On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:45:50 -0800, Paul Johnson
wrote:

Dave Hall wrote:

Most car speedometers are not so accurate that a 1 MPH difference is
all that hard to believe. Just putting one size larger tires on your
car can make that difference.

Well, you're supposed to get your instruments recalibrated after changing
tire size.

Yes, you probably should. But periodic speedometer calibration is not
on the list of "maintenance" items in the owner's manuals, nor is it
required as a part of (At least in my state) annual inspection. I'm
not even sure if anyone (other than the dealer) can even perform such
a service. It's clearly not something they advertise.


But differences as much as 5 MPH can happen depending on tire
pressure and road conditions...I've yet to see a speedometer read the right
speed driving on Oregon's notoriously rutted freeways in the rain (probably
because you're forced to hydroplane along the lane, which is why the locals
*will* get aggressive towards tailgaters, though the Californians usually
don't get it until they slam into a wall or the car ahead of them
approaching slower traffic hiding in the road spray of the vehicle ahead
because they're following too close).

People have fought a speeding ticket on this basis and have won.
That's part of the reason why Pa. gives some leeway. Most cops don't
want to have to appear in traffic court when the chances are good the
case could get thrown out. However, it's a lot harder to make a case
for speedometer inaccuracies when you're 10 MPH or more over.

I used to have to deal with police a lot when I was a security officer, and
at one site, the worksite's driveway was a common spot for police to set up
speed traps. The cops don't even bother radar cars until they see someone
moving considerably faster than surrounding traffic, radar the overspeed
vehicle for evidence, and just use the posted speed as something to
estimate a fine from.

That's pretty much what they do here as well. In the state of Pa.,
RADAR is only allowed to be used by the state police (You actually
have to be "certified" to use it). The locals use VASCAR, which is why
there are so many white painted lines across the road (Which also
gives alert drivers a heads-up as to where the speed traps will
usually be).


They seem to radar everyone in areas where there are actual speed limits
when I see a speed trap in a limit zone. Though I never see anybody pulled
over, everybody just slows down for the speed limit and then drops the
hammer down when it goes back to a posted speed a few miles down the road.

That's the whole basis of the "Smokey Reports" that run across the CB.
At first the cops were ****ed at this method of circumventing the law
(As they are with flashing headlights). Now the cops use it to their
advantage. Sometimes they park an unmanned car near a busy highway and
let the CB'ers pass the word, and everyone slows down, which is all
they wanted anyway.

Dave
"Sandbagger"

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:39:56 -0500, Vinnie S.
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:56:05 -0500, Dave Hall wrote:

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:25:37 -0800, Paul Johnson
wrote:

Vinnie S. wrote:

So is driving 56 mph in a 55. But I am sure you have never done that.
Hypocracy at it's finest.

Depends on the state. Most states give you 10% leeway for differences in
speedometer calibration. Oregon doesn't have speed limits in most places,
opting for a less strictly enforced posted speed (difference is the posted
speed signs say SPEED, whereas hard limits say SPEED LIMIT). In either
case, if conditions are bad, you can get a speeding ticket for going slower
than the posted speed (ie, doing 50 in a 60 zone on ice).

In Pa. they are required to give 5 MPH to take care of "Speedometer"
and speed measuring inaccuracies. In addition, just to avoid court
challenges to the precise accuracy of the speed measuring equipment
(Usually VASCAR on non-state patrolled roads, and RADAR on state
police patrolled roads), most of the cops I know tell me that they
unofficially give people 9 MPH over the posted limit before they start
pulling people over. Of course there might be a new hard-assed rookie
who might not be so "kind".......


My brother in law is a cop. It's at the descretion of the cop. Since most often
this is a revenue generating system. The judge and cop are on the same municipal
team. If they want to beat you at 1 mph, they will. The reason they give 10mph
extra, is because everyone goes over the speed limit. They would be up to their
ears in court. So they take the abusers. But I highly doubt it's the
inaccuracies of the equipment or speedometers, because like you said, some
states have zero tolerance. So don't think you can claim the equipment is
inaccurate in one state, and perfect in another. I really think it's just the
descretion of the cop.

Well, in all honesty, it mostly is at the cop's discretion, and they
know that if they want to really bust someone's stones for 1 or 2 MPH
over, they stand a good chance of losing in court. RADAR has been
taken to court before (I remember a somewhat famous one involved
pointing a RADAR gun at a tree and recording over 100 MPH). Traffic
volume, calibration certification, humidity, weather, terrain and a
host of other conditions can affect the accuracy. If you are someone
who does his homework, and presents this in court, most judges will
throw it out for such a small number.

VASCAR since it is a manual timing device, can be even more prone to
inaccuracies.

It's more of an unwritten rule in Pa., that they "give" you 5 MPH, but
all of the cops I know pretty much told me the same thing, and that is
that they don't start pulling people over until they hit 10 MPH over.

