Lancer wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:52:30 -0500, Vinnie S.
wrote:


On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:56:30 GMT, "U Know Who" wrote:


"Lancer" wrote in message
news:dhcnv0h9f7k8qtlq1fjbrn0ef8t35mojgm@2355323 778...

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:35:18 -0500, Vinnie S.
wrote:


On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:23:53 GMT, SideBand wrote:



The PVC condiut is up. I ran a conduit so I can run the coax right to
the
basement, from the attic. I will make a run tomorrow to get coax and
supplies.
The Firestik arrived.

Also, I roughly measured the distance to the tree where I want to put a
permanent antenna. The distance is huge, about 275 feet of total coax.
I figured
I can use LMR-400DB (direct burial). I estimate about 2 dB loss at that
distance. How much power loss is that on a HR-2510, using a Imax-2000
with a GP
kit, assuming a good SWR? I am not running power. Will that antenna
offset that
loss by itself?I really don't have a choice. It's not going on the
house.
Besides, the damn house is too low anyway. I can get way higher on the
tree.

Vinnie S.

Vin:

Your loss will actually fall somewhere between 1.89 and 2dB.

2 db equates to roughly 23% power loss, assuming 1:1 SWR at the antenna.
Since 1:1 isn't easily attained (you can't get it with a resonant dipole
or a 1/4 wave whip without some sort of feed point matching, and then
you lose some radiation efficiency), you can assume you're going to get
some additional feed line (coax) losses (heating, mostly) because of
the mismatch at the antenna. For that run I would highly suggest
staying away from coax and see if you can find some 200 ohm twinlead.
Output coax from the radio to the outside to a 4:1 balun to the twinlead
to a 4:1 balun (in reverse), to about 20 feet of coax to the antenna.
Losses will be MUCH lower than with coax.

If I have the HR-2510 at 10 Watts DK, I am still putting out about 7.5
watts. If
I turn up the DK to about 20 watts, I can still transmit about 15.5 watts.
I
guess that is not bad.

I guess the point is I can still get at least the power of a standard CB
with an
antenna directly overhead.


The other option would be 450 ohm twinlead (ladderline) and a 9:1 balun
at both ends. Ladderline is running about $0.19 +/- a foot, depending on
where you're getting it. The cost for the baluns and the ladderline WILL
be less than the run of LMR400.


The caveat here will be that you will need to keep the ladderline well
away from ALL metal.. within about a foot of the ladderline.

This will be a major problem. I have all my plumbing well within a foot,
across
the entire length of the house. All where I would bring the ladder line
into the
house. I cannot move the entry point without some serious digging and
entering

from the front of the house. There are numerous obstacles like the

driveway and
sidewalk. I will have to look into the 200 ohm twin lead.


For that long of a run, I would personally run a pair of 9:1 baluns and
the 450 ohm ladderline. The cost and the losses will be lowest there.

The reason for the 25' of coax at the antenna end is to keep the
ladderline from being unbalanced by the antenna.

Estimated losses for the 9:1's and 450 ohm... .6 db (and that's at the
highest), depending on the quality of the baluns. Less than 5% power
loss, and not quite so much effect due to poor SWR at the end.



Your dipole should see about a 1.3:1 - 1.5:1 SWR across the CB band. If
it's possible to make a "V" antenna in the branches (inverted or not)
the SWR could be lower, and you could definitely see some improvements
over a vertical dipole.


In the attic, I am using a 6 foot Firestik. It is the highest I can go up
there.
It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet. I am using 8 pieces
of 9
foot wires as a ground plane. Luckily, I have electricians in the family.
This
should work OK for now?

Vinnie S.

Your firestick is not an electrical 5/8 wave, the only thing 5.8 wave
about the firestick is the length of wire the wind on the antenna.

Lancer, does the term "electrical" not indicate the length of wire? He did
not say physical.



Here is my quote:

"It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet."

Here is the Firestik website.

http://www.firestik.com/CatalogFrame.htm

3. Some "experts" may "claim" 5/8 wave mobile antennas are not possible because
they would need to be 23 feet high. They are wrong! Physical length and ground
wave performance are not the same. If you ever hear someone make that claim, ask
them how a handheld CB can have a 1/4 wave antenna 8 inches long and mobile 1/4
wave antennas can be anywhere from 12-60 inches long in spite of the fact that a
physical 1/4 wave is 108 inches.

Vinnie S.


LOL! Looks like the same e-mail that firestick sent to me when I told
them they didn't have a 6 foot 5/8 wave antenna.

A 5/8 wave antenna a feedpoint impedance of about
150 - j600 ohms.

Now if you think that will match your CB, hey more power to you.
I have this bridge for sale... you know the rest...

You have a 6 foot antenna that is 1/4 wave electrical length..

They are good antennas, but they are not a 5/8 wave antenna...


