PCBs are one of the most dangerous substances ever created. Oil-filled
capacitors containing PCB were made as early as the 1930s. The AR88 was a
wartime set, more likely than consumer radios to contain oil-filled
capacitors.

There is no "safe level" of exposure to PCBs, and they do not break down in
the environment. I would not risk cleaning out the old cans and putting new
capacitors into them. Why not contact your local hazardous waste agency and
find out how you can safely (and legally) dispose of the capacitors?

This web article -- I'm sure you can find many others -- gives some history
about PCBs and their health effects.

http://www.foxriverwatch.com/monsanto2a_pcb_pcbs.html

Just my $0.02.

Phil Nelson

"Bri" wrote in message
...
I noticed some concern as to the possibility (let's not put it any stronger
than that) of PCB's (polychlorinated biphenyls) being used in the oil
filled capacitors of RCA AR88's. I have 2 such sets, one of which is
weeping like a baby. I intend to replace the old capacitors with modern
equivalents inside the old cans. Is it really likely to be PCB fluid? If
so, how to safely drain, dispose and clean up the dripped fluid without
wiping out much of Western Europe (or at least myself).

Bri

Hi Phil.

Thanks for that, you highlight my dilemma well. I don't think many people
realise that PCB's have been around for as long as they have. I only became
aware of the possibility when I came across a query by P Bertini. The
simple tests suggested by AndyB above look promising in this regard.

B



"Phil Nelson" wrote in message
...
PCBs are one of the most dangerous substances ever created. Oil-filled
capacitors containing PCB were made as early as the 1930s. The AR88 was a
wartime set, more likely than consumer radios to contain oil-filled
capacitors.

There is no "safe level" of exposure to PCBs, and they do not break down
in the environment. I would not risk cleaning out the old cans and putting
new capacitors into them. Why not contact your local hazardous waste
agency and find out how you can safely (and legally) dispose of the
capacitors?

This web article -- I'm sure you can find many others -- gives some
history about PCBs and their health effects.

http://www.foxriverwatch.com/monsanto2a_pcb_pcbs.html

Just my $0.02.

Phil Nelson

"Bri" wrote in message
...
I noticed some concern as to the possibility (let's not put it any
stronger than that) of PCB's (polychlorinated biphenyls) being used in the
oil filled capacitors of RCA AR88's. I have 2 such sets, one of which is
weeping like a baby. I intend to replace the old capacitors with modern
equivalents inside the old cans. Is it really likely to be PCB fluid? If
so, how to safely drain, dispose and clean up the dripped fluid without
wiping out much of Western Europe (or at least myself).

Bri

Phil Nelson wrote:
PCBs are one of the most dangerous substances ever created. Oil-filled
capacitors containing PCB were made as early as the 1930s. The AR88 was a
wartime set, more likely than consumer radios to contain oil-filled
capacitors.

There is no "safe level" of exposure to PCBs, and they do not break down in
the environment. I would not risk cleaning out the old cans and putting new
capacitors into them. Why not contact your local hazardous waste agency and
find out how you can safely (and legally) dispose of the capacitors?

This web article -- I'm sure you can find many others -- gives some history
about PCBs and their health effects.

http://www.foxriverwatch.com/monsanto2a_pcb_pcbs.html

It's a very interesting paper, it appears to have been written mostly
to scare, and to hopefully encourage one to become an environmental activist.

However, every single point you mention above about the dangers is counter to
what is actually said in the article: it does biodegrade, it takes fairly
large exposure to cause chloroacne, or liver problems...

Did you actually read the article?

-Chuck

Chuck Harris wrote:
It's a very interesting paper, it appears to have been written mostly
to scare, and to hopefully encourage one to become an environmental activist.

However, every single point you mention above about the dangers is counter to
what is actually said in the article: it does biodegrade, it takes fairly
large exposure to cause chloroacne, or liver problems...

Did you actually read the article?

I am told that the real problem with PCBs is that they degrade into some
very hazardous things when burned. Although, of course, they don't burn
easily, which was the whole point of using them.

I used to wade knee-deep into tanks of the stuff, and slather it all over
transformer windings with bare hands. It turns out this is probably a bad
thing, but I haven't noticed any problems yet.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Bri" wrote in message
...
Hi Phil.

Thanks for that, you highlight my dilemma well. I don't think many people
realise that PCB's have been around for as long as they have. I only
became
aware of the possibility when I came across a query by P Bertini. The
simple tests suggested by AndyB above look promising in this regard.

B


Bri

Check this website by EA5 amateur:

http://www.jvgavila.com/ar88_2.htm

He claimed the capacitors had PCB dielectric, something I've never
been able to confirm. A few other restorers have claimed that the
original metal capacitors were leaky enough to cause AGC and
other sensitivity problems on their AR-88x receivers. I haven't
worked on or restored mine as of yet, so I am neutral on the whole
issue.

