"Dave Holford" wrote in message
...

...

Thierry wrote:
Just out of curiosity - all these measurements used the same power
meter?

Yes of course.


I don't recall ever seeing 100W on SSB with my TS-430, TS-440 or TS-570
when speaking, a steady tone will do it of course.

Hi,

This is the first time that we note this problem too and the problem was
detected by chance... :-((
All users are exprimented OM some for decades and never observe this
effect... All told me that indeed their TX cannot emit its full power in SSB
but rather 50-60% in speaking normally. So we were very surprised than one
of us could reach the full power...

Our friend used a TS-840S and some olders and show us at the radioclub what
the matter with its TX.
He nearly reaches and sometimes exceed the 100W...in SSB, something we even
can't get using a yaesu 1000 MP of the last generation !

So as he recently bought the new TS570D he immediately noticed the
difference. Even using an electret microphone (using a battery and known to
boost emissions much more than a dynamic one) he cannot get the full power
of its older TX. Therefore we did some complementary measurements and have
searched for some information. Hence this post and some others

So at first sight I suspected an error in its reading procedure, etc. But
not at all...
Someone having read my TS570D review on Internet explained me that he knew
the problem and how to solve it.

I am waiting now more detail (how to increase the signal and what about QRM,
etc).

Thierry


Dave

I am not going to address your technical issues with getting a higher
reading on the wattmeter. What I would like to point out is, even if you
manage to get your wattmeter to read 100 watts instead of 50 watts, the
change in power is going to be practically unnoticable on the other end.
There just isn't enough gain in doing this to make it worth any effort.



Ed WB6SAT

I am not going to address your technical issues with getting a higher
reading on the wattmeter. What I would like to point out is, even if you
manage to get your wattmeter to read 100 watts instead of 50 watts, the
change in power is going to be practically unnoticable on the other end.
There just isn't enough gain in doing this to make it worth any effort.



Ed WB6SAT

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 04:26:56 GMT, Zoran Brlecic
wrote:

Thierry wrote:

You partly right but this is well what I said in my post. The problem I
speak about is completely different.
As usual your comments are out of subject and from what I read you don't
even know the problem trying to compare wmy request to "CB". ! It is a pity
that an ham has a so bad ham spirit....

The real pity is in the fact that a ham has such a ****-poor
understanding of how SSB modulation works. Furthermore, if you want to
talk "out of subject", perhaps you might want to check your own messages
on rec.radio.* forums. Also, if you choose to interpret replies to your
messages that don't kiss your ass as "bad ham spirit", that's your
prerogative. Now back to the topic:

The reason I don' have 100W on SSB is due to the audio limiter so by
bypassing it I can get 100 w whatever your (false) opinion in that matter.
This is nothing to do with the compressor...

This is a complete bull****. How do you know you don't have 100W on SSB?

Z., a couple of months ago, Thierry was complaining of this same
problem. I asked him whether he was measuring ssb with an averaging
meter, vs. a peak-reading meter. He never really responded. I'm not
sure whether he even owns a morse key to look at the difference cw
will get you on an averaging meter, vs. ssb.

Oh, well...

Bob
k5qwg

Have you used an accurate laboratory standard peak-reading wattmeter? Do
you understand the nature of the SSB voice modulation? It is unrealistic
to expect that your general purpose amateur radio wattmeter will
indicate 100W during a normal SSB transmission. Just a reminder: an SSB
voice transmission transmits a modulated signal that has a dynamic
response of 20-30 dB, which means that the peak power of plosives will
be fairly close to 100W while fricatives, nasals and vowels will produce
anywhere from 0.1W to 100W, depending on your speech (which, in turn,
depends on the language, sex, physiognomy and many other individual
factors).
You want us to believe that although Kenwood provides a technical
specification for its transceivers (TS-570 included) that claims 100W
output on all amateur bands and in CW, SSB, FM and FSK modes, they fail
to deliver on this specification because they employ an "audio limiter",
so the way to get full power out of the rig is to bypass this circuit???

An accessory plug can bypass audio and therefore left the mic connector
unchanged so I can either use the TS570D in the standard way or connect a
mic to the accessory plug and operate full power SSB.

In other words, you can use an accessory DIN connector in the back to
input audio instead of going through the mike plug. The problem is that
this input goes to the same spot as the mike audio input. But, wait,
here's a magic solution:

The mod is relatively simple and requires a jumber and the removal of 3 or 4
smt components.
Of course this is not thanks to you that I had this information that may
interest others hams. Others did hopefully.

And here we go, just what I was talking about when I said you were
wasting time on CB-like schemes - that band is full of "experts" who
"increase" their power by employing all kinds of charlatan mumbo-jumbo
techniques, from audio boosters to magical 30 dB gain antennas. The
results are obvious for anyone who ever bothered to listen to that ****
when they illegally encroach on our 10 meter band.

Now you come along and make an ass of yourself first by completely
misunderstanding how SSB power is measured, then by modifying a properly
functioning rig with what can only be interpreted as a mod to eliminate
the ALC circuitry. The result will be your signal splattered all over
the bands and an increase in TVI.
Last, but not least, even if what I said was completely untrue, even if
you were able to magically "increase" your SSB power from, say 70W to
100W, this increase in power would result in the astoundingly lame 1.5
dB!!! And this at the expense of splattering the bands?

I told you once and I'll tell you again: build a better antenna instead
of wasting time on CB-like schemes.



73 .... WA7AA

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 04:26:56 GMT, Zoran Brlecic
wrote:

Thierry wrote:

You partly right but this is well what I said in my post. The problem I
speak about is completely different.
As usual your comments are out of subject and from what I read you don't
even know the problem trying to compare wmy request to "CB". ! It is a pity
that an ham has a so bad ham spirit....

The real pity is in the fact that a ham has such a ****-poor
understanding of how SSB modulation works. Furthermore, if you want to
talk "out of subject", perhaps you might want to check your own messages
on rec.radio.* forums. Also, if you choose to interpret replies to your
messages that don't kiss your ass as "bad ham spirit", that's your
prerogative. Now back to the topic:

The reason I don' have 100W on SSB is due to the audio limiter so by
bypassing it I can get 100 w whatever your (false) opinion in that matter.
This is nothing to do with the compressor...

This is a complete bull****. How do you know you don't have 100W on SSB?

Z., a couple of months ago, Thierry was complaining of this same
problem. I asked him whether he was measuring ssb with an averaging
meter, vs. a peak-reading meter. He never really responded. I'm not
sure whether he even owns a morse key to look at the difference cw
will get you on an averaging meter, vs. ssb.

Oh, well...

Bob
k5qwg

Have you used an accurate laboratory standard peak-reading wattmeter? Do
you understand the nature of the SSB voice modulation? It is unrealistic
to expect that your general purpose amateur radio wattmeter will
indicate 100W during a normal SSB transmission. Just a reminder: an SSB
voice transmission transmits a modulated signal that has a dynamic
response of 20-30 dB, which means that the peak power of plosives will
be fairly close to 100W while fricatives, nasals and vowels will produce
anywhere from 0.1W to 100W, depending on your speech (which, in turn,
depends on the language, sex, physiognomy and many other individual
factors).
You want us to believe that although Kenwood provides a technical
specification for its transceivers (TS-570 included) that claims 100W
output on all amateur bands and in CW, SSB, FM and FSK modes, they fail
to deliver on this specification because they employ an "audio limiter",
so the way to get full power out of the rig is to bypass this circuit???

An accessory plug can bypass audio and therefore left the mic connector
unchanged so I can either use the TS570D in the standard way or connect a
mic to the accessory plug and operate full power SSB.

In other words, you can use an accessory DIN connector in the back to
input audio instead of going through the mike plug. The problem is that
this input goes to the same spot as the mike audio input. But, wait,
here's a magic solution:

The mod is relatively simple and requires a jumber and the removal of 3 or 4
smt components.
Of course this is not thanks to you that I had this information that may
interest others hams. Others did hopefully.

And here we go, just what I was talking about when I said you were
wasting time on CB-like schemes - that band is full of "experts" who
"increase" their power by employing all kinds of charlatan mumbo-jumbo
techniques, from audio boosters to magical 30 dB gain antennas. The
results are obvious for anyone who ever bothered to listen to that ****
when they illegally encroach on our 10 meter band.

Now you come along and make an ass of yourself first by completely
misunderstanding how SSB power is measured, then by modifying a properly
functioning rig with what can only be interpreted as a mod to eliminate
the ALC circuitry. The result will be your signal splattered all over
the bands and an increase in TVI.
Last, but not least, even if what I said was completely untrue, even if
you were able to magically "increase" your SSB power from, say 70W to
100W, this increase in power would result in the astoundingly lame 1.5
dB!!! And this at the expense of splattering the bands?

I told you once and I'll tell you again: build a better antenna instead
of wasting time on CB-like schemes.



73 .... WA7AA

"Thierry" wrote in message ...
Hi,

If you have an external wattmeter connected to your transmitter, can you
make a test at 100 Watts PEP and give me your true emitting power in watts ?

Speaking normally (without shouting) in their mike with normal compression
(10 over 25), some hams say that their wattmeter displays a power of about
50-60 watts (of course in CW they reach 100 W)
But some arrive to move the niddle to about 100 watts in SSB using their
barefoot RTX...

This could be all over the map, depending on the type of wattmeter
used. Very few wattmeters are good at giving an accurate reading of
voice peaks. The meter movements are too slow. If someone see's the
full 100w on SSB, they either have an excellent peak reading
wattmeter, or they are overdriving their radio. I'd say the majority
#2...:/

It seems that some RTX can reach the nominal power doing a hardware
modification at the mike itself to increase the 60 w displayed in SSB to
about 100W. According these hams there is no disadvantage to make this
change.

There is no advantage either, if the mike circuit is capable of fully
driving the radio. The circuit you have is surely capable. All you
will end up doing is adding distortion, and lowering the setting you
keep your mike gain.

The problem mainly occurs of the Kenwood TS-570D (all the serie in fact)
using a handy mic or even a desk model (the ones sold by Kenwood).
The same problem occurs with the Yaesu 1000 MP (tested at 100 W).

I've never heard of any such problem. You are just being fooled by the
meter. Didn't this type thing come up a few weeks ago?
You have average reading meters, and you have type of peak reading
meters. With NORMAL drive, and average speach, you will usually see
only 25-35 watts on an average meter when doing 100w out. This is
normal!!! Don't try to pump up the gain to get more reading. You will
just overdrive.
Then you have passive peak reading meters. They are always sluggish,
and never read the full actual output. Most will average about 80w
peaks, with actual 100w peaks. All they are doing is adding a small
electrolytic cap to the meters to give some "hang time".
Then you have active peak reading meters. These will be the most
accurate, but still can't be taken as gospel as voice patterns vary.
If you can adjust your mike gain and be within the normal ALC specs
for that radio, you have enough mike drive.
If you can whistle hard into the mike, and get nearly 100w on the
meter, you have enough mike drive.
Don't worry about what you read on SSB. If you are doing 100w CW, you
should be doing it on SSB. Heck, When I run 1300w out, I usually see
only about 400w on average meter voice peaks. Don't think my voice
peaks are really 1300w? Go out and grab the end of my antenna, and get
back to me after the paramedics wake you up. :/ The bottom line.
Very, very few wattmeters are worth a hoot at measuring SSB voice
peaks. You are worrying about an issue that doesn't really exist.
Well, unless the rare case you do have a radio problem, but I doubt
it. A friend of mine runs a 570, and he's made no mention of this
"problem". Misunderstanding wattmeter action is very common among
newer hams. Thats why many overdrive, when they really are not
intending to. They are fooled by those dang blasted meters. MK

"Thierry" wrote in message ...
Hi,

If you have an external wattmeter connected to your transmitter, can you
make a test at 100 Watts PEP and give me your true emitting power in watts ?

Speaking normally (without shouting) in their mike with normal compression
(10 over 25), some hams say that their wattmeter displays a power of about
50-60 watts (of course in CW they reach 100 W)
But some arrive to move the niddle to about 100 watts in SSB using their
barefoot RTX...

This could be all over the map, depending on the type of wattmeter
used. Very few wattmeters are good at giving an accurate reading of
voice peaks. The meter movements are too slow. If someone see's the
full 100w on SSB, they either have an excellent peak reading
wattmeter, or they are overdriving their radio. I'd say the majority
#2...:/

It seems that some RTX can reach the nominal power doing a hardware
modification at the mike itself to increase the 60 w displayed in SSB to
about 100W. According these hams there is no disadvantage to make this
change.

There is no advantage either, if the mike circuit is capable of fully
driving the radio. The circuit you have is surely capable. All you
will end up doing is adding distortion, and lowering the setting you
keep your mike gain.

The problem mainly occurs of the Kenwood TS-570D (all the serie in fact)
using a handy mic or even a desk model (the ones sold by Kenwood).
The same problem occurs with the Yaesu 1000 MP (tested at 100 W).

I've never heard of any such problem. You are just being fooled by the
meter. Didn't this type thing come up a few weeks ago?
You have average reading meters, and you have type of peak reading
meters. With NORMAL drive, and average speach, you will usually see
only 25-35 watts on an average meter when doing 100w out. This is
normal!!! Don't try to pump up the gain to get more reading. You will
just overdrive.
Then you have passive peak reading meters. They are always sluggish,
and never read the full actual output. Most will average about 80w
peaks, with actual 100w peaks. All they are doing is adding a small
electrolytic cap to the meters to give some "hang time".
Then you have active peak reading meters. These will be the most
accurate, but still can't be taken as gospel as voice patterns vary.
If you can adjust your mike gain and be within the normal ALC specs
for that radio, you have enough mike drive.
If you can whistle hard into the mike, and get nearly 100w on the
meter, you have enough mike drive.
Don't worry about what you read on SSB. If you are doing 100w CW, you
should be doing it on SSB. Heck, When I run 1300w out, I usually see
only about 400w on average meter voice peaks. Don't think my voice
peaks are really 1300w? Go out and grab the end of my antenna, and get
back to me after the paramedics wake you up. :/ The bottom line.
Very, very few wattmeters are worth a hoot at measuring SSB voice
peaks. You are worrying about an issue that doesn't really exist.
Well, unless the rare case you do have a radio problem, but I doubt
it. A friend of mine runs a 570, and he's made no mention of this
"problem". Misunderstanding wattmeter action is very common among
newer hams. Thats why many overdrive, when they really are not
intending to. They are fooled by those dang blasted meters. MK

"Thierry" wrote in message
If such a modification exists for that TS570D or for any mic, can a ham do
it himself or can he ask his dealer to make the modificationcan
Where on the Internet can we find this procedure ?

Thanks in advance

Another note...Most all radios are set up from the factory to have the
mike controls match the stock mikes. So if you use the stock hand
mike, or stock desk mike, the mike gain controls "should" end up
being set in the middle range of the mike gain control. I know on my
706, if using the stock mike, I end up with the mike gain about on
"5", which is halfway. This is the way you want your mike set up. So
if you add on extra mikes, you want to adjust the gain to match what
you have, and let the radio be in the middle of it's range for gain.
How to adjust mike gain while talking? I have a method I use, which
seems fairly accurate. Set up the radio into a dummy load, and set
power output for 100w "full power". Use an average meter, or if peak
reading, set to "average".
Then set the mike gain at it's lowest setting. Then speak into the
mike in your normal volume, and say x-ray a couple of times at the
lowest mike setting. Then adjust the mike gain up a notch at a time,
and say x-ray a couple of times while on each increasing setting of
mike gain. When you get to the point where increasing the gain makes
no change on the indicated watt meter reading, you have full mike
drive. I bet if you try this on your radio, you will end up near the
half way mark on your mike drive when using a stock mike. When you get
to the point where you have no change, set it back to the first
setting that gave max reading, and you are pretty dang close to the
proper setting. Watching a scope while doing this is even better, but
this method is intended for non-scope users. And yes, being this is an
average meter being used, you will likely only see voice peaks of
25-35 watts or so. Depends on the voice. If you add a pre-amp to a
normal mike circuit, you will overdrive the radios own circuit, and
end up at "1" as far as your mike setting. Will make it real touchy,
and easy to overdrive.
If you did the "x-ray" test, and could go all the way to the end of
the mike gain, and were still seeing increasing average power, and
show no signs of clipping at all, it's then possible you would need a
preamp. It will be fairly obvious power is down from normal, once you
get used to what normal should look like on your particular meter. You
can also do a hard whistle test...I have to use a preamp for my audio
technica mike when going to the 706. I only get about half drive
without it. But thats a case of an aftermarket low Z "200 ohm" mike.
BTW, that same mike element drives my TS-830 with no preamp needed, so
radios vary to their mike gain requirements. Many old icoms needed
outboard mike preamps. "IE: 730,740, etc.. Also be aware that radios
will read different due to audio freq differences also. The bottom
line...If you see a point of no increase when adjusting, as when
normal, there is no point in adding any preamps. And also no point in
worrying what a particular meter reads on voice peaks unless it's
radically off from normal. The meter movements just can't keep up. MK

"Thierry" wrote in message
If such a modification exists for that TS570D or for any mic, can a ham do
it himself or can he ask his dealer to make the modificationcan
Where on the Internet can we find this procedure ?

