Zoran Brlecic said :

You're making some huge assumptions in your posts:

I'll state again in advance. These comments apply to DXpeditions of
teams of operators to rare and very rare "most wanted" entities, not
to a couple of guys going on holiday with 100W and wires who want to
have some fun on the radio between bouts of excess partying and
golfing, etc.

That every dx-pedition's goal is to work everyone on Earth who calls
them and even those who don't.

I would venture to guess that if you have 10 or 15 members who put up
a few thousand dollars/euros/zlotys/rand/pesos/etc, give months of
their time to logistics and planning, going away on such a trip, etc,
that their goals are either to give that entity to as many hams as
want it on as many bands as possible or for a more targeted goal, such
as a focus on the low bands or WARC bands, focusing on digital modes,
focusing on satellite and 6 metres, etc. More often than not these
goals are on the team's Web site. You'll never hear a complaint from
me if a station's goals are to concentrate on EU low bands, since I
only operate casually on 40 and 80 (no space for a 160 antenna) and
I'm not in the EU.

However, when there are no stated objectives, or the stated objective
is to work as many stations as possible worldwide and they operate in
ways that belie that statement, I think it's fair to hold some degree
of criticism. Conversely, if you were in the EU and an operation
stated its goal was to work as many EU stations as possible, yet they
sat and worked only strong W/VEs all day and night long, you'd have a
valid complaint.

That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers

Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for
inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity. I'm not
saying everyone should be #1 on the Honor Roll, but they should be
experienced and savvy in the ways of DX, know what to listen for, know
how to control a pileup, etc. This, to my mind, is the single most
important aspect of the exercise. I'd rather an operation have 10
top-notch operators with 100W and wires than ten clueless but
well-intentioned newbies with a kW and yagis.

It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified
people he or she can find.

must speak English with a Brooklyn accent

Heavens, no! I want to understand them!! Besides, I live in Queens...I
hear enough of that every day, thanks very much.

In all seriousness, though, you are taking my positions on each of
these aspects and applying the most extreme reply. Maybe it's a Usenet
thing, I don't know. My thought is that each operator should be
conversant in the language that will be used primarily in the
operation.

If the operation is from Spain, with the goal of working as many
Spanish-speaking stations worldwide as possible, it would be insane to
bring along a team of Brits who can speak a few phrase book sentences.

To be honest, in my mind a good operation has operators from all over
the world, or at least operators who (between them) are conversant in
a few major languages -- English, Japanese, French and Spanish being
the most often heard. The reality is, however, that English is more
often than not the default language of operation, and, for variou$
rea$on$, the focus is often on the U$A, therefore, it should be
obvious that a team should be able to think in English and speak it
with reasonable clarity.

and must be familiar with the
FCC approved US band plan (the so-called "target areas" you called it).

Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of
the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is
it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway
around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that
we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of
operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300
(who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)?

This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate
or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations
are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this
geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of
inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very
well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well.

That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the
operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World

Please quote back to me, from my previous posts, where I said anything
about S9+ signals. Yes, if you're going to run a pileup of 50,000+
hams for 2 weeks, you should consider being LOUD if at all possible.

by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available.
Heck, a couple of old 4 element mono-banders or tribanders, verticals
with good radials, a nice-sized generator and 1000 or 1500 watts (or
whatever the legal limit is of the entity in question) shouldn't be
too hard to accomplish if it's a serious operation.

That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped,
whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and
effort" and that anyone should care about that.

Whether you care about my success is irrelevant. That I have invested
several hours over several days in finding them (whether by tuning or
cluster - yes, I use the cluster because it's a good tool in my DX
toolbox) IS an investment in time and energy, and if they do their
part, I *should* have a fair crack at getting a New One or a couple of
New Bands out of their operation.

If they do a good job and I just can't crack their pileups or I just
can't hear them, then fine--that's life. Big Deal. I couldn't hear or
work Cocos-Keeling or Christmas Island last year, neither can I hear
the V8 on now. I've seen many, many reports at the time that the VK9
operations were very well done, that many in NA got them, etc. I
didn't moan and whine that I couldn't get through because the
limitation was on my end -- either propagation between our terminals
was bad or because my equipment wasn't sufficient to hear them.
Neither situation is the fault of the operation. No poor planning, no
inexperienced operators, no pileup control issues, etc.

That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations
about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped.

There's the rub. That's the attitude that I find unfortunate, and one
you will never see me take towards anything. I enjoy seeing and
hearing and experiencing things that are done well, both inside and
outside of amateur radio. I like people who "do their best," be it
mounting a DXpedition, playing football or fixing toasters for a
living. Do your best at everything you do and you'll make as many
people happy as possible. The more corners you cut, the lesser will be
the enjoyment of your audience, be it a DXpedition who only gets a
marginal result, a 10th place football team or a toaster that goes
phhhhhpt after 10 minutes' operation.

It's because I have a great love for amateur radio that I make these
points here in this worldwide forum. I hope, sincerely hope, that
somebody who may be planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will take
heed of these cautions and maybe allow me -- and the hundreds of
thousands of others like me, to gain one more notch on our DX belts.
If they put up a good operation and everybody but me gets them, fine.
C'est la vie, c'est la guerre. If they do it crappily and I get
through but most others don't, it still won't be a good operation.