That depends on where you place the loading coils, how many turns of X
gage wire at Y pitch in Z linear space on a form of W diameter.

If there's 22.556 feet of wire on the 6 foot stick, then it's 5/8 wave,
electrically, on 11M. How it's matched to the 50 ohm coax (not the
radio) depends on where the turns are, etc, as stated above.

Oh, and a 1/4 wave antenna doesn't match to 50 ohms either... It's
closer to 32 ohms (therefore the 1.5:1 match on a 1/4 whip).

FYI

-SSB

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:46:59 GMT, SideBand wrote:

Lancer wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:52:30 -0500, Vinnie S.
wrote:


On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:56:30 GMT, "U Know Who" wrote:


"Lancer" wrote in message
news:dhcnv0h9f7k8qtlq1fjbrn0ef8t35mojgm@235532 3778...

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:35:18 -0500, Vinnie S.
wrote:


On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:23:53 GMT, SideBand wrote:



The PVC condiut is up. I ran a conduit so I can run the coax right to
the
basement, from the attic. I will make a run tomorrow to get coax and
supplies.
The Firestik arrived.

Also, I roughly measured the distance to the tree where I want to put a
permanent antenna. The distance is huge, about 275 feet of total coax.
I figured
I can use LMR-400DB (direct burial). I estimate about 2 dB loss at that
distance. How much power loss is that on a HR-2510, using a Imax-2000
with a GP
kit, assuming a good SWR? I am not running power. Will that antenna
offset that
loss by itself?I really don't have a choice. It's not going on the
house.
Besides, the damn house is too low anyway. I can get way higher on the
tree.

Vinnie S.

Vin:

Your loss will actually fall somewhere between 1.89 and 2dB.

2 db equates to roughly 23% power loss, assuming 1:1 SWR at the antenna.
Since 1:1 isn't easily attained (you can't get it with a resonant dipole
or a 1/4 wave whip without some sort of feed point matching, and then
you lose some radiation efficiency), you can assume you're going to get
some additional feed line (coax) losses (heating, mostly) because of
the mismatch at the antenna. For that run I would highly suggest
staying away from coax and see if you can find some 200 ohm twinlead.
Output coax from the radio to the outside to a 4:1 balun to the twinlead
to a 4:1 balun (in reverse), to about 20 feet of coax to the antenna.
Losses will be MUCH lower than with coax.

If I have the HR-2510 at 10 Watts DK, I am still putting out about 7.5
watts. If
I turn up the DK to about 20 watts, I can still transmit about 15.5 watts.
I
guess that is not bad.

I guess the point is I can still get at least the power of a standard CB
with an
antenna directly overhead.


The other option would be 450 ohm twinlead (ladderline) and a 9:1 balun
at both ends. Ladderline is running about $0.19 +/- a foot, depending on
where you're getting it. The cost for the baluns and the ladderline WILL
be less than the run of LMR400.


The caveat here will be that you will need to keep the ladderline well
away from ALL metal.. within about a foot of the ladderline.

This will be a major problem. I have all my plumbing well within a foot,
across
the entire length of the house. All where I would bring the ladder line
into the
house. I cannot move the entry point without some serious digging and
entering

from the front of the house. There are numerous obstacles like the

driveway and
sidewalk. I will have to look into the 200 ohm twin lead.


For that long of a run, I would personally run a pair of 9:1 baluns and
the 450 ohm ladderline. The cost and the losses will be lowest there.

The reason for the 25' of coax at the antenna end is to keep the
ladderline from being unbalanced by the antenna.

Estimated losses for the 9:1's and 450 ohm... .6 db (and that's at the
highest), depending on the quality of the baluns. Less than 5% power
loss, and not quite so much effect due to poor SWR at the end.



Your dipole should see about a 1.3:1 - 1.5:1 SWR across the CB band. If
it's possible to make a "V" antenna in the branches (inverted or not)
the SWR could be lower, and you could definitely see some improvements
over a vertical dipole.


In the attic, I am using a 6 foot Firestik. It is the highest I can go up
there.
It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet. I am using 8 pieces
of 9
foot wires as a ground plane. Luckily, I have electricians in the family.
This
should work OK for now?

Vinnie S.

Your firestick is not an electrical 5/8 wave, the only thing 5.8 wave
about the firestick is the length of wire the wind on the antenna.

Lancer, does the term "electrical" not indicate the length of wire? He did
not say physical.



Here is my quote:

"It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet."

Here is the Firestik website.

http://www.firestik.com/CatalogFrame.htm

3. Some "experts" may "claim" 5/8 wave mobile antennas are not possible because
they would need to be 23 feet high. They are wrong! Physical length and ground
wave performance are not the same. If you ever hear someone make that claim, ask
them how a handheld CB can have a 1/4 wave antenna 8 inches long and mobile 1/4
wave antennas can be anywhere from 12-60 inches long in spite of the fact that a
physical 1/4 wave is 108 inches.

