On 9/8/2013 9:44 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 07:32:19 -0400, wrote:

On 9/8/2013 9:48 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 00:07:21 -0400, wrote:

On 9/7/2013 7:50 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 19:10:14 -0400, wrote:

Yeah, I read on the FCC site that I am ok as long as I am in US waters
or *not* communicating with a foreign station. Something like that. I
don't expect to have any issues related to this though. It gets pretty
cold up there near Canada and the water is even colder.
You DO realize that most Canadians live south of Duluth? Kitchener
is just north of the northern border of California - Great beaches on
Georgian bay and Lake Erie.. Great warm water canoeing and kayaking on
the Grand River.

The Great Lakes are a well known death trap for the unprepared kayaker.
Check out some of the accident analyses on the cold water safety web
site...

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/

As for Grand River, here is a table of water temps. Seems Grand River,
on the average, is only has a safe temperature for two months out of the
year, July 10 to Sept 10.

The grand on an AVERAGE year is safe as far as temps go from late june
to early October - and the water is generally (relatively) shallow and
slow moving through most of the watershed. This summer has been an
exception - running full almost all summer. THOUSANDS of canoeists
and kayakers all summer in the Kitchener and Cayuga areas in
particular.

The numbers I read *were* average numbers. What do you consider "safe"
water temps?


If I were to be kayaking near Canada it would be more likely East Coast
and that is ocean and even worse. That's all I meant.

BTW, being south of Duluth is no indication that the water is safe...
Check out this case study that happened right here in Virginia...

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/Rule2.html#rule2Case7

If you can't use the above link go to the cold water web site and click
through to Golden Rule 2, case 7. When you read many of these reports
it gets to you after a while.

Many of these accidents could have been prevented if the kayakers had
used a marine band VHF or other radio to contact help. That is one of
the reasons why I want to get a marine radio here.

Did you do any reading of the cold water safety site I mentioned. Most
people don't realize the danger of cold water or just how cold it needs
to be to be dangerous.
The temperatures right now - Sept 1 to 9, 2013 at the bottom of the
shand Dam at Belwood has been a steady 20C. It warms up as it flows
through the Elora Goege down to Brigeport (Kitchener) where it has
gone from 25 down to 20 and back up to 23C over the last 8 days.Down
at Port Maitland where it enters the lake, it has run from 27 to 21C,
and at it's coldest point it has varied between 18 and 15C.

This is colder than normal at this time of year due to heavier rains
and cooler weather. Last year it was likely 3-5C higher

15C is 59F,
23C is 73.4F
25 is 77F

At 60F water is borderline dangerous - but most places where the water
is currently that cold you could stand in the Grand and walk to shore.
Down at Port Maitland it handles great lakes freighters.
We used to swim in the grand and it's tributaries from early June on
untill late September as kids,

Get the book "paddling the Grand". It's about $20.

This has gotten *very* off topic for this group. But I want to point
out that your facts are wrong, dangerously wrong. You pointed me to a
book I would have to buy to read, but I don't need that. I have seen a
lot of *very* good info on the issue of cold water safety and water at
60°F is not *borderline* dangerous, it is just plain dangerous. If you
think that you can fall into water at that temperature regardless of how
deep it is without risk of death, you are mistaken. Go to the web site
I pointed you to and do some reading. *Everything* discussed on the web
site is backed by research and scientific evidence. It is all available.

This website and the National Center for Cold Water Safety was created
because of the many deaths which are largely attributed to the lack of
knowledge about the real hazards of cold water sports.

I won't discuss this further in this newsgroup, but feel free to contact
me directly if you wish or in another venue. Are there sports
newsgroups where this might be more appropriate? I'd be happy to
continue the conversation elsewhere.

--

Rick

On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 07:32:19 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 9/8/2013 9:48 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 00:07:21 -0400, wrote:

On 9/7/2013 7:50 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 19:10:14 -0400, wrote:

On 9/7/2013 6:47 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 17:03:14 -0400, wrote:

On 9/7/2013 4:44 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In , writes




It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is
not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore
communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for
ship to ship and ship to shore comms.

Although I've been a licensed radio amateur for over 50 years, I haven't
really got a clue about using the marine VHF radio band, and the
regulations appertaining to it.

However, Wikipedia indicates that "It is used for a wide variety of
purposes, including summoning rescue services and communicating with
harbours, locks, bridges and marinas".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_VHF_radio

The question therefore is essentially whether the land side of the
two-way communication could also include things like the support teams
for water-based events. I would have thought it would be standard
practice for them to have two-way marine-band communications equipment
for this purpose, and if so, it could be argued that the OP falls into
this (presumably) permitted category. If they don't use the normal VHF
marine band, what frequencies (and equipment) do they use? The obvious
course of action would be to get the FCC to advise on the matter.

I will be working on this in the coming week. Thanks for your comments.
"in Canada" non commercial vessels do not need a radio licence, but
operators require an operator's certificate..

Yeah, I read on the FCC site that I am ok as long as I am in US waters
or *not* communicating with a foreign station. Something like that. I
don't expect to have any issues related to this though. It gets pretty
cold up there near Canada and the water is even colder.
You DO realize that most Canadians live south of Duluth? Kitchener
is just north of the northern border of California - Great beaches on
Georgian bay and Lake Erie.. Great warm water canoeing and kayaking on
the Grand River.

The Great Lakes are a well known death trap for the unprepared kayaker.
Check out some of the accident analyses on the cold water safety web
site...

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/

As for Grand River, here is a table of water temps. Seems Grand River,
on the average, is only has a safe temperature for two months out of the
year, July 10 to Sept 10.

The grand on an AVERAGE year is safe as far as temps go from late june
to early October - and the water is generally (relatively) shallow and
slow moving through most of the watershed. This summer has been an
exception - running full almost all summer. THOUSANDS of canoeists
and kayakers all summer in the Kitchener and Cayuga areas in
particular.

The numbers I read *were* average numbers. What do you consider "safe"
water temps?


If I were to be kayaking near Canada it would be more likely East Coast
and that is ocean and even worse. That's all I meant.

BTW, being south of Duluth is no indication that the water is safe...
Check out this case study that happened right here in Virginia...

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/Rule2.html#rule2Case7

If you can't use the above link go to the cold water web site and click
through to Golden Rule 2, case 7. When you read many of these reports
it gets to you after a while.

Many of these accidents could have been prevented if the kayakers had
used a marine band VHF or other radio to contact help. That is one of
the reasons why I want to get a marine radio here.

Did you do any reading of the cold water safety site I mentioned. Most
people don't realize the danger of cold water or just how cold it needs
to be to be dangerous.
The temperatures right now - Sept 1 to 9, 2013 at the bottom of the
shand Dam at Belwood has been a steady 20C. It warms up as it flows
through the Elora Goege down to Brigeport (Kitchener) where it has
gone from 25 down to 20 and back up to 23C over the last 8 days.Down
at Port Maitland where it enters the lake, it has run from 27 to 21C,
and at it's coldest point it has varied between 18 and 15C.

This is colder than normal at this time of year due to heavier rains
and cooler weather. Last year it was likely 3-5C higher

15C is 59F,
23C is 73.4F
25 is 77F

At 60F water is borderline dangerous - but most places where the water
is currently that cold you could stand in the Grand and walk to shore.
Down at Port Maitland it handles great lakes freighters.
We used to swim in the grand and it's tributaries from early June on
untill late September as kids,

Get the book "paddling the Grand". It's about $20.

On 9/7/2013 9:46 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/7/2013 12:11 AM, Steve Crow wrote:

On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:

-- snip --

Forgive me if it got lost in the noise, which is quite possible, but I
haven't seen where you have spelled out exactly what the intended
application is, so I'm forced to make assumptions.

As for why we're getting worked up about it? Personally, I'm not, but
based on the responses you've received from others in this group, I can
see where you might assume that I am. Let me attempt to explain some
of the, ehem.. hostility?

Amateur radio operators generally take great pride in their licenses
and
the privileges afforded by that license. Likewise, they (we) generally
have a great respect for radio licensing, rules, and regulations,
because one component of the amateur radio service is self-policing of
the regulations and holding each other accountable for operating not
just within the letter of the law but with a high engineering standard.

As a result, when someone such as yourself comes along and has a
genuine
concern and truly wants help with something he doesn't understand, too
many amateur radio operators ("hams") get up on their high horse and
see
it as an opportunity to get all preachy and play FCC Police.

I don't play that game.

But that's why you're getting some of the responses you have.

Yes, I can see that, thanks for the rational response.


You're quite welcome.


Remember, too much of the ham radio crowd falls fully within the
"cranky
old fart" category. Sadly, I'll be there myself in another 30 years
or so!

Yeah, well I *am* a cranky old fart too, hence my responses... There
is no point in arguing something like this. I will very shortly just
quit responding to the other cranks.


Combine those three things and you have quite the quandry. Your
peers in
the hobby are using VHF marine with some degree of success and you
want
to be able to communicate with them. If your intended
communications are
anything like those of your friends, then they, too, are likely
operating in a manner that runs afoul of the law.

Can you be specific here. I have no idea what you are talking about.


Basically, the way I understand what you're after is a way to talk to
your friends/peers/etc within your kayaking hobby that are already
using
VHF marine radio. Which comes across as an assumption on your part that
because others are doing it, it must be legal, which is incorrect.

The info on the FCC site says to me that kayakers *are* using the
"marine VHF" radios legally. I don't know why anyone seems to think
they aren't.


I'm not in a position to decide that, not being well-versed in the
modern-day requirements of the VHF Marine radio service. My point was
that you, as the (prospective) license holder, are responsible for
operating within the FCC rules, and you can't necessarily base your
operating practice on the actions of others.

In fact, I dare say it's a pretty safe bet that a good chunk of the
people on the VHF Marine band aren't licensed at all. It's common within
the radio services where radio gear is readily accessible off-the-shelf,
particularly in retail stores. Illegal unlicensed use is rampant in
GMRS, and we also have problems with certain seasonal users (hunters)
using amateur radio gear in our bands without a license. It's likely
going on in the VHF Marine band, too.

Just be careful out there.

Yes, that is the current state of marine VHF. For certain users in
boats there is *no* licensing requirement. So unlicensed use is rampant
in marine VHF, but it isn't illegal.


Remember, just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it
legal.

There are a number of radio services that might fit your needs, which
have been discussed elsewhere in this thread, including MURS, GMRS,
FRS,
and, I believe to a lesser extent, amateur radio. However, none of
those
will grant you the type of interoperability you desire.

You left out VHF which is the one of choice. All I need to do is
justify the appropriate license.


No. I didn't. VHF is not a radio service. As was explained elsewhere in
this lengthy thread, VHF refers to the frequency band. There are three
major bands -- HF, VHF, and UHF. Within each band there are a number of
"radio services" -- each with a specific intended application and its
corresponding licensing requirements and operating regulations.

You don't get a "VHF license." You get a license for a radio service
that falls within the VHF bands, and for your purposes that could be
amateur radio (which, among other bands, has frequencies in VHF) and
MURS (which is VHF). The VHF Marine radio service falls within VHF, but
VHF itself is not a radio service.

That might be a part of the big misunderstanding here. Let me know if I
can clarify further.

I'm not sure what your point is exactly. I think you are being a bit
pedantic about my use of VHF as shorthand for "VHF Marine Radio" which
I thought was clear from context at this point. So for the record, I
will say I understand the difference.


Cool. I wanted to reiterate the difference because it is a pretty common
misunderstanding.

I admit that at one point when some were suggesting that I could get a
ham license I didn't realize that would not allow me to talk to the
"marine VHF" radios legally. I now understand that and am not pursuing
the amateur license discussion further.

Awesome. Now expect the rest of the folks here to run you out of the
amateur radio newsgroup.

On a more serious note, I'm always amazed that the response from so many
hams is to immediately suggest ham radio as the ultimate solution to any
communications dilemma, and quite often it is not. This was just one
such instance.

While there's no doubt it's an enjoyable hobby, and you'd probably get
some use out of it, it doesn't address your immediate needs.

(I was never a top performing sales guy at my last job. I wonder why?)


If you still have your heart set on using VHF Marine, the absolute
BEST
thing you could do is to pick up the phone and call the FCC.
1-888-CALL-FCC. You can get in touch with someone there who is
familiar
with the laws surrounding VHF Marine radio licensing and they will be
able to tell you whether you meet the requirements and exactly what
type
of license to get.

Good luck, and have fun on Lake Anna. I wish I were there!

Hey, you are welcome to come up sometime. We should be here this
weekend. Do you kayak or canoe?

I've always wanted to, but it's one of many things on my very long list
of things to try!

You don't even have to come up here. We sometimes go to Richmond to
paddle the James. There is a very active meetup.com kayaking group
called Virgina Paddlers. They have one or two fla****er kayak trips
near Richmond every week in season. It is pretty easy to borrow
equipment most of the time. Kayakers tend to be a very friendly and
generous crowd.

I'll likely end up sitting at home, on my gradually widening ass,
watching infomercials and eating frozen pizza... though it does sound
appealing!

Kayaking is awesome! I have a place on the water and I would take the
canoe out from time to time. But if there is any wind a canoe just gets
blown away. Then I got a kayak and the difference is amazing. In a
canoe you are a foot or so off the water, in a kayak your rear is
actually below the water line and you feel so much more a part of it.

The widening profile is not just mythical and not without consequence.
If you think you might enjoy the water, I strongly encourage you to get
out there and do something. Not only is it fantastic exercise, it is a
very social activity and the people are *great*. Don't just sit
there... Oh, did I mention there are lots of women who kayak? Often
more women than men show up at paddles... can you say that about ham fests?

Thank you for being a rational voice here. I don't think what I want to
do is unreasonable. I am sorry that some folks here responded so
strongly to my comments about the purpose of the marine VHF rules. Maybe
they can take a lesson from you...



My boat sank off Mitkof Island at night in the winter of 1971. There was
moss ice on the water and the air was -20. I had sent a distress call on
the radio. A tug cut its tow and pulled me out of the water and
resuscitated me. When the boat sank and I went into the water it felt
like I had been hit alongside the head with a 2X4. I was mercifully out
of consciousness within seconds. I have to say that it would be a very
quick way to die.

I grew up alongside the Pacific Ocean on the North Coast of Oregon. The
water temperature was in the 40s. We could swim in that surf for about
20 minutes before we turned blue. It was great fun in the surf but
pretty dangerous. We were forbidden by our parents to do this, but being
forbidden made it better. :-)

I can say from my experience that any kind of cold water can kill. When
it is at freezing it kills very quickly, when it is in the 40s it kills
a little more slowly. I think the temperature and time probably could be
made into a formula for death.

Like I said before, if you can keep from being cited by the FCC, a
marine radio would work pretty well for your purposes. It is very short
range and if you are using it in a small lake, the chances of your being
monitored are remote. Also you would not cause interference to anyone else.


Michael

On 9/9/2013 12:49 PM, Reader wrote:
On 9/7/2013 9:46 AM, rickman wrote:

Thank you for being a rational voice here. I don't think what I want to
do is unreasonable. I am sorry that some folks here responded so
strongly to my comments about the purpose of the marine VHF rules. Maybe
they can take a lesson from you...



My boat sank off Mitkof Island at night in the winter of 1971. There was
moss ice on the water and the air was -20. I had sent a distress call on
the radio. A tug cut its tow and pulled me out of the water and
resuscitated me. When the boat sank and I went into the water it felt
like I had been hit alongside the head with a 2X4. I was mercifully out
of consciousness within seconds. I have to say that it would be a very
quick way to die.

I have to say you were indeed a lucky one to have survived your
experience. What you felt is called cold shock, your body's response to
immersion in cold water. It is worse with decreasing temperature, but
actually reaches it's maximum between 50 and 60 degrees. Colder
temperatures than this do not produce a more severe effect because your
body is already responding at its maximum.

There is often an initial gasp reflex on sudden immersion resulting in a
lung full of water which is typically fatal. If you survive this, you
lose control of your breathing.

It takes some 5 to 15 minutes for you to lose the ability to use your
limbs depending on the water temperature.


I grew up alongside the Pacific Ocean on the North Coast of Oregon. The
water temperature was in the 40s. We could swim in that surf for about
20 minutes before we turned blue. It was great fun in the surf but
pretty dangerous. We were forbidden by our parents to do this, but being
forbidden made it better. :-)

The gasp reflex and cold shock can be mitigated by acclimation. By
going into the cold water often you likely built up some resistance to
these effects. This will wear off in about the same amount of time it
took to acquire it, so it would not have helped you by the time of your
accident.


I can say from my experience that any kind of cold water can kill. When
it is at freezing it kills very quickly, when it is in the 40s it kills
a little more slowly. I think the temperature and time probably could be
made into a formula for death.

That is actually dependent on a number of other factors such as your
body fat and of course clothing you are wearing. Increased body fat
extends the time you can be immersed before suffering from hypothermia.
Physical conditioning does nothing to help.