I'm sure it's different in other states.

Dave
"Sandbagger"

On 11 Feb 2005 10:19:21 -0800, "No I Am Not Him"
wrote:

Lancer wrote:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:49:12 -0500, Vinnie S.
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:46:42 GMT, Lancer wrote:

http://home.ptd.net/~n3cvj

Dave I am hearing CBers on AM in the 10 meter cw band right now.

Thanks for helping another unlicensed outlaw get his peaked up
tweaked up
illegal rig on the air to join them. Putz.


You're welcome.


Dave,

Tell the moron I am not on 10 meters. I don't stoop to his level.

Vinnie S.

And by that you mean you are just an illegal outlaw on the 11 meter
band? Illegal is illegal isn't it?


So is driving 56 mph in a 55. But I am sure you have never done
that. Hypocracy
at it's finest.

Vinnie S.

Oh, because someone else breaks a "law" you are entiltled to break
any
"Law" you see fit. Grow up Vinnie, quit trying to rationalize your
behavior.

He's being supported in his rationalization by Dave "the outlaw elmer"
Hall.

No, the person who usually equates speeding with freebanding would be
Twistedhed.

Dave
"Sandbagger"

David T. Hall wrote:
In Pa. they are required to give 5 MPH to take

care of "Speedometer" and speed measuring

inaccuracies



I am glad you availed yourself the facts of the matter and reclarified
your bull**** above with:

Well, in all honesty, it mostly is at the cop's

discretion,

It's more of an unwritten rule in Pa., that they

"give" you 5 MPH,


That's a far cry from you claiming it was a "requirement" the Pa. police
*give* you the extra speed of a few miles per hour. Nevertheless, you
illustrate once again you speak of things you know nothing of (the law)
and do not need Frank to make you reverse your earlier position. Since
you realized your error, there is no need to provide you with the Pa.
vehicle code. Flip-flop.

Dave Hall wrote:

Yes, you probably should. But periodic speedometer calibration is not
on the list of "maintenance" items in the owner's manuals, nor is it
required as a part of (At least in my state) annual inspection. I'm
not even sure if anyone (other than the dealer) can even perform such
a service. It's clearly not something they advertise.

Any custom shop or instrument shop can recalibrate your speedometer for
hardly more than pocket change. There's really no excuse for not getting
it done.

That's pretty much what they do here as well. In the state of Pa.,
RADAR is only allowed to be used by the state police (You actually
have to be "certified" to use it). The locals use VASCAR, which is why
there are so many white painted lines across the road (Which also
gives alert drivers a heads-up as to where the speed traps will
usually be).

Lucky you. All departments use laser here. Your detector won't go off
until the cop is actually checking your speed (in which it's too late). My
theory is, if you're driving too fast to see the speed trap, you're driving
too fast to spot a real hazard at that speed. Nothing like having
rush-hour traffic shut down because some jackass driving 60 in dense fog
creams a deer on the freeway.

That's the whole basis of the "Smokey Reports" that run across the CB.

Yeah, I'm usually the one spotting them, I know how they work. 8:O)

Sometimes they park an unmanned car near a busy highway and
let the CB'ers pass the word, and everyone slows down, which is all
they wanted anyway.

You must have an amazingly rich police department if they're able to have
expensive surplus equipment to play games with like that.

--
Paul Johnson

http://ursine.ca/~baloo/

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:38:22 -0800, Paul Johnson
wrote:

Dave Hall wrote:

Yes, you probably should. But periodic speedometer calibration is not
on the list of "maintenance" items in the owner's manuals, nor is it
required as a part of (At least in my state) annual inspection. I'm
not even sure if anyone (other than the dealer) can even perform such
a service. It's clearly not something they advertise.

Any custom shop or instrument shop can recalibrate your speedometer for
hardly more than pocket change. There's really no excuse for not getting
it done.

Just for kicks and grins, when I was at the local auto parts/garage
the other day, I asked in a matter-of-fact way if they did speedo
cal's. The guy looked at me like I grew a second head.

Yes, I imagine there are shops who can handle this. But with the newer
OBD-II ECM system on modern cars, the speedo is often a little more
complex than a simple mechanical pointer. Other than the few specialty
shops and the dealer, I doubt if the typical generic garages that most
people go to can handle it. Most people avoid the dealer once their
warranties expires as they're generally more expensive than the local
garage. It's just not something that anyone talks about.


That's pretty much what they do here as well. In the state of Pa.,
RADAR is only allowed to be used by the state police (You actually
have to be "certified" to use it). The locals use VASCAR, which is why
there are so many white painted lines across the road (Which also
gives alert drivers a heads-up as to where the speed traps will
usually be).

Lucky you. All departments use laser here. Your detector won't go off
until the cop is actually checking your speed (in which it's too late).