Vinnie S.


LOL! Looks like the same e-mail that firestick sent to me when I told
them they didn't have a 6 foot 5/8 wave antenna.

A 5/8 wave antenna a feedpoint impedance of about
150 - j600 ohms.

Now if you think that will match your CB, hey more power to you.
I have this bridge for sale... you know the rest...

You have a 6 foot antenna that is 1/4 wave electrical length..

They are good antennas, but they are not a 5/8 wave antenna...


That depends on where you place the loading coils, how many turns of X
gage wire at Y pitch in Z linear space on a form of W diameter.

If there's 22.556 feet of wire on the 6 foot stick, then it's 5/8 wave,
electrically, on 11M. How it's matched to the 50 ohm coax (not the
radio) depends on where the turns are, etc, as stated above.

No, its not an electrical 5/8 wave. A 5 foot antenna has about 8 ohms
-322j. Add a series inductor (firesticks 5/8 wave of wire) of 2 ohms
+322j. You now have a 10 ohm j0. You don't change the electrical
length, just cancel the reactance.

There little trick of adding more wire so that they may claim to have
a 5/8 wave antenna actually make the antenna less efficient.
They end up using more wire than a convential coil would use.
It does NOT make the element longer.

Oh, and a 1/4 wave antenna doesn't match to 50 ohms either... It's
closer to 32 ohms (therefore the 1.5:1 match on a 1/4 whip).

What do you call a decent match? 1.5 to 1 isn't?
A true 5/8 wave antenna will have an SWR of about 32 to 1.


FYI

-SSB

From: (Steveo)
jim wrote:
Steveo wrote:
Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand
luke)
the movie had an excellant view of the woman washing the car hehehe

Sweet Lucille.

Sweet Lucy was a dancer....

From: pam
(itoldyouiamnotiamnotgeorge)
Steveo wrote in
:
Hey we are supposed to get snow this week... is yours all gone?
-
(We still have quite a bit on the ground, it hasn't gone above freezing
in a while up here.)

Same here this snow will be with us for a

while, we got 3" +/- overnight


Perhaps Punxsutawney Phil won't see his shadow this year. You can then
exit the cave and enjoy something other than artificial light. It may
even put an end to your winter depression.
On another note, a friend of mine sold all his stuff this weekend after
selling his home and purchasing a condo. He gave me a KLV amp that needs
a new cord. Do you still need some help to get heard down here?
According to Mason, you sure do.

(I AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:
From: (Steveo)
jim wrote:
Steveo wrote:
Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand
luke)
the movie had an excellant view of the woman washing the car hehehe

Sweet Lucille.

Sweet Lucy was a dancer....

George Kennedy gave her that nic in the movie.

On 01 Feb 2005 15:33:36 GMT, Steveo wrote:

(I AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:
From: (Steveo)
jim wrote:
Steveo wrote:
Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand
luke)
the movie had an excellant view of the woman washing the car hehehe

Sweet Lucille.

Sweet Lucy was a dancer....

George Kennedy gave her that nic in the movie.

Dang Steve, good memory...

Lancer wrote:
On 01 Feb 2005 15:33:36 GMT, Steveo wrote:

(I AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:
From: (Steveo)
jim wrote:
Steveo wrote:
Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand
luke)
the movie had an excellant view of the woman washing the car hehehe

Sweet Lucille.

Sweet Lucy was a dancer....

George Kennedy gave her that nic in the movie.

Dang Steve, good memory...

Had some help..it was on again a week or so ago, Lancer.

On 01 Feb 2005 17:43:27 GMT, Steveo wrote:

Lancer wrote:
On 01 Feb 2005 15:33:36 GMT, Steveo wrote:

(I AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:
From: (Steveo)
jim wrote:
Steveo wrote:
Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand
luke)
the movie had an excellant view of the woman washing the car hehehe

Sweet Lucille.

Sweet Lucy was a dancer....

George Kennedy gave her that nic in the movie.

Dang Steve, good memory...

Had some help..it was on again a week or so ago, Lancer.

I was think about ordering it from blockbuster after you guys started
talking about it..

Lancer wrote:
On 01 Feb 2005 17:43:27 GMT, Steveo wrote:

Lancer wrote:
On 01 Feb 2005 15:33:36 GMT, Steveo wrote:

(I AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:
From: (Steveo)
jim wrote:
Steveo wrote:
Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat
over-stated antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'.
($-cool hand luke)
the movie had an excellant view of the woman washing the car hehehe

Sweet Lucille.

Sweet Lucy was a dancer....

George Kennedy gave her that nic in the movie.

Dang Steve, good memory...

Had some help..it was on again a week or so ago, Lancer.

I was think about ordering it from blockbuster after you guys started
talking about it..

Might as well get The Hustler too while you're at it..get your Paul Newman
fix. Great flix.