On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:


It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on their
boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not allowed
except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can understand that
marine radios are not for shore to shore communications, but it only seems
natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and ship to shore comms.

The magic reasoning is that if you're on a boat or ship, then you are on
the water, and the marine band would then apply. You may need it for
emergency, or talking to other boats. I'm sure you used to have to be
licensed in order to have a Marine band license, so things have changed.
Indeed, it was only about the late sixties that the VHF Marine band came
into existence, before that you had to use the 2 to 3MHz Marine band, with
much longer antennas and I think more serious licensing requirements. The
VHF Marine band gave a lot more boaters the use of radio, and some of
that was because in putting the band at higher frequencies, the range
was limited, so more people could make use of the allocation. And about
that time, the equipment on the HF marine band got fancier and more
expensive, precisely to make better use of that allocation.

But, if anyone could get a marine band radio and use it from shore, what's
to keep them from just using it as a general radio band? The allocation
is for marine use, yet if anyone could use a radio for the band from
shore, then they might use it for any purpose.

That's the difference, it's now easy to use the radio from a boat, where
the band is intended for, and difficult to use from shore since you need
to justify that you actually will be using it for ship to shore use.

There is every need for a boat to have a radio, no need for everyone on
shore to have a radio, so the licensing is restrictive. Likely not as
restrictive as you perceive it, but still there to weed out the people who
might wish to use it for other things.

Michael

On Tue, 3 Sep 2013, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

In article ,
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes:
rickman wrote:
Yes, I am in the US. The radio will be used to support marine
communications which is legal by my understanding.

Not unless you have a license. Otherwise you risk a $10,000 fine.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...ship_stations#
Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land


Am I the only one who doesn't think a kayak on the Chesapeake would
be considered "a ship" and that none of this is relevant to what
he wants to do? Seems like a task for GMRS to me.

I've looked at kayak magazines from time to time, and I've seen ads for
Marine band walkie talkies in them, so I'd say it's suitable.

This isn't the old days, when "marine band" meant 2 to 3MHz, a long
antenna and expensive and bulky equipment. The addition of the VHF marine
band was to make it more accessible. The commercial ships stayed at HF
(and paid the money to make the transition to SSB), but a lot of pleasure
boaters got radio as a result of the VHF marine band. Now it's even
simpler, you apparently don't need a license. A kayaker might have as
much need for radio as a yacht, and solid state has made it easy, a hand
held so you don't need a permanent installation or high cost.

Yes, other services probably would work here, they don't have restrictions
agains use on the water.

But, I was just near a lock a few weeks ago, and while I don't think the
boats were using radio to contact the lock, I would assume the lock has
marine band radio installed. So a kayaker coming along (and I've seen
taht there) wouldn't have the ability to contact the lock if they had CB
or GMRS or FRS or MURS, but if they had a cheap VHF Marine band handheld,
they could, and the fact that they don't need a license anymore for use in
the boat would seem to indicate this is completely valid.

Michael

In article ple.org,
Michael Black writes:
On Tue, 3 Sep 2013, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

In article ,
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes:
rickman wrote:
Yes, I am in the US. The radio will be used to support marine
communications which is legal by my understanding.

Not unless you have a license. Otherwise you risk a $10,000 fine.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...ship_stations#
Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land


Am I the only one who doesn't think a kayak on the Chesapeake would
be considered "a ship" and that none of this is relevant to what
he wants to do? Seems like a task for GMRS to me.

I've looked at kayak magazines from time to time, and I've seen ads for
Marine band walkie talkies in them, so I'd say it's suitable.

And i can show oyu hiking magazines with ads for aircraft ELT beacons
for hikers to carry in case they get lost. Don't confue reality with
marketing or sales. Remember, for most of this stuff, selling it isn't
illegal, using it for the advertised purpose is.

kayakers may be able to use a radio, but I hardly expect that makes them
a "ship". Even the navy has vehicles much larger than kayaks that are
craft and not ships.


This isn't the old days, when "marine band" meant 2 to 3MHz, a long
antenna and expensive and bulky equipment. The addition of the VHF marine
band was to make it more accessible. The commercial ships stayed at HF
(and paid the money to make the transition to SSB), but a lot of pleasure
boaters got radio as a result of the VHF marine band. Now it's even
simpler, you apparently don't need a license. A kayaker might have as
much need for radio

Having kayaked, I don't seriously think so, but I'll let you have that one.

as a yacht, and solid state has made it easy, a hand
held so you don't need a permanent installation or high cost.

Yes, other services probably would work here, they don't have restrictions
agains use on the water.

Like cellphones.


But, I was just near a lock a few weeks ago, and while I don't think the
boats were using radio to contact the lock, I would assume the lock has
marine band radio installed. So a kayaker coming along (and I've seen
taht there) wouldn't have the ability to contact the lock if they had CB
or GMRS or FRS or MURS, but if they had a cheap VHF Marine band handheld,
they could, and the fact that they don't need a license anymore for use in
the boat would seem to indicate this is completely valid.


Well, as far as I know it costs money to traverse a lock on a real
waterway (like the St. Lawrence) so the kayaker is going to have
to get out and talk to the lock guys cause I doubt he has an account
like a shipping company would. Personally, I can't imagine sharing a
lock with one of those big ships in something as small as a kayak
and I doubt they let you have the lock to yourself.