Thanks in advance

Another note...Most all radios are set up from the factory to have the
mike controls match the stock mikes. So if you use the stock hand
mike, or stock desk mike, the mike gain controls "should" end up
being set in the middle range of the mike gain control. I know on my
706, if using the stock mike, I end up with the mike gain about on
"5", which is halfway. This is the way you want your mike set up. So
if you add on extra mikes, you want to adjust the gain to match what
you have, and let the radio be in the middle of it's range for gain.
How to adjust mike gain while talking? I have a method I use, which
seems fairly accurate. Set up the radio into a dummy load, and set
power output for 100w "full power". Use an average meter, or if peak
reading, set to "average".
Then set the mike gain at it's lowest setting. Then speak into the
mike in your normal volume, and say x-ray a couple of times at the
lowest mike setting. Then adjust the mike gain up a notch at a time,
and say x-ray a couple of times while on each increasing setting of
mike gain. When you get to the point where increasing the gain makes
no change on the indicated watt meter reading, you have full mike
drive. I bet if you try this on your radio, you will end up near the
half way mark on your mike drive when using a stock mike. When you get
to the point where you have no change, set it back to the first
setting that gave max reading, and you are pretty dang close to the
proper setting. Watching a scope while doing this is even better, but
this method is intended for non-scope users. And yes, being this is an
average meter being used, you will likely only see voice peaks of
25-35 watts or so. Depends on the voice. If you add a pre-amp to a
normal mike circuit, you will overdrive the radios own circuit, and
end up at "1" as far as your mike setting. Will make it real touchy,
and easy to overdrive.
If you did the "x-ray" test, and could go all the way to the end of
the mike gain, and were still seeing increasing average power, and
show no signs of clipping at all, it's then possible you would need a
preamp. It will be fairly obvious power is down from normal, once you
get used to what normal should look like on your particular meter. You
can also do a hard whistle test...I have to use a preamp for my audio
technica mike when going to the 706. I only get about half drive
without it. But thats a case of an aftermarket low Z "200 ohm" mike.
BTW, that same mike element drives my TS-830 with no preamp needed, so
radios vary to their mike gain requirements. Many old icoms needed
outboard mike preamps. "IE: 730,740, etc.. Also be aware that radios
will read different due to audio freq differences also. The bottom
line...If you see a point of no increase when adjusting, as when
normal, there is no point in adding any preamps. And also no point in
worrying what a particular meter reads on voice peaks unless it's
radically off from normal. The meter movements just can't keep up. MK

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 20:58:04 +0200, "Thierry"
wrote:


"Dave Holford" wrote in message
.. .

...

Thierry wrote:
Just out of curiosity - all these measurements used the same power
meter?

Yes of course.

What meter are you using? Brand and model number? Is it measuring
"average" power -- or "peak PEP" power?

Bob
k5qwg




I don't recall ever seeing 100W on SSB with my TS-430, TS-440 or TS-570
when speaking, a steady tone will do it of course.

Hi,

This is the first time that we note this problem too and the problem was
detected by chance... :-((
All users are exprimented OM some for decades and never observe this
effect... All told me that indeed their TX cannot emit its full power in SSB
but rather 50-60% in speaking normally. So we were very surprised than one
of us could reach the full power...

Our friend used a TS-840S and some olders and show us at the radioclub what
the matter with its TX.
He nearly reaches and sometimes exceed the 100W...in SSB, something we even
can't get using a yaesu 1000 MP of the last generation !

So as he recently bought the new TS570D he immediately noticed the
difference. Even using an electret microphone (using a battery and known to
boost emissions much more than a dynamic one) he cannot get the full power
of its older TX. Therefore we did some complementary measurements and have
searched for some information. Hence this post and some others

So at first sight I suspected an error in its reading procedure, etc. But
not at all...
Someone having read my TS570D review on Internet explained me that he knew
the problem and how to solve it.

I am waiting now more detail (how to increase the signal and what about QRM,
etc).

Thierry


Dave