There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse.
One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster
which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a
McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to
join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the
inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has
become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge
nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that
money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid.

I can't disagree with either of these, but no amount of kvetching will
ever put these genies back in their respective bottles. Your earlier
thoughts display to me a belief in what I call neoDarwinism on the
bands - survival of the fittest. Well, these aspects of the DX art are
Darwinism in the truest forms--the need to adapt. given this is the
current accepted operating practice, do what's necessary to make a QSO
within those accepted parameters.

So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to
be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English
speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills
and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at
will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an
S9+ signal???

See my above points and don't take things to extreme. Or maybe that's
just your nature. I don't want to be handed anything, ever. I *DO*
want a fair chance with a deck that's not stacked, either for or
against me. I would venture most hams with average stations would be
grateful for the same chance.

You may feel differently if you're sitting in your shack looking at
your #1 Honor Roll plaque, or sitting behind the key or mic of a
mountain-top station with stacked yagis and legal-limit power.

You want fries with that?

Only if they're Québec "Patate Frites," thank you.

73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net

Doug Smith W9WI said :

Sure, it'd be nice if every rare one was activated by a team of skilled
operators with plenty of equipment. Sometimes, for reasons beyond the
control of the ham community, that's not possible.

When it's beyond their control, well, so be it. That's life. If it's
NOT beyond their control, however, then there's room for improvement
or a better performance.

I remember plenty of
grumbling about TO4E's weird operating schedule -- as it turns out, any
other schedule would have prevented the expedition altogether.

TO4E's biggest problem was a lost barrel of fuel for the generator.
That fault lies where it may. Once the were dealt the hand they got,
it was up to them to do their best with it. Did they do their best
with it? I'll leave that decision up to you.

My grand total of DXpedition experience consists of a few QSOs on 2
meters while mobile in Canada. If the Indian government were to invite
me to bring my old TS-680 and a Windom to VU4, should I turn them down?

....and our sked will be when?? grin

I would hope departure date you'd have something a little better than
the 680, but even if you didn't, you'd likely have done enough reading
on good DXpedition operating procedures to know how to manage the
pileups that will happen should that magical event ever happen.

73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net

Doug Smith W9WI said :

Sure, it'd be nice if every rare one was activated by a team of skilled
operators with plenty of equipment. Sometimes, for reasons beyond the
control of the ham community, that's not possible.

When it's beyond their control, well, so be it. That's life. If it's
NOT beyond their control, however, then there's room for improvement
or a better performance.

I remember plenty of
grumbling about TO4E's weird operating schedule -- as it turns out, any
other schedule would have prevented the expedition altogether.

TO4E's biggest problem was a lost barrel of fuel for the generator.
That fault lies where it may. Once the were dealt the hand they got,
it was up to them to do their best with it. Did they do their best
with it? I'll leave that decision up to you.

My grand total of DXpedition experience consists of a few QSOs on 2
meters while mobile in Canada. If the Indian government were to invite
me to bring my old TS-680 and a Windom to VU4, should I turn them down?

....and our sked will be when?? grin

I would hope departure date you'd have something a little better than
the 680, but even if you didn't, you'd likely have done enough reading
on good DXpedition operating procedures to know how to manage the
pileups that will happen should that magical event ever happen.

73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net

"Incognito" said :

Ah DX IS
It is indeed, but there's no rule that says we can't try our best to
help mold it in a certain way, and that's been the intent of this
thread.

I would say that 90% of the DXpeditions of late have been well run by good
to excellent operators.

I disagree. The BIG DXpeditons, yes. PW0T, K1B, TI9M, XR0X (which I
never worked, by the way), Mali last summer (which I also never
worked), etc. All good. But there have been a spate of others that
were poorly conceived and even more poorly executed. These are the
ones that I'm commenting on. Operations that could have and should
have done things differently.

About the same as 20 to 30 years ago.

Wasn't around 30 years ago, but 20+, yes, indeed.

Ya still gotta work em which we little guns know may take a LONG time and
some real DXing skills.

And lots of fun -- and heartbreak -- in the process! That's what keeps
the game fun.

As far as the newbies (and oldies) calling over the DX or ignoring directive
calls -- not much has changed there either -- same o same o. Recently I read
a 30 year old DX club news letter complaining about the same procedures,
lids, etc

Sad to see so little has changed. But the OPERATORS should know better
and NOT give the go-ahead to some lid who calls out of turn, unless
it's to shut him up and not log him! Even then, it sets a bad
precident, and just invites more lids to ignore the operator.

And it's the DXpeditions show. If they want to operate simplex, split, or
work their home country first -- well they are calling the shots.

And that one sentence is why I started this thread. I wrote it in the
fervent hope that some ham, somewhere in Upper Slobovia or Lower
Dipthong who is planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will read these
words and hopefully do things a little differently.


73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net

"Incognito" said :

Ah DX IS
It is indeed, but there's no rule that says we can't try our best to
help mold it in a certain way, and that's been the intent of this
thread.

