid was coming to Coventry (by breaking the code and/or watching the
bombers on radar), several hours in advance, but deliberately did not warn any
civil defense or firefighters in Coventry, for fear of tipping the Krauts that
we were reading their mail.

So apparently Churchill was willing to sacrifce Brit lives, and not jsut US
sailors, to hide the code breaking. --Mike K.

It may be "a pretty well known story", but it may also be an urban
legend". There are indications each way, and I seem to recall having
seen it exposed as an urban legend.

--
"We have captured lightning and used it to teach sand how to think."

In message , Mike Andrews
writes
Mike Knudsen wrote:

It's a pretty well known story (maybe even true) that the Brits knew
the German
air raid was coming to Coventry (by breaking the code and/or watching the
bombers on radar), several hours in advance, but deliberately did not
warn any
civil defense or firefighters in Coventry, for fear of tipping the
Krauts that
we were reading their mail.

So apparently Churchill was willing to sacrifce Brit lives, and not jsut US
sailors, to hide the code breaking. --Mike K.

It may be "a pretty well known story", but it may also be an urban
legend". There are indications each way, and I seem to recall having
seen it exposed as an urban legend.

It is an urban legend. RV Jones explained that a mistake was made in the
measurement of the modulation frequency on the beams (1500 c/s instead
of 2000 c/s IIRC). So that the modulation frequency on the jammers was
set incorrectly. The airborne equipment used very sharp filters so that
the jammers were not audible. So Coventry was bombed.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

In message , Biz WDØHCO
writes

Snip

I'll also mention code breaking in the anti-sub war.

hmmm ok - where should I start?

We are of course talking about the British breaking the codes being sent and
received by German Enigma Code machines. Brits are proud of saying their
collection of eccentric mathematics wizards and puzzle solving misfits broke
the code in something like 3 or 4 weeks.

I haven't. Some messages were never broken. Some were read immediately.

What is glossed over is that the front line German Radio OPs were somewhat
lazy and seldom if ever changed the code wheels on the machine. The German
high command believed their code machine unbreakable but even so still
changed the code wheels on a weekly basis for high level comms.

Any decent book on code-breaking will relate this point. I've never
known it being 'glossed-over'. Most of the breaking depended on
mistakes, or duplication, or repeats of messages without changing the
wheel positions.

The Luftwaffe was very lax on this point, using the same start position
for several messages.


They believed even if front line comms could be broken - they were of little
strategic value to the enemy. Of course we now know, if you broken low level
comms you can follow the messages up the chain and stand a good chance of
breaking that code if you know what is in the message being sent.

The Bits did this and now had access to most of the Germany Armed Forces
comms.

Now what to do with it?

What now follows is my own speculation - much of the story still remains
classified to this day. I can only go back and look at the historical facts
and come up with some fairly logical deductions -

..in other words - I'm guessing...

(1) Clearly - Churchill could have told the Americans early on - He choose
not to do this until much later.

I haven't got the question so can't comment on this point.

(2) Britan could not directly go after subs and ships. To do so would tip
the Germans that the code was broken and force them to change their wheels
on a daily (or hourly) basis. Remember it took 3 weeks (and I suspect much
more) to break each code. So even though they had a stolen Enigma and the
tools to break the code - it would have been of little use if the code was
changed daily.

The code was changed by the Kreigsmarine daily, sometimes every three
hours.

(3) America at the time was isolationist. The Brits saw what a single Jap
Attack at Pearl Harbor had done. Almost overnight, America was at war - with
Japan. Most Americans wanted to fight the Japs only - they had no beef with
Germany.

(4) The Lend-Lease convoys were US Merchant Ships carrying U.S. War Material
protected by the U.S. Navy Ships manned by US Sailors.

Err... Some were. The US government's policy was even-handed. Pay for it
and collect it. Most convoy ships were European at the start. Only
later, after 11th Dec 41, and when the US started building Liberty ships
in huge quantities, did the ratio change.
The US and Canadian Navy escorted the convoys eastwards to about
half-way when they handed over to the RN.
Before 11th Dec '41 the USN provided some escort vessels, ie 'Reuben
James', which on occassion did engage the U-boats.

The Brits knew the
exact locations of German subs out to sink the convoys but kept quiet.

Rubbish. We wouldn't have lost a single ship if that was so. I can
remember the 9.00 BBC news, each evening, starting "The Admiralty
regrets to announce the loss of the following ships...." then followed a
list of from 2 to 20 ships. It was harrowing.

The
loss of some shipping and American lives would keep the United States
focused and involved with the war in Europe.

Bollox.

(5) As you can imagine - the Americans were livid when finally told. Not so
much for the loss of American life but for the fact they were so well played
by Churchill.

If only.

(6) This and the massive defeat ("Heroic Retreat" as the Brits tell it) at
Dunkirk were probably the two major factors in selecting an American as
Supreme Allied Commander.

Our 'Heroic Defeat' matches your Philipines, I suppose. The RAF lost
200+ fighters defending Dunkirk.


Eisenhower for the invasion and afterwards. Which involved at least 60%
Brit and Commonwealth troops on the first day.


Of course all this is just idle speculation...

You should have put that in capitals , and underlined it.

I think the code breaking used in the anti-sub effort came much later when
it was certain America would join the British War effort.

Do you think we wouldn't have done it to save our own ships?

But we may never really know. -B

We know a lot more than you have written.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell