"Paul Burridge" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:30:40 -0800, "Ed Price"
wrote:

Designing and building a product to provide many years of use, and then
capable of being repaired without access to unique components and/or
exotic
service equipment, is a concept so rare as to be thought a scam.

Can anyone recommend a decent commercial vector network analyser and
spectrum analyser that one can repair oneself if necessary and
hopefully keep them up and running for ever?
--

"I expect history will be kind to me, since I intend to write it."
-
Winston Churchill


For the spectrum analyzer part, the best a hobbyist can usually afford is an
HP-141, with a few plug-ins (IIRC, they offered a total of 6, collect the
whole set!). And you will need the HP manuals (some of which are available
free from the US Army LOGSA site). And you will need some other basic and
decent lab gear (scope, counter, DMM, sig gens) to do the job right.

Sorry, but I can't comment on any Network Analyzers.

Ed
wb6wsn

Ed Price wrote:

We were talking about repair and service equipment, not consumer items. A
consumer item is expected to have a short life-cycle, and repairability is
often not a concern.

If you cannot see the relationship, then you need to stretch a bit.

Everything in electronics, test equipment especially has grown in
complexity and performance, as it has been reduced in size. Some of the
reductions are there to make it possible to fit more test equipment in a
given space, and some are there because of necessities of the new
technology (eg. microwave speeds and low power consumption are better
done with tiny sized components.)


I never saw "multi-six-foot-rack analyzers"; the oldest & biggest I can
recall were Singer FIM analyzers, which were about 24" wide by 30" tall and
deep, and took four guys to move them (and the plug-in RF heads were a
one-man lift!). OTOH, everything inside was reachable and easily repairable.

Was your life, as a technician that is, made better or worse when that
same 4 man lift SA was reduced to one that you could carry yourself with
one hand, while carrying your 1G scope with the other?

How about performance? Did it help you to have the bandwidth limit of
your old 4 man lift SA rise from 1GHz to 300GHz? How about your 30MHz
scope that is now 1GHz? Did you notice that the prices went DOWN?

How about the heat generation? Have you ever worked in a lab that had
no effective air conditioning, and also had a herd of Tek 500 series
scopes whirring away?.. in the middle of the summer? I have, and I am
quite happy not to do it anymore. We saw temperatures as high as 120F
at times. No windows, one door, lots of fans. Turn off the equipment,
and the AC did quite fine.

And finally, how about the space savings? Does it help you or hurt you
to recapture that floor space the old SA, and scope, and signal
generator used?

Tiny little custom component ridden hard to service test equipment made
it possible to move away from that kind of scene.


If that 100 MHz scope can be built to have a reasonable cost to lifetime
ratio, then it could be considered a consumer item, and a non-repairable
investment. But to me, if I have to pay $10k or more for a piece of test
equipment, it had better last quite a few years and allow me to do
re-calibration and even moderately severe repair.

All of the $10K+ stuff I have seen from HP or Tek would easily meet your
needs. Calibration? You cannot be serious. Most of this stuff is so
finely calibrated that it would be beyond the capabilities of anything
but an expert calibration lab to accomplish the task. Just having the
standards necessary takes a whole lab... and a whole budget. I know
this because I tried to set up a NIST traceable cal lab for my business,
and eventually concluded that for me to do that, cal would have to
become my exclusive business. I still have all the standards and
equipment, but no time to put them to use... No money to keep them in
cert with NIST. It is FAR cheaper to send the stuff out and get it
calibrated.

The "consumer grade" goodies in the test equipment market don't
really need more than a simple calibration checking. I cannot tell
you the last time my little Fluke DVM needed recalibration... Because it
is 15 years old, and it has NEVER needed recalibration. Has something
to do with the little fidgety custom components that are inside it.
Same goes for my Tek 2465 scope.

-Chuck

"Ed Price" wrote in message news:WFoub.16633$cX1.14167@fed1read02...
"gw" wrote in message
om...
"Ed Price" wrote in message
news:nO_tb.9428$cX1.8536@fed1read02...
"gw" wrote in message
om...
Roy Lewallen wrote in message
...
Thanks to Ed for the good advice.

I've got an HP 140T. As far as I know, the only difference between
it
and the 141T is that the CRT in mine is a conventional one with
long-persistence phosphor rather than a storage tube. It uses the
same
plug-in units as the 141T. I find it to be very usable, and don't
really
miss storage capability at all. I think the tube is a lot more
trouble-free than a storage type unit.