I would say that 90% of the DXpeditions of late have been well run by good
to excellent operators.

I disagree. The BIG DXpeditons, yes. PW0T, K1B, TI9M, XR0X (which I
never worked, by the way), Mali last summer (which I also never
worked), etc. All good. But there have been a spate of others that
were poorly conceived and even more poorly executed. These are the
ones that I'm commenting on. Operations that could have and should
have done things differently.

About the same as 20 to 30 years ago.

Wasn't around 30 years ago, but 20+, yes, indeed.

Ya still gotta work em which we little guns know may take a LONG time and
some real DXing skills.

And lots of fun -- and heartbreak -- in the process! That's what keeps
the game fun.

As far as the newbies (and oldies) calling over the DX or ignoring directive
calls -- not much has changed there either -- same o same o. Recently I read
a 30 year old DX club news letter complaining about the same procedures,
lids, etc

Sad to see so little has changed. But the OPERATORS should know better
and NOT give the go-ahead to some lid who calls out of turn, unless
it's to shut him up and not log him! Even then, it sets a bad
precident, and just invites more lids to ignore the operator.

And it's the DXpeditions show. If they want to operate simplex, split, or
work their home country first -- well they are calling the shots.

And that one sentence is why I started this thread. I wrote it in the
fervent hope that some ham, somewhere in Upper Slobovia or Lower
Dipthong who is planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will read these
words and hopefully do things a little differently.


73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:53:39 GMT, Zoran Brlecic
wrote:

You want fries with that?

Yeah. Super sized fries, with an EQSL coupon on the side that we can
tear off, and the coupon needs to have a bar code on it that we can
scan to find the QSO in the online logs.....

Seems to me DXing used to be about figuring out ways to work the DX no
matter how they operated instead of molding the DX into doing things
perfectly. Maybe that's why they used to call it AMATEUR radio.....

73, Jim KH2D

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:53:39 GMT, Zoran Brlecic
wrote:

You want fries with that?

Yeah. Super sized fries, with an EQSL coupon on the side that we can
tear off, and the coupon needs to have a bar code on it that we can
scan to find the QSO in the online logs.....

Seems to me DXing used to be about figuring out ways to work the DX no
matter how they operated instead of molding the DX into doing things
perfectly. Maybe that's why they used to call it AMATEUR radio.....

73, Jim KH2D

Well here are 14 well run DXpeditions -- you work em ???
URL: http://www.425dxn.org/trophy_2003/

--
Incognito By Necessity (:-(

If you can't convince them, confuse them.
- - -Harry S Truman




wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:53:39 GMT, Zoran Brlecic
wrote:

You want fries with that?

Yeah. Super sized fries, with an EQSL coupon on the side that we can
tear off, and the coupon needs to have a bar code on it that we can
scan to find the QSO in the online logs.....

Seems to me DXing used to be about figuring out ways to work the DX no
matter how they operated instead of molding the DX into doing things
perfectly. Maybe that's why they used to call it AMATEUR radio.....

73, Jim KH2D

Well here are 14 well run DXpeditions -- you work em ???
URL: http://www.425dxn.org/trophy_2003/

--
Incognito By Necessity (:-(

If you can't convince them, confuse them.
- - -Harry S Truman




wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:53:39 GMT, Zoran Brlecic
wrote:

You want fries with that?

Yeah. Super sized fries, with an EQSL coupon on the side that we can
tear off, and the coupon needs to have a bar code on it that we can
scan to find the QSO in the online logs.....

Seems to me DXing used to be about figuring out ways to work the DX no
matter how they operated instead of molding the DX into doing things
perfectly. Maybe that's why they used to call it AMATEUR radio.....

73, Jim KH2D

"Incognito" said :

Well here are 14 well run DXpeditions -- you work em ???
URL: http://www.425dxn.org/trophy_2003/

Worked a good number of them; 8 or 9, I think. I can't hear southeast
Asia from here, so I couldn't get Pratas, Myanmar or Cocos-Keeling.
Never got through to 3C0V and was on business in the UK while Mali was
happening. Of the rest, I won't work an operation on bands/modes I
already have confirmed, so I sat out a few of those (Tunisia and
Marquesas come to mind).

I don't agree with the positioning of a few of them on that list, and
I certainly would not have ranked 3C0V that high, nor TO4E, nor
VP6DIA, though they all deserved to be on that list if for nothing
else going to entities that were desperately needed. Points for effort
and all that.

ST0RY was pretty good from what I remember, but I have Sudan on 10, 15
and 20, the only bands I could have gotten them on. Never heard them
on 12 or 17, though I was trying.

From my personal experience, I would have ranked AH3D highest. They
were absolutely first-rate. They were well-ordered with a good signal
and even when it was a madhouse for the first few days, they always
ran a good crisp-clean operation. I think it took me 2 days to get
through for the first time, and I got them on three bands, total.
Understand, of course, that the 425 list is Italian/EU centric, and I
wonder how well they were able to get a signal from Johnston into the
EU.

I like any operation that has worked through their piles so quickly
that in the waning days they're essentially begging.


73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net