There is an ARRL Frequency Measurement Test coming up in November and I'd
like to participate.
I'd like to verify my receiving frequency with a frequency counter and
wonder how to best attach that to my TS 830.

Who has done these kinds of measurements and could give advice???

Uwe

Jaggy Taggy wrote:

There is an ARRL Frequency Measurement Test coming up in November and I'd
like to participate.
I'd like to verify my receiving frequency with a frequency counter and
wonder how to best attach that to my TS 830.

Who has done these kinds of measurements and could give advice???

Uwe


About 30 years ago I qualified with my HQ-180A and an LM freq meter.
Didn't need to hook anything together

The problem with a counter and a TS830 is that there are various
oscillators in the 830 that would all need to be summed together to get
into the gnat's hair range. I really don't know how that could be
easily done. I'm thinking old style using an oscillator like the
LM/BC-221 or any good signal generator to beat against the signal and
measuring THAT unit rather than trying to measure the 830.

-Bill

On 10/21/05 11:04 PM, in article ,
"Bill" wrote:

Jaggy Taggy wrote:

There is an ARRL Frequency Measurement Test coming up in November and I'd
like to participate.
I'd like to verify my receiving frequency with a frequency counter and
wonder how to best attach that to my TS 830.

Who has done these kinds of measurements and could give advice???

Uwe


About 30 years ago I qualified with my HQ-180A and an LM freq meter.
Didn't need to hook anything together

The problem with a counter and a TS830 is that there are various
oscillators in the 830 that would all need to be summed together to get
into the gnat's hair range. I really don't know how that could be
easily done. I'm thinking old style using an oscillator like the
LM/BC-221 or any good signal generator to beat against the signal and
measuring THAT unit rather than trying to measure the 830.

-Bill


Bill, so you suggest to beat the signal the ARRL will transmit and then to
calculate the signal frequency by using the published transmission
frequency??

In that case I still would need to get the signal generators signal in my TS
830 to beat with the ARRL signal. I guess I could connect the signal
generator to the antenna input. Do I see this right??

Uwe

In article ,
Jaggy Taggy wrote:

On 10/21/05 11:04 PM, in article ,
"Bill" wrote:

Jaggy Taggy wrote:

There is an ARRL Frequency Measurement Test coming up in November and I'd
like to participate.
I'd like to verify my receiving frequency with a frequency counter and
wonder how to best attach that to my TS 830.

Who has done these kinds of measurements and could give advice???

Uwe


About 30 years ago I qualified with my HQ-180A and an LM freq meter.
Didn't need to hook anything together

The problem with a counter and a TS830 is that there are various
oscillators in the 830 that would all need to be summed together to get
into the gnat's hair range. I really don't know how that could be
easily done. I'm thinking old style using an oscillator like the
LM/BC-221 or any good signal generator to beat against the signal and
measuring THAT unit rather than trying to measure the 830.

-Bill


Bill, so you suggest to beat the signal the ARRL will transmit and then to
calculate the signal frequency by using the published transmission
frequency??

In that case I still would need to get the signal generators signal in my TS
830 to beat with the ARRL signal. I guess I could connect the signal
generator to the antenna input. Do I see this right??

Yes, but you certainly don't want a direct connection to the aerial.

Connect the signal generator output to your counter, preferably using a
"T-piece", so that you can plug a short length of wire into the 'T'
to act as an aerial when you want to do the measurement. Then, let
*everything* warm up for at least half an hour so that the temperatures
stabilise in the equipment to reduce drift. Keep the signal generator
a long way off the target frequency to begin with, then tune the receiver
as accurately to the ARRL signal as you can, lock the receiver dial, and
then tune the signal generator until you get a beat note followed by
zero beat against the ARRL signal. (Turn the receiver BFO off when
doing this, so you only have one beat note) . Read your counter at
that point, and it should give you the exact frequency.

The accuracy of your frequency measurement will depend on the accuracy
and stability of the frequency counter, of course.

Chris.

--
"As a sysadmin, I suppose you're familiar with something called a
'worst-case scenario'?"
"Isn't that what we call, "having a good day for a change"?"
(Rik Steenwinkel and Graham Reed in the monastery)

On 10/22/05 3:23 PM, in article , "Chris
Suslowicz" wrote:

In article ,
Jaggy Taggy wrote:

On 10/21/05 11:04 PM, in article ,
"Bill" wrote:

Jaggy Taggy wrote:

There is an ARRL Frequency Measurement Test coming up in November and I'd
like to participate.
I'd like to verify my receiving frequency with a frequency counter and
wonder how to best attach that to my TS 830.