Like I said before, if you can keep from being cited by the FCC, a
marine radio would work pretty well for your purposes. It is very short
range and if you are using it in a small lake, the chances of your being
monitored are remote. Also you would not cause interference to anyone else.

Yes, I will be kayaking this weekend and will discuss the issue with
some of my fellow paddlers. I'm sure they know more about this than I
have heard from them before.

--

Rick

On 9/11/2013 12:46 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/9/2013 12:49 PM, Reader wrote:
On 9/7/2013 9:46 AM, rickman wrote:

Thank you for being a rational voice here. I don't think what I want to
do is unreasonable. I am sorry that some folks here responded so
strongly to my comments about the purpose of the marine VHF rules. Maybe
they can take a lesson from you...



My boat sank off Mitkof Island at night in the winter of 1971. There was
moss ice on the water and the air was -20. I had sent a distress call on
the radio. A tug cut its tow and pulled me out of the water and
resuscitated me. When the boat sank and I went into the water it felt
like I had been hit alongside the head with a 2X4. I was mercifully out
of consciousness within seconds. I have to say that it would be a very
quick way to die.

I have to say you were indeed a lucky one to have survived your
experience. What you felt is called cold shock, your body's response to
immersion in cold water. It is worse with decreasing temperature, but
actually reaches it's maximum between 50 and 60 degrees. Colder
temperatures than this do not produce a more severe effect because your
body is already responding at its maximum.

There is often an initial gasp reflex on sudden immersion resulting in a
lung full of water which is typically fatal. If you survive this, you
lose control of your breathing.

It takes some 5 to 15 minutes for you to lose the ability to use your
limbs depending on the water temperature.


I grew up alongside the Pacific Ocean on the North Coast of Oregon. The
water temperature was in the 40s. We could swim in that surf for about
20 minutes before we turned blue. It was great fun in the surf but
pretty dangerous. We were forbidden by our parents to do this, but being
forbidden made it better. :-)

The gasp reflex and cold shock can be mitigated by acclimation. By
going into the cold water often you likely built up some resistance to
these effects. This will wear off in about the same amount of time it
took to acquire it, so it would not have helped you by the time of your
accident.


I can say from my experience that any kind of cold water can kill. When
it is at freezing it kills very quickly, when it is in the 40s it kills
a little more slowly. I think the temperature and time probably could be
made into a formula for death.

That is actually dependent on a number of other factors such as your
body fat and of course clothing you are wearing. Increased body fat
extends the time you can be immersed before suffering from hypothermia.
Physical conditioning does nothing to help.


Like I said before, if you can keep from being cited by the FCC, a
marine radio would work pretty well for your purposes. It is very short
range and if you are using it in a small lake, the chances of your being
monitored are remote. Also you would not cause interference to anyone
else.

Yes, I will be kayaking this weekend and will discuss the issue with
some of my fellow paddlers. I'm sure they know more about this than I
have heard from them before.


Hi Rick

Yes I was lucky. My wife was listening to the radio at home. I had a
transceiver on 2182 at home. Oh dear, my bad it was illegal. She heard
my distress call and was on the edge of her seat. She then heard a
report from the tug that I had been recovered and was not breathing. She
thought the life she knew was over. Very traumatic for her, but not so
for me. She then heard the report that I had regained consciousness.

These events give one great respect for the elements and having a radio.

:-)

Michael

In article , rickman
wrote:

I am going to be providing shore monitoring for a kayak trip and will be
using a VHF radio from my pickup. I am thinking of installing a unit
rather than using a handheld. I took a look at what there is available
and it seems like the prices start at just over $100 for the unit itself
running up to $500 for a fancy unit that is mounted somewhere hidden and
all the controls in a hand held mic.

Other than the obvious features like the remote mic unit, what should I
look for in getting a quality unit that will work the best without
breaking the bank. I don't want to pay $500, but I will pay $200 or
more if there is a useful difference with the ~$100 units.

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Words of advice?


Have you ever heard the saying that the Usenet has given new life to
the uninformed opinion? Stop arguing with people who don't know what
they are talking about. If you needed a shore-side license for a new
marina or yacht club, your question could be answered easily. It sounds
like you propose to be the equivalent of what a mountain-climbing
expedition would call a "ground man." What you propose is sufficiently
unusual that I will guess that not 50 people in the world could advise
you on it. One category would be the high-priced communications lawyers
that advise the large corporations that own the commercial radio
industry. Another category would be the radio experts at the Coast
Guard's headquarters offices. The last category would be in the depths
of the FCC headquarters offices. You will need to get past a few layers
of call screeners before you reach an expert who can give an informed
answer to a question about an esoteric point of technical regulations,
but you will get a definitive answer at a price you can afford to pay
(zero).
By the way, I hold an Amateur Extra license and a general
radiotelephone operator's license with a radar endorsement and I have no
idea what the answer is.