So I recommend that you don't turn down a 140T if you come across
one --
and you might even have a better chance of getting a unit with a
working
display than with a 141T.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Ed Price wrote:

[Lots of good advice]


well it is amazing i think how some of these units retain their resale
value even though the companies that made them do not service them or
back them......man who was the brainiac that thought about how to
implement this scam?

Designing and building a product to provide many years of use, and then
capable of being repaired without access to unique components and/or
exotic
service equipment, is a concept so rare as to be thought a scam.

Ed
wb6wsn

well ed what are your thoughts on a hp 8590? bueno o no bueno?

A very good analyzer series, but generally still priced out of the hobbyist
market. Reasonably portable, and ruggedly built. Performance is generally a
bit lower than the 856x series, but still very respectable. Much more useful
than a hobbyist-affordable 141 analyzer, and easier and more versatile than
an older 8569 analyzer. Unless your needs are exotic, the 859x series will
be a good industrial choice.

Ed
wb6wsn


well some guy who has a company that i guess is in the business of
buying refurbing and selling electronic equipment has one on ebay for
about $2100.00. should i cross my fingers and go for it? he takes
credit cards. he says it is working very well, it looks real good
according the pics he has of it and it has a fresh calibration.

Dave Hall wrote:
Ed Price wrote:

"Paul Burridge" wrote in message
. ..

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:30:40 -0800, "Ed Price"
wrote:


Designing and building a product to provide many years of use, and then
capable of being repaired without access to unique components and/or

exotic

service equipment, is a concept so rare as to be thought a scam.

Can anyone recommend a decent commercial vector network analyser and
spectrum analyser that one can repair oneself if necessary and
hopefully keep them up and running for ever?
--

"I expect history will be kind to me, since I intend to write it."
-

Winston Churchill

For the spectrum analyzer part, the best a hobbyist can usually afford is an
HP-141, with a few plug-ins (IIRC, they offered a total of 6, collect the
whole set!). And you will need the HP manuals (some of which are available
free from the US Army LOGSA site). And you will need some other basic and
decent lab gear (scope, counter, DMM, sig gens) to do the job right.

Sorry, but I can't comment on any Network Analyzers.


This might be a bit off the exact topic but I have a friend who has a HP
141 and the horozontal display scan has shrunk and folded over on top of
itself. Having never worked on test equipment, I could only offer
generic possibilities, (Voltages, deflection transistors, caps?). Is
there are common part failure that can cause this to the best of your
knowlege?

Thanks,
Dave


Look at the 2W resistors and the output transistors in the output
deflection stages for a start.

Andrew

"gw" wrote in message
om...
"Ed Price" wrote in message
news:WFoub.16633$cX1.14167@fed1read02...
"gw" wrote in message

SNIP


well ed what are your thoughts on a hp 8590? bueno o no bueno?

A very good analyzer series, but generally still priced out of the
hobbyist
market. Reasonably portable, and ruggedly built. Performance is
generally a
bit lower than the 856x series, but still very respectable. Much more
useful
than a hobbyist-affordable 141 analyzer, and easier and more versatile
than
an older 8569 analyzer. Unless your needs are exotic, the 859x series
will
be a good industrial choice.

Ed
wb6wsn


well some guy who has a company that i guess is in the business of
buying refurbing and selling electronic equipment has one on ebay for
about $2100.00. should i cross my fingers and go for it? he takes
credit cards. he says it is working very well, it looks real good
according the pics he has of it and it has a fresh calibration.


I can't assess risk for you, but $2k sounds like a fair price for a good
condition 8590.

Ed
wb6wsn

"Chuck Harris" wrote in message
...
Ed Price wrote:

We were talking about repair and service equipment, not consumer items.
A
consumer item is expected to have a short life-cycle, and repairability
is
often not a concern.

If you cannot see the relationship, then you need to stretch a bit.

Everything in electronics, test equipment especially has grown in
complexity and performance, as it has been reduced in size.

SNIP

The "consumer grade" goodies in the test equipment market don't
really need more than a simple calibration checking. I cannot tell
you the last time my little Fluke DVM needed recalibration... Because it
is 15 years old, and it has NEVER needed recalibration. Has something
to do with the little fidgety custom components that are inside it.
Same goes for my Tek 2465 scope.

-Chuck


You keep mixing the needs of an enterprise with those of a hobbyist. True,
many of the people on the groups of this thread are electronics
professionals who also have an electronics hobby interest. My comments have
all been aimed toward the hobbyist. If you have a 2465B scope (one of the
finest analog scopes I have ever used), then you are one extremely wealthy
hobbyist, and the economic constraints most everyone else lives by must not
apply to you.

