On 9/3/2013 2:10 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 1:41 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
In article ,
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes:
rickman wrote:
Yes, I am in the US. The radio will be used to support marine
communications which is legal by my understanding.

Not unless you have a license. Otherwise you risk a $10,000 fine.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...ship_stations#

Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land


Am I the only one who doesn't think a kayak on the Chesapeake would
be considered "a ship" and that none of this is relevant to what
he wants to do? Seems like a task for GMRS to me.

bill


Bill,

I'm not sure about that - it would depend on the FCC's definition of
"ship". Nothing I've seen indicates it has to be a big boat on a
navigable waterway; for instance a 20' fishing boat on a large inland
lake might be considered a "ship".

I agree GMRS is one way to go - but the limited range of such equipment
is what he's trying to solve.

A friend who is a serious kayaker has been on the bay a number of times
when he communicates with the large cargo ships (like when he is doing a
crossing for example). They always address him as "Captain" Dubside.
He finds that amusing.

There are a number of reasons why VHF is used, the main one is for the
ability to send out a distress call that is likely to be received.
Where I have a house at Lake Anna, VA, the same is not true, I want to
be the first shore station which monitors channel 16.

--

Rick

In article , rickman wrote:

[whole bunch of unneeded previous quotage deleted]


Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I
found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out
the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the
handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station.

Jerry's suggestion of getting amateur radio licenses is a good one
if GMRS won't suit your needs.

If you're involved in kayaking, do you not have an outdoors or
marine store near you? They would certainly be familiar with the
best communications options for that sport.


Patty
N6BIS

wrote:
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
rickman wrote:

Where is the violation? As long as the trucks are only transmitting to
^^^^^^^^^^^^

the ships, isn't that ok? Just having them shouldn't be a problem. The
issue is how you use them, no?


No. It is NOT OK.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...stations#Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land

Geoff.

Note that the question asked was "Just having them".

If the trucks just have them, only monitor, and never transmit, they are
legal.



No, he said, they would be transmitting. Reread what he wrote and I quoted.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
wrote:
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
rickman wrote:

Where is the violation? As long as the trucks are only transmitting to
^^^^^^^^^^^^

the ships, isn't that ok? Just having them shouldn't be a problem. The
issue is how you use them, no?


No. It is NOT OK.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...stations#Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land

Geoff.

Note that the question asked was "Just having them".

If the trucks just have them, only monitor, and never transmit, they are
legal.



No, he said, they would be transmitting. Reread what he wrote and I quoted.

Geoff.

You reread it; there were several questions there.

Care to explain what is wrong with my all purpose answer to all those
questions, i.e. if the trucks just have them, only monitor, and never
transmit, they are legal?



--
Jim Pennino

Bill Gunshannon wrote:
In article ,
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes:
rickman wrote:
Yes, I am in the US. The radio will be used to support marine
communications which is legal by my understanding.

Not unless you have a license. Otherwise you risk a $10,000 fine.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...ship_stations#
Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land


Am I the only one who doesn't think a kayak on the Chesapeake would
be considered "a ship" and that none of this is relevant to what
he wants to do? Seems like a task for GMRS to me.

bill

While GMRS or amateur radio might be a better solution, there is no
minimum size for a "ship".



--
Jim Pennino

On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, Patty Winter wrote:
In , wrote:

[whole bunch of unneeded previous quotage deleted]


Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I
found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out
the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the
handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station.

Jerry's suggestion of getting amateur radio licenses is a good one
if GMRS won't suit your needs.

If you're involved in kayaking, do you not have an outdoors or
marine store near you? They would certainly be familiar with the
best communications options for that sport.

Actually I expect they would know what they sell, which for the most
part would be handheld devices for kayaks and such and 25 Watt devices
for powered vessels. Originally I thought I was asking simple questions
about installation, but it seems the licensing is the problem. Even
hand held use from land is not allowed if I am reading this correctly.

The initial use is to support a group of kayakers who are paddling
around Kent Island, an all day trip. In the past we have driven from
access point to access point so that we can stay in contact with them
and assist if required. We provide information on conditions and relay
information between groups in the paddle. This has been done with hand
held units and the reliability of the connection is spotty at best due
to the limited sight distance. I was hoping to get better coverage by
installing a higher power unit in my truck and using an antenna with
better figures as well as at a higher location.

So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial
unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two
weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe
would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said,
I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in
monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an
option for next year...

--

Rick

On 9/3/2013 3:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:05 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a
possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount
it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring.
So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and
brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Rick-

I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the
radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed.

One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to
cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature
of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range.

You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the
square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For
example,
the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet
off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your
horizon on
level ground will be about 3 miles away.

You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would
matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or
lake.

If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall
antenna
may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?)
ccc
Hi Fred, I appreciate the response.

I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight
for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than
having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like
hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The
other end of the link will all be handheld radios.

The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land
obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it
seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience
with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have
expected.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like
what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of
course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be
similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the
prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig
deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more
clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually
ok?

I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF.
Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help
figuring out the questions.


Rick,

You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in the
United States, so are governed by the FCC.

Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river,
but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do.

You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to
"provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if
the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to
vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is.

Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these restricted to
handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a
service to vessels".

Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't
have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is
basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable
antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license
here, but family members can all operate under the same license
(individual licenses are not required).

Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you
would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies,
etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you
aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many
ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of
course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a
repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck, assuming
one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake
River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters).