--
Klystron

On 9/11/2013 7:41 PM, Klystron wrote:
In article , rickman
wrote:

I am going to be providing shore monitoring for a kayak trip and will be
using a VHF radio from my pickup. I am thinking of installing a unit
rather than using a handheld. I took a look at what there is available
and it seems like the prices start at just over $100 for the unit itself
running up to $500 for a fancy unit that is mounted somewhere hidden and
all the controls in a hand held mic.

Other than the obvious features like the remote mic unit, what should I
look for in getting a quality unit that will work the best without
breaking the bank. I don't want to pay $500, but I will pay $200 or
more if there is a useful difference with the ~$100 units.

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Words of advice?


Have you ever heard the saying that the Usenet has given new life to
the uninformed opinion? Stop arguing with people who don't know what
they are talking about. If you needed a shore-side license for a new
marina or yacht club, your question could be answered easily. It sounds
like you propose to be the equivalent of what a mountain-climbing
expedition would call a "ground man." What you propose is sufficiently
unusual that I will guess that not 50 people in the world could advise
you on it. One category would be the high-priced communications lawyers
that advise the large corporations that own the commercial radio
industry. Another category would be the radio experts at the Coast
Guard's headquarters offices. The last category would be in the depths
of the FCC headquarters offices. You will need to get past a few layers
of call screeners before you reach an expert who can give an informed
answer to a question about an esoteric point of technical regulations,
but you will get a definitive answer at a price you can afford to pay
(zero).
By the way, I hold an Amateur Extra license and a general
radiotelephone operator's license with a radar endorsement and I have no
idea what the answer is.


Klystron,

I also hold an Amateur Extra class license (since 1971) and a General
Radiotelephone Operator's license (grandfathered from a First Class
Radiotelephone Operator's License in 1970) with Ship's Radar Endorsement
(1972). And I have worked in many areas, including land mobile,
maritime and broadcast radio.

Even I know enough to check the FCC Regulations for the law regarding
licensing. And according to the references earlier in this thread, he
doesn't qualify for any shore license.

But you're right - he needs to check with a legal authority - in this
case, it would be an attorney familiar with maritime radio licensing.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 9/11/2013 11:03 AM, Reader wrote:
On 9/11/2013 12:46 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/9/2013 12:49 PM, Reader wrote:
On 9/7/2013 9:46 AM, rickman wrote:

Thank you for being a rational voice here. I don't think what I want to
do is unreasonable. I am sorry that some folks here responded so
strongly to my comments about the purpose of the marine VHF rules.
Maybe
they can take a lesson from you...



My boat sank off Mitkof Island at night in the winter of 1971. There was
moss ice on the water and the air was -20. I had sent a distress call on
the radio. A tug cut its tow and pulled me out of the water and
resuscitated me. When the boat sank and I went into the water it felt
like I had been hit alongside the head with a 2X4. I was mercifully out
of consciousness within seconds. I have to say that it would be a very
quick way to die.

I have to say you were indeed a lucky one to have survived your
experience. What you felt is called cold shock, your body's response to
immersion in cold water. It is worse with decreasing temperature, but
actually reaches it's maximum between 50 and 60 degrees. Colder
temperatures than this do not produce a more severe effect because your
body is already responding at its maximum.

There is often an initial gasp reflex on sudden immersion resulting in a
lung full of water which is typically fatal. If you survive this, you
lose control of your breathing.

It takes some 5 to 15 minutes for you to lose the ability to use your
limbs depending on the water temperature.


I grew up alongside the Pacific Ocean on the North Coast of Oregon. The
water temperature was in the 40s. We could swim in that surf for about
20 minutes before we turned blue. It was great fun in the surf but
pretty dangerous. We were forbidden by our parents to do this, but being
forbidden made it better. :-)

The gasp reflex and cold shock can be mitigated by acclimation. By
going into the cold water often you likely built up some resistance to
these effects. This will wear off in about the same amount of time it
took to acquire it, so it would not have helped you by the time of your
accident.