A hobbyist doesn't send anything "out" for calibration; they rely on the
ability to cross-check their various gear with everything else in their
collection. Sometimes, they might be able to compare one of their items with
a professionally calibrated and traceable item. Or maybe they buy a new DMM,
that's rated for 0.1% (whatever) and then proceed to adjust the rest of
their stuff into agreement with that one new item.

My point is that old equipment is repairable. Your point is that newer
equipment is chock full of value, more reliable, and is easier to lift.
There's no contradiction between these positions.

BTW, your DVM always "needs" calibration, even if it is still within
tolerance every time it's checked. Nice to know that it's stable, but
nothing lives forever. As for "fidgety little components", should you ever
apply a few watts of RF to the input of your 2465, you'll find it very
difficult to repair by yourself, and the Tek bill for the job could very
well approach the replacement cost. If the same had happened to a 465, then
you would just be replacing a few small, precision resistors.

Ed
wb6wsn

Ed Price wrote:

"Paul Burridge" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:30:40 -0800, "Ed Price"
wrote:

Designing and building a product to provide many years of use, and then
capable of being repaired without access to unique components and/or
exotic
service equipment, is a concept so rare as to be thought a scam.

Can anyone recommend a decent commercial vector network analyser and
spectrum analyser that one can repair oneself if necessary and
hopefully keep them up and running for ever?
--

"I expect history will be kind to me, since I intend to write it."
-
Winston Churchill

For the spectrum analyzer part, the best a hobbyist can usually afford is an
HP-141, with a few plug-ins (IIRC, they offered a total of 6, collect the
whole set!). And you will need the HP manuals (some of which are available
free from the US Army LOGSA site). And you will need some other basic and
decent lab gear (scope, counter, DMM, sig gens) to do the job right.

Sorry, but I can't comment on any Network Analyzers.

This might be a bit off the exact topic but I have a friend who has a HP
141 and the horozontal display scan has shrunk and folded over on top of
itself. Having never worked on test equipment, I could only offer
generic possibilities, (Voltages, deflection transistors, caps?). Is
there are common part failure that can cause this to the best of your
knowlege?

Thanks,
Dave

Hi Ed,

What I am NOT doing is trying to mix the needs of the hobbiest with
the realities of companies that build for professionals. You are
lamenting the fact that the newer gear is hard for hobbiests to
maintain. That argument will go soft on HP or Tektronix, or any of
several dozen other equipment manufacturers that make equipment for
professionals.

The simple fact that your abilities at repair stop at thru hole,
technology, doesn't mean that devices that use hybrids, and surface
mount technology are not repairable. The hybrid front end on the
2465 is quite repairable, but requires a little optical help, just
like watch repair, an 1800's tecnology. From what I have heard, most
of the parts in the hybrid are standard off the shelf surface mount
faire... I have no direct knowledge of whether this is actually true.
I did find it to be the case with the output hybrid in HP's 86222A
sweeper plugin.

There would be no more point in taking your busted 2465 to Tek for
repair than there would be for your 465, they won't work on either.

Checked is not the same as calibration. The case doesn't even get
opened for "checked".

And to your assertion that I am a rich hobbiest, I am not an electronics
hobbiest at all! I am a self-employed electrical engineer, and I use
the test equipment I own to earn a living. Sadly, for me electronics
died as a hobby when I started getting paid to do it. The happy part
is I truly enjoy my work!

-Chuck, WA3UQV

(I will admit that VERY obsolete electronics retains a hobby sort of
thrill for me... Old tube gear, and old minicomputers.)

Ed Price wrote:
You keep mixing the needs of an enterprise with those of a hobbyist. True,
many of the people on the groups of this thread are electronics
professionals who also have an electronics hobby interest. My comments have
all been aimed toward the hobbyist. If you have a 2465B scope (one of the
finest analog scopes I have ever used), then you are one extremely wealthy
hobbyist, and the economic constraints most everyone else lives by must not
apply to you.

A hobbyist doesn't send anything "out" for calibration; they rely on the
ability to cross-check their various gear with everything else in their
collection. Sometimes, they might be able to compare one of their items with
a professionally calibrated and traceable item. Or maybe they buy a new DMM,
that's rated for 0.1% (whatever) and then proceed to adjust the rest of
their stuff into agreement with that one new item.

My point is that old equipment is repairable. Your point is that newer
equipment is chock full of value, more reliable, and is easier to lift.
There's no contradiction between these positions.