Detectors are ineffective against VASCAR as there is no "beam". It's
simple mechanical timing. But the manual nature of this technique is
what opens the door to inaccuracy claims when someone is cited for
going a scant 1 MPH over.

http://www.vascarplus.com/Pages/How_it_works.htm


My
theory is, if you're driving too fast to see the speed trap, you're driving
too fast to spot a real hazard at that speed. Nothing like having
rush-hour traffic shut down because some jackass driving 60 in dense fog
creams a deer on the freeway.

I hear that.

That's the whole basis of the "Smokey Reports" that run across the CB.

Yeah, I'm usually the one spotting them, I know how they work. 8:O)

Sometimes they park an unmanned car near a busy highway and
let the CB'ers pass the word, and everyone slows down, which is all
they wanted anyway.

You must have an amazingly rich police department if they're able to have
expensive surplus equipment to play games with like that.

It all depends on your perspective. If that parked car prevents
accidents, the money saved on emergency response services more than
makes up for the loss of an "active" patrol car.

Dave
"Sandbagger"
http://home.ptd.net/~n3cvj

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:12:10 -0500, (I
AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:

David T. Hall wrote:
In Pa. they are required to give 5 MPH to take

care of "Speedometer" and speed measuring

inaccuracies



I am glad you availed yourself the facts of the matter and reclarified
your bull**** above with:

Well, in all honesty, it mostly is at the cop's

discretion,

It's more of an unwritten rule in Pa., that they

"give" you 5 MPH,


That's a far cry from you claiming it was a "requirement" the Pa. police
*give* you the extra speed of a few miles per hour. Nevertheless, you
illustrate once again you speak of things you know nothing of (the law)
and do not need Frank to make you reverse your earlier position. Since
you realized your error, there is no need to provide you with the Pa.
vehicle code. Flip-flop.

True to form, you show up to pick yet another bowl of nits. It is an
unwritten "requirement" in order to avoid the pain of fighting in
court. The courts have a history of throwing out speed citations for
small amounts, due to the potential for inaccuracies in both the car
speedometer and the speed measuring devices. The success rate for
having these fines "stick" increases greatly when the amounts exceed 5
MPH over.

I've gotten the same story from several different cops who work in
different precincts and the state police.

Dave
"Sandbagger"

From: (Dave=A0Hall)
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:12:10 -0500, (I
AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:
David T. Hall wrote:
In Pa. they are required to give 5 MPH to take

care of "Speedometer" and speed measuring

inaccuracies

I am glad you availed yourself the facts of the matter and reclarified
your bull**** above with:

Well, in all honesty, it mostly is at the cop's

discretion,

It's more of an unwritten rule in Pa., that they

"give" you 5 MPH,

That's a far cry from you claiming it was a "requirement" the Pa. police
*give* you the extra speed of a few miles per hour. Nevertheless, you
illustrate once again you speak of things you know nothing of (the law)
and do not need Frank to make you reverse your earlier position. Since
you realized your error, there is no need to provide you with the Pa.
vehicle code. Flip-flop.

True to form, you


Ahhh,,,,unable to defend the topic, junior does what all unskilled and
uneducated louts do,,,they attack the chatter. Dave, you have always
been a lid and have one hell of a time debating void of emotion. Get
educated, junior.

show up to pick yet another

bowl of nits.

So sorry you feel persecuted again, Junior, yet, illustrating your
self-contradictory claims has a rather unnerving effect on you. Call it
whatever your bruised ego dictates, you talk sideways.


It is an unwritten "requirement" in order to

avoid the pain of fighting in court.


What insight,,,,if it's "unwritten", it doesn't exist as a requirement,
Dave, no matter WHAT you try to explain you "mean" by it.

The courts have a history of throwing out



(snip)

Not relevant. Your claim that is was a requirement degraded to your
current claim it is now a "unwritten" requirement, yet, according to
you, 'friends' of yours are cops who affirmed both your claims. Well,
Dave, you are full of **** again. I posed your question to several LEOs
in a traffic forum and you are wrong. Need the URL? Care to join me
where you can be educated by actual Pa. leos?

speed citations for small amounts, due to the

potential for inaccuracies in both the car

speedometer and the speed measuring

devices.



The success rate for having these

fines "stick" increases greatly when the

amounts exceed 5 MPH over.


And has nothing to do with any "unwritten requirement". If it is
unwritten, it can not be a requirement LEOs must follow.

I've gotten the same story from several

different cops who work in different precincts

and the state police.


LOL,,sure, sure, just like those you claimed agreed with you that roger
beeps are illegal, only you menstruate when asked to actually provide
for such a claim.
No, you haven't been told that by any Pa. cop, and the LEO forum serves
to illustrate your degeneration caused by pathological lies.