I hope this helps you with some ideas.

Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I
found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out
the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the
handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station.
One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the
form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the
application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license",
but I can't find that info at the moment.

Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the
unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses?


OK, I did a little more looking into the FCC regs (Part 80 governs
Maritime use). The supplemental restrictions for a Private Coastal
Station are listed at
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.78.1&idno=47.


It looks like you do not meet any of the requirements, so you would not
be eligible for such a license.

I might be able to justify "(8) A person servicing or supplying vessels
other than commercial transport vessels;" Worth a try. I do fiberglas
repair as well as maintenance of the mechanical parts on the kayaks that
have rudders or skegs. This is not a profession, but they seem to be
pushing for non-commercial use on this one.

But a amateur license might be the best bet. Does this require my to
learn a bunch of technical stuff? That shouldn't be a problem, in
theory I'm an EE, but I've done mostly digital work and I know RF is a
whole different animal. Can you point me in the right direction toward
getting an amateur license that would let me operate a marine radio on
land? Who knows, I might end up doing a bunch of other amateur radio
stuff... I know it can be an addictive hobby... lol

--

Rick

On 9/3/2013 10:10 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:05 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a
possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount
it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring.
So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and
brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Rick-

I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the
radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed.

One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to
cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature
of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range.

You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the
square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For
example,
the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet
off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your
horizon on
level ground will be about 3 miles away.

You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would
matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open
ocean or
lake.

If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall
antenna
may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell
phones?)
ccc
Hi Fred, I appreciate the response.

I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight
for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other
than
having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like
hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The
other end of the link will all be handheld radios.

The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land
obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it
seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience
with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have
expected.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like
what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of
course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience
with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be
similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the
prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig
deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal
more
clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually
ok?

I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF.
Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help
figuring out the questions.


Rick,

You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in
the
United States, so are governed by the FCC.

Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river,
but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do.

You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to
"provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if
the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to
vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is.

Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these
restricted to
handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a
service to vessels".

Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't
have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is
basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable
antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license
here, but family members can all operate under the same license
(individual licenses are not required).

Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you
would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies,
etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you
aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many
ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of
course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a
repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck,
assuming
one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake
River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters).

I hope this helps you with some ideas.

Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I
found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out
the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the
handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station.
One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the
form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the
application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license",
but I can't find that info at the moment.

Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the
unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses?


OK, I did a little more looking into the FCC regs (Part 80 governs
Maritime use). The supplemental restrictions for a Private Coastal
Station are listed at
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.78.1&idno=47.



It looks like you do not meet any of the requirements, so you would not
be eligible for such a license.

I might be able to justify "(8) A person servicing or supplying vessels
other than commercial transport vessels;" Worth a try. I do fiberglas
repair as well as maintenance of the mechanical parts on the kayaks that
have rudders or skegs. This is not a profession, but they seem to be
pushing for non-commercial use on this one.


I'm not sure you can justify it. You're doing it as a hobby, for your
club (or whatever), not as a commercial enterprise. The FCC seems to be
trying to limit the number of land licenses being issued.

But a amateur license might be the best bet. Does this require my to
learn a bunch of technical stuff? That shouldn't be a problem, in
theory I'm an EE, but I've done mostly digital work and I know RF is a
whole different animal. Can you point me in the right direction toward
getting an amateur license that would let me operate a marine radio on
land? Who knows, I might end up doing a bunch of other amateur radio
stuff... I know it can be an addictive hobby... lol


You'll need to learn some rules and regs, and some theory. But it's not
hard - the question pool is published; nowadays people just memorize the
pool from which the questions are taken.

But an Amateur Radio license allows you to operate Amateur Radios - no
marine or any others. That's why I say everyone in control of a radio
(including on the kayaks) would have to have a ham license (and call
sign). But we have lots of frequencies available and lots of options.

You can find more information at www.arrl.org.




--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.

==================

In article , rickman wrote:


[Please trim unnecessary quoted text!]


So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial
unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two
weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe
would allow me to communicate with the paddlers.

Yes, as long as at least one person in each kayak is also licensed.


Patty

"rickman" wrote in message news:l064q8$jm5$1@dont-
But a amateur license might be the best bet. Does this require my to
learn a bunch of technical stuff? That shouldn't be a problem, in theory
I'm an EE, but I've done mostly digital work and I know RF is a whole
different animal. Can you point me in the right direction toward getting
an amateur license that would let me operate a marine radio on land? Who
knows, I might end up doing a bunch of other amateur radio stuff... I know
it can be an addictive hobby... lol

--

I have not read all the thread, but the main thing for amateur license is
there any money changing hands in the process? If not and this is just a
bunch of friends, then the amateur (ham) license canbe the way to go. You
can use whatever ammount of power you want up to 1500 watts. There are some
5 watt hand held units for around $ 50 that seem to work fine. Mobile units
of around 50 watts for less than $ 200 .

You do not really have to know anything, just have the ability to memorize
the answers to around 300 questions. You can get a book (or down load it on
line) that has the exect questions and answers. The test will be a portion
of the question pool. I think that 70 % is passing. The questions have 4
multiple choice answers to choose from. I don't know the price to take the
test now, but probably under $ 15. The exams are given several times a year
in most states at differant locations.

You can go here to see some practice tests.
http://qrz.com/hamtest/