Pete

I tackled PCB, Dioxin and Furan toxicity in some depth a while back
(bear in mind there are orders of magnitude difference of alleged
toxicity between these closely related and often co-present
compounds/contaminants, and again in the different sub-types of the
compounds, the levels of which can only be assessed with specialist
testing) and what I found was that industry will tell you they are
low-grade toxicity and cite a ton of scientific study and
environmentalists will tell you they are the ultimate toxin and cite an
equal amount of scientific study.

I certainly wouldn't disregard material just because its blatantly out
to scaremonger. What about all the anti-tobacco ads telling you smoking
gives you cancer - are they spinning BS just because they're out to
scare you?

Acute poisoning (enough to cause chloracne for example) means taking on
a *gargantuan* dose of these types of compounds compared with what is
reckoned to be a 'tolerable daily intake' (TDI), and the levels that
cause concern to professional health bodies like the World Health
Organisation are vanishingly small (single figure picograms) and it is
carcinogenic, teratogenic (birth defects) and immune disorders far down
the line (even in future generations who inherit damaged genes) that
they are worried about, not acute exposure toxicity.

Its difficult getting a decent professional opinion by looking at
industry or environmentalist sourced material, as in my experience they
are equally biased, but I think it is reasonable to accept the view of
a body like the W.H.O, that class Dioxin like PCB's as potentially very
dangerous substances (and known carcinogens) and impose such strict
limits on human exposure.

My area of experience was with dealing with teensy-weensy amounts of
this stuff. The difference in amounts from a waste incinerator (and
diffused) per year and what is *potentially* contained in a few
capacitors is like comparing a hand-grenade to a small nuke in terms of
concentration and yield. They could contain millions of maximum
permissible lifetime doses.

PCB's and the like do biodegrade but can take years to do so, all the
while hanging around in your fatty tissues, doing whatever it is they
are doing (or not doing, depending on your affiliations).

Even taking the middle ground between the industry view and
environmentalist view, the *possible* risks would put me off touching
the stuff or taking any risks with it at all, but thats my personal
opinion.

If it's such harmless stuff, why has it been banned in the US since 1977?
http://www.epa.gov/opptintr/pcb/

To return to his original point -- why would you want to take a risk, if you
can easily and cheaply avoid it?

If you're concerned about authentic appearance, there were postwar metal
bathtub style capacitors which are actually paper caps, not oil filled. I
found some in my Scott Labs 800B, for instance. Get a junker 800B chassis
and scavenge the bathtub cases to restuff, if they look right and that suits
you. You can also buy new or NOS style bathtub caps in a variety of values
and case styles.

Alternatively, you can puncture the old case and drink what's inside, for
all I care. It's a free country :-)

Go in peace,

Phil Nelson

I used to wade knee-deep into tanks of the stuff, and slather it all over
transformer windings with bare hands. It turns out this is probably a bad
thing, but I haven't noticed any problems yet.

I smoked cigarettes for over 20 years, then quit. It turns out this is
probably a bad thing, but I haven't noticed any problems yet . . . .

Best wishes,

Phil "famous last words" Nelson

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

I used to wade knee-deep into tanks of the stuff, and slather it all over
transformer windings with bare hands. It turns out this is probably a bad
thing, but I haven't noticed any problems yet.
--scott

That's okay, Scott -- We have

73s

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Lawrence Statton - m s/aba/c/g
Computer software consists of only two components: ones and
zeros, in roughly equal proportions. All that is required is to
sort them into the correct order.

Well, something of a hornet's nest here - pleased you are all enjoying the
debate.

My 'conclusion' thus far:

1) No one actually knows if the capacitors in question contain PCB's
2) If they do, they may or may not be hazardous even in small amounts

3) Therefo

i) I will test the fluid as described in posts
ii) I will treat them as hazardous material in the meantime


Now where did I put my rubber suit?

Bri





"Phil Nelson" wrote in message
...
If it's such harmless stuff, why has it been banned in the US since 1977?
http://www.epa.gov/opptintr/pcb/

To return to his original point -- why would you want to take a risk, if
you can easily and cheaply avoid it?

If you're concerned about authentic appearance, there were postwar metal
bathtub style capacitors which are actually paper caps, not oil filled. I
found some in my Scott Labs 800B, for instance. Get a junker 800B chassis
and scavenge the bathtub cases to restuff, if they look right and that
suits you. You can also buy new or NOS style bathtub caps in a variety of
values and case styles.

Alternatively, you can puncture the old case and drink what's inside, for
all I care. It's a free country :-)

Go in peace,

Phil Nelson