David T. Hall Jr

n3cvj

"Sandbagger"

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:12:12 -0500, (I
AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:


True to form, you


Ahhh,,,,unable to defend the topic, junior does what all unskilled and
uneducated louts do,,,they attack the chatter. Dave, you have always
been a lid and have one hell of a time debating void of emotion. Get
educated, junior.

show up to pick yet another

bowl of nits.

So sorry you feel persecuted again, Junior, yet, illustrating your
self-contradictory claims has a rather unnerving effect on you. Call it
whatever your bruised ego dictates, you talk sideways.

Nonetheless, you are picking nits. As you always do.


Not relevant. Your claim that is was a requirement degraded to your
current claim it is now a "unwritten" requirement, yet, according to
you, 'friends' of yours are cops who affirmed both your claims. Well,
Dave, you are full of **** again. I posed your question to several LEOs
in a traffic forum and you are wrong. Need the URL? Care to join me
where you can be educated by actual Pa. leos?

That's interesting. Your adoration with me has made you go through the
trouble of actually seeking out and finding these mythical LEO's, just
to pose this question. Which you did and got a reply back in less than
a day. Wow.

I'm sure this "group" in the same place as that fictitious military
group that you tried to snow Frank with. But sure, go ahead and give
it to me. If nothing else, it'll be good for a laugh or two.


No, you haven't been told that by any Pa. cop, and the LEO forum serves
to illustrate your degeneration caused by pathological lies.


Prove it. Provide the URL.

Prediction: nothing will result.

Dave
"Sandbagger"

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:12:12 -0500, (I
AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:

From: (Dave*Hall)
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:12:10 -0500, (I
AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:
David T. Hall wrote:
In Pa. they are required to give 5 MPH to take

care of "Speedometer" and speed measuring

inaccuracies

I am glad you availed yourself the facts of the matter and reclarified
your bull**** above with:

Well, in all honesty, it mostly is at the cop's

discretion,

It's more of an unwritten rule in Pa., that they

"give" you 5 MPH,

That's a far cry from you claiming it was a "requirement" the Pa. police
*give* you the extra speed of a few miles per hour. Nevertheless, you
illustrate once again you speak of things you know nothing of (the law)
and do not need Frank to make you reverse your earlier position. Since
you realized your error, there is no need to provide you with the Pa.
vehicle code. Flip-flop.

You're right. I shouldn't have deviated from my original stance since,
as it turns out, I was right about it.

See:

http://members.aol.com/StatutesP1/75PA3368.html

Pay particular attention to 3368 (c) number 4., which states:

"No person may be convicted upon evidence obtained through the use of
devices authorized by paragraphs (2) and (3) unless the speed recorded
is six or more miles per hour in excess of the legal speed limit.
Furthermore, no person may be convicted upon evidence obtained through
the use of devices authorized by paragraph (3) in an area where the
legal speed limit is less than 55 miles per hour if the speed recorded
is less than ten miles per hour in excess of the legal speed limit.
This paragraph shall not apply to evidence obtained through the use of
devices authorized by paragraph (3) within a school zone"



So what were you saying about knowing the law?


Dave
"Sandbagger"

True to form, you


Ahhh,,,,unable to defend the topic, junior does what all unskilled and
uneducated louts do,,,they attack the chatter. Dave, you have always
been a lid and have one hell of a time debating void of emotion. Get
educated, junior.

show up to pick yet another

bowl of nits.

So sorry you feel persecuted again, Junior, yet, illustrating your
self-contradictory claims has a rather unnerving effect on you. Call it
whatever your bruised ego dictates, you talk sideways.


It is an unwritten "requirement" in order to

avoid the pain of fighting in court.


What insight,,,,if it's "unwritten", it doesn't exist as a requirement,
Dave, no matter WHAT you try to explain you "mean" by it.

The courts have a history of throwing out



(snip)

Not relevant. Your claim that is was a requirement degraded to your
current claim it is now a "unwritten" requirement, yet, according to
you, 'friends' of yours are cops who affirmed both your claims. Well,
Dave, you are full of **** again. I posed your question to several LEOs
in a traffic forum and you are wrong. Need the URL? Care to join me
where you can be educated by actual Pa. leos?

speed citations for small amounts, due to the

potential for inaccuracies in both the car

speedometer and the speed measuring

devices.



The success rate for having these

fines "stick" increases greatly when the

amounts exceed 5 MPH over.


And has nothing to do with any "unwritten requirement". If it is
unwritten, it can not be a requirement LEOs must follow.

I've gotten the same story from several

different cops who work in different precincts

and the state police.


LOL,,sure, sure, just like those you claimed agreed with you that roger
beeps are illegal, only you menstruate when asked to actually provide
for such a claim.
No, you haven't been told that by any Pa. cop, and the LEO forum serves
to illustrate your degeneration caused by pathological lies.

David T. Hall Jr

n3cvj

"Sandbagger"