BTW, your DVM always "needs" calibration, even if it is still within
tolerance every time it's checked. Nice to know that it's stable, but
nothing lives forever. As for "fidgety little components", should you ever
apply a few watts of RF to the input of your 2465, you'll find it very
difficult to repair by yourself, and the Tek bill for the job could very
well approach the replacement cost. If the same had happened to a 465, then
you would just be replacing a few small, precision resistors.

Ed
wb6wsn

Andrew Tweddle wrote:

Dave Hall wrote:
Ed Price wrote:

"Paul Burridge" wrote in message
. ..

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:30:40 -0800, "Ed Price"
wrote:


Designing and building a product to provide many years of use, and then
capable of being repaired without access to unique components and/or

exotic

service equipment, is a concept so rare as to be thought a scam.

Can anyone recommend a decent commercial vector network analyser and
spectrum analyser that one can repair oneself if necessary and
hopefully keep them up and running for ever?
--

"I expect history will be kind to me, since I intend to write it."
-

Winston Churchill

For the spectrum analyzer part, the best a hobbyist can usually afford is an
HP-141, with a few plug-ins (IIRC, they offered a total of 6, collect the
whole set!). And you will need the HP manuals (some of which are available
free from the US Army LOGSA site). And you will need some other basic and
decent lab gear (scope, counter, DMM, sig gens) to do the job right.

Sorry, but I can't comment on any Network Analyzers.


This might be a bit off the exact topic but I have a friend who has a HP
141 and the horozontal display scan has shrunk and folded over on top of
itself. Having never worked on test equipment, I could only offer
generic possibilities, (Voltages, deflection transistors, caps?). Is
there are common part failure that can cause this to the best of your
knowlege?

Thanks,
Dave


Look at the 2W resistors and the output transistors in the output
deflection stages for a start.

Andrew


Thank you!

Dave

Chuck Harris wrote in message ...
Hi Ed,

What I am NOT doing is trying to mix the needs of the hobbiest with
the realities of companies that build for professionals. You are
lamenting the fact that the newer gear is hard for hobbiests to
maintain. That argument will go soft on HP or Tektronix, or any of
several dozen other equipment manufacturers that make equipment for
professionals.

The simple fact that your abilities at repair stop at thru hole,
technology, doesn't mean that devices that use hybrids, and surface
mount technology are not repairable. The hybrid front end on the
2465 is quite repairable, but requires a little optical help, just
like watch repair, an 1800's tecnology. From what I have heard, most
of the parts in the hybrid are standard off the shelf surface mount
faire... I have no direct knowledge of whether this is actually true.
I did find it to be the case with the output hybrid in HP's 86222A
sweeper plugin.

There would be no more point in taking your busted 2465 to Tek for
repair than there would be for your 465, they won't work on either.

Checked is not the same as calibration. The case doesn't even get
opened for "checked".

And to your assertion that I am a rich hobbiest, I am not an electronics
hobbiest at all! I am a self-employed electrical engineer, and I use
the test equipment I own to earn a living. Sadly, for me electronics
died as a hobby when I started getting paid to do it. The happy part
is I truly enjoy my work!

-Chuck, WA3UQV

(I will admit that VERY obsolete electronics retains a hobby sort of
thrill for me... Old tube gear, and old minicomputers.)

Ed Price wrote:
You keep mixing the needs of an enterprise with those of a hobbyist. True,
many of the people on the groups of this thread are electronics
professionals who also have an electronics hobby interest. My comments have
all been aimed toward the hobbyist. If you have a 2465B scope (one of the
finest analog scopes I have ever used), then you are one extremely wealthy
hobbyist, and the economic constraints most everyone else lives by must not
apply to you.

A hobbyist doesn't send anything "out" for calibration; they rely on the
ability to cross-check their various gear with everything else in their
collection. Sometimes, they might be able to compare one of their items with
a professionally calibrated and traceable item. Or maybe they buy a new DMM,
that's rated for 0.1% (whatever) and then proceed to adjust the rest of
their stuff into agreement with that one new item.

My point is that old equipment is repairable. Your point is that newer
equipment is chock full of value, more reliable, and is easier to lift.
There's no contradiction between these positions.

BTW, your DVM always "needs" calibration, even if it is still within
tolerance every time it's checked. Nice to know that it's stable, but
nothing lives forever. As for "fidgety little components", should you ever
apply a few watts of RF to the input of your 2465, you'll find it very
difficult to repair by yourself, and the Tek bill for the job could very
well approach the replacement cost. If the same had happened to a 465, then
you would just be replacing a few small, precision resistors.

Ed
wb6wsn


does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?