I can say from my experience that any kind of cold water can kill. When
it is at freezing it kills very quickly, when it is in the 40s it kills
a little more slowly. I think the temperature and time probably could be
made into a formula for death.

That is actually dependent on a number of other factors such as your
body fat and of course clothing you are wearing. Increased body fat
extends the time you can be immersed before suffering from hypothermia.
Physical conditioning does nothing to help.


Like I said before, if you can keep from being cited by the FCC, a
marine radio would work pretty well for your purposes. It is very short
range and if you are using it in a small lake, the chances of your being
monitored are remote. Also you would not cause interference to anyone
else.

Yes, I will be kayaking this weekend and will discuss the issue with
some of my fellow paddlers. I'm sure they know more about this than I
have heard from them before.


Hi Rick

Yes I was lucky. My wife was listening to the radio at home. I had a
transceiver on 2182 at home. Oh dear, my bad it was illegal. She heard
my distress call and was on the edge of her seat. She then heard a
report from the tug that I had been recovered and was not breathing. She
thought the life she knew was over. Very traumatic for her, but not so
for me. She then heard the report that I had regained consciousness.

These events give one great respect for the elements and having a radio.

Yes, that is why I want to support the kayakers on the paddle next week,
as a safety measure. Last year we had a stiff wind from the north which
created significant waves at the start and a number of paddlers were not
able to make it all the way. I was part of the team which tracked their
progress and got them off the water. Cold was not an issue in this
case. Cold water makes such events much more dangerous. That is why I
want to have good radio communications.

I will be doing what is required to do this legally even if it means
sitting in a boat at the edge of the water.

Please take a look at this web site and let me know what you think. It
currently has a definite sea kayaking focus, but the intent is to
ultimately be inclusive of anyone who may end up in cold water, even if
not in a boat. If you would like to share the details of your story it
would be appreciated. You can contact me at the email address gnuarm at
gmail dot com

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/

--

Rick

On 9/11/2013 7:41 PM, Klystron wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I am going to be providing shore monitoring for a kayak trip and will be
using a VHF radio from my pickup. I am thinking of installing a unit
rather than using a handheld. I took a look at what there is available
and it seems like the prices start at just over $100 for the unit itself
running up to $500 for a fancy unit that is mounted somewhere hidden and
all the controls in a hand held mic.

Other than the obvious features like the remote mic unit, what should I
look for in getting a quality unit that will work the best without
breaking the bank. I don't want to pay $500, but I will pay $200 or
more if there is a useful difference with the ~$100 units.

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Words of advice?


Have you ever heard the saying that the Usenet has given new life to
the uninformed opinion? Stop arguing with people who don't know what
they are talking about. If you needed a shore-side license for a new
marina or yacht club, your question could be answered easily. It sounds
like you propose to be the equivalent of what a mountain-climbing
expedition would call a "ground man." What you propose is sufficiently
unusual that I will guess that not 50 people in the world could advise
you on it. One category would be the high-priced communications lawyers
that advise the large corporations that own the commercial radio
industry. Another category would be the radio experts at the Coast
Guard's headquarters offices. The last category would be in the depths
of the FCC headquarters offices. You will need to get past a few layers
of call screeners before you reach an expert who can give an informed
answer to a question about an esoteric point of technical regulations,
but you will get a definitive answer at a price you can afford to pay
(zero).
By the way, I hold an Amateur Extra license and a general
radiotelephone operator's license with a radar endorsement and I have no
idea what the answer is.

Thanks for your reply. I fully plan to contact the FCC about this.

--

Rick

rickman wrote:

Yes, that is why I want to support the kayakers on the paddle next week,
as a safety measure. Last year we had a stiff wind from the north which
created significant waves at the start and a number of paddlers were not
able to make it all the way. I was part of the team which tracked their
progress and got them off the water. Cold was not an issue in this
case. Cold water makes such events much more dangerous. That is why I
want to have good radio communications.

IMHO you would be far better off having them get cellphones with GPS
in them and have them phone in with their exact location if they need help.

You don't need a waterproof phone, if you double bag it in one of those
plastic bags sold to boaters to keep things dry, you should be ok.

I don't know how close to the shore they intend to stay, but if they get
far enough out, the conversation about where they are is something like:

"What do you see in front of you"? "Water".
"What do you see behind you"? "Water".
and so on.

Or even worse, when the answer to that question is "Fog".

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379