Who has done these kinds of measurements and could give advice???

Uwe


About 30 years ago I qualified with my HQ-180A and an LM freq meter.
Didn't need to hook anything together

The problem with a counter and a TS830 is that there are various
oscillators in the 830 that would all need to be summed together to get
into the gnat's hair range. I really don't know how that could be
easily done. I'm thinking old style using an oscillator like the
LM/BC-221 or any good signal generator to beat against the signal and
measuring THAT unit rather than trying to measure the 830.

-Bill


Bill, so you suggest to beat the signal the ARRL will transmit and then to
calculate the signal frequency by using the published transmission
frequency??

In that case I still would need to get the signal generators signal in my TS
830 to beat with the ARRL signal. I guess I could connect the signal
generator to the antenna input. Do I see this right??

Yes, but you certainly don't want a direct connection to the aerial.

Connect the signal generator output to your counter, preferably using a
"T-piece", so that you can plug a short length of wire into the 'T'
to act as an aerial when you want to do the measurement. Then, let
*everything* warm up for at least half an hour so that the temperatures
stabilise in the equipment to reduce drift. Keep the signal generator
a long way off the target frequency to begin with, then tune the receiver
as accurately to the ARRL signal as you can, lock the receiver dial, and
then tune the signal generator until you get a beat note followed by
zero beat against the ARRL signal. (Turn the receiver BFO off when
doing this, so you only have one beat note) . Read your counter at
that point, and it should give you the exact frequency.

The accuracy of your frequency measurement will depend on the accuracy
and stability of the frequency counter, of course.

Chris.


Well Chris, thanks for your advice.

The problem starts with tuning my receiver exactly to the frequency under
consideration. I have a IC R75 and I just tried to tune in WWV without
relying on the dial. The R75 has a reversal switch which switches between
side bands. Switching back and forth until both pitches are identical should
put me right on the carrier, or not??
Well, it is not easy if you try to be precise. When I had the best match I
could achieve my dial was off by 15 Hz.

Now the TS 830 does not have such a feature and I wonder how I am supposed
to switch my BFO off. Does switching to TUNE do the trick??
Anyway, it is much harder to do this adjustment with the TS 830 than with
the R 75.

And looking at my old URM25D using my HP5384A frequency counter the error
seems to mount. Even after warm up a slow drift of at least +- 30 Hz seems
to be unavoidable.
Combining all these errors and considering my operators error in zero
beating the signal I should be lucky to get within +- 50 HZ OF the ARRL
frequency. Maybe not too bad considering the equipment and the operator's
experience, but quite an error nevertheless....

Uwe

Jaggy Taggy wrote:


Now the TS 830 does not have such a feature and I wonder how I am supposed
to switch my BFO off.

Does the TS830 have AM mode capability?

And looking at my old URM25D using my HP5384A frequency counter the error
seems to mount. Even after warm up a slow drift of at least +- 30 Hz seems
to be unavoidable.
Combining all these errors and considering my operators error in zero
beating the signal I should be lucky to get within +- 50 HZ OF the ARRL
frequency. Maybe not too bad considering the equipment and the operator's
experience, but quite an error nevertheless....

Make as many measurements as you can and then average your own results,
or find a numerical median of your own results. If you 'know' you've
got a certain amount of drift in your counter or sig gen you can simply
back out that number or a portion of it.

Good luck!

-Bill

Chris Suslowicz ) writes:

Yes, but you certainly don't want a direct connection to the aerial.

Connect the signal generator output to your counter, preferably using a
"T-piece", so that you can plug a short length of wire into the 'T'
to act as an aerial when you want to do the measurement. Then, let
*everything* warm up for at least half an hour so that the temperatures
stabilise in the equipment to reduce drift. Keep the signal generator
a long way off the target frequency to begin with, then tune the receiver
as accurately to the ARRL signal as you can, lock the receiver dial, and
then tune the signal generator until you get a beat note followed by
zero beat against the ARRL signal. (Turn the receiver BFO off when
doing this, so you only have one beat note) . Read your counter at
that point, and it should give you the exact frequency.


Further to Chris's suggestion, Bill, and you probably already know this, but
for anyone who has never done it before, it helps a lot to adjust the
strength of the signal generator output so that it is the same as the
unknown signal. Then, the beat note will be most pronounced and easy to
detect.

I used this method for many years with a fixed output generator and a pot
to ground, taking the signal from the pot's wiper and coupling it through
a small value capacitor to the antenna and receiver input. With care I
could adjust the generator's signal strength to match the unknown signal
and get a very nice beat note. Got a published error of 2 hertz back in
the early 1980s.

.... Martin VE3OAT