In any event what the original poster wants to do just isn't legal
and all the grousing about why not isn't going to change that.

Cellphones still look like the most practical to me.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
| and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include std.disclaimer.h

On 9/5/2013 3:20 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
In article ple.org,
Michael Black writes:
I've looked at kayak magazines from time to time, and I've seen ads for
Marine band walkie talkies in them, so I'd say it's suitable.

And i can show oyu hiking magazines with ads for aircraft ELT beacons
for hikers to carry in case they get lost. Don't confue reality with
marketing or sales. Remember, for most of this stuff, selling it isn't
illegal, using it for the advertised purpose is.


Are you sure these are aircraft ELT's? There are personal ones also,
made especially for hikers. They are perfectly legal.

kayakers may be able to use a radio, but I hardly expect that makes them
a "ship". Even the navy has vehicles much larger than kayaks that are
craft and not ships.


That doesn't mean they can't use marine radios. There are lots of
people who have small fishing boats (i.e. 21') which (legally) have
marine radios. I don't think those are considered "ships".


This isn't the old days, when "marine band" meant 2 to 3MHz, a long
antenna and expensive and bulky equipment. The addition of the VHF marine
band was to make it more accessible. The commercial ships stayed at HF
(and paid the money to make the transition to SSB), but a lot of pleasure
boaters got radio as a result of the VHF marine band. Now it's even
simpler, you apparently don't need a license. A kayaker might have as
much need for radio

Having kayaked, I don't seriously think so, but I'll let you have that one.


I can see where a kayaker could have a need for a radio. The biggest
problem I could see is keeping the radio dry.

snip




But, I was just near a lock a few weeks ago, and while I don't think the
boats were using radio to contact the lock, I would assume the lock has
marine band radio installed. So a kayaker coming along (and I've seen
taht there) wouldn't have the ability to contact the lock if they had CB
or GMRS or FRS or MURS, but if they had a cheap VHF Marine band handheld,
they could, and the fact that they don't need a license anymore for use in
the boat would seem to indicate this is completely valid.


Well, as far as I know it costs money to traverse a lock on a real
waterway (like the St. Lawrence) so the kayaker is going to have
to get out and talk to the lock guys cause I doubt he has an account
like a shipping company would. Personally, I can't imagine sharing a
lock with one of those big ships in something as small as a kayak
and I doubt they let you have the lock to yourself.


It depends on the lock (and the waterway). Some do not charge for small
craft, others do.

In any event what the original poster wants to do just isn't legal
and all the grousing about why not isn't going to change that.

Cellphones still look like the most practical to me.

bill


If the cellphone service around Kent Island is solid, then I would agree
with you. I know it is good along Route 50, but haven't ventured that
far off of it. And I've definitely not gone around the island in a
kayak or any other boat

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 9/5/2013 5:31 AM, Jeff wrote:

Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but
didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the
licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band. There
seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless
you pass a tougher test.

It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not
allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications,
but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and
ship to shore comms.


You cannot operate in the marine VHF band with a ham licence.

(the talk about disaster situations just clouds the issue as anyone can
legally use anything just about anything under those conditions
regardless of a ham licence or not).

The restriction on ship to shore use in the marine band was there
originally to protect the revenue of the commercial coast stations.
However, a licence is still required for a shore station of any type.

You *might* be able to get a shore licence if you say that you are
providing safety cover for the kayaks.

CB or one of the other licence free allocations such as MURS or FRS
mighty be your best bet, but of course you will not be able to talk to
the Coastguard or other vessels.

Thanks for your advice. I will look into this deeper. It just seems so
strange to have a marine radio band that doesn't allow communications to
shore other than a few specific commercial facilities. I guess that is
why there is no one monitoring channel 16 here at lake Anna. There are
only a small handful of marinas and they aren't located so as to cover
the whole lake anyway. I don't think the police monitor marine VHF
because they don't regularly patrol. But the next time I see one I will
ask them about it.

I'm relatively near the center of the lake and so not badly positioned
to cover a large hunk of it if my antenna is high enough. I'd be
willing to put up a reasonable tower for this.. and who knows, a ham
antenna or two might just appear on it some day.

--

Rick

On 9/5/2013 9:16 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/5/2013 4:37 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/4/2013 12:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
rickman wrote:

So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial
unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two
weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe
would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said,
I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in
monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an
option for next year...


As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in your
truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other
receiver in a vehicle.

A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them, and
a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If someone is
in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help.

Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other hams
on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you
to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very
often
misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it.

The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship was
going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or
speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake.

If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a cell
phone,
etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham bands.

Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but
didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the
licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band. There
seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless
you pass a tougher test.

It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not
allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications,
but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and
ship to shore comms.


Hams have frequencies all over the place - including VHF, but a ham
license only allows you to use the ham bands. Other bands have other
license requirements.

And yes, the marine band licenses are very restrictive, but for a very
good reason - there are a limited number of channels available, and they
are meant for ship business. The FCC doesn't want everyone and their
brother to use it to chat with the family/friends back on shore; in
busier areas the channels would quickly become too crowded to be usable.
That's why it is limited to shore stations providing services to ships.

Maybe your best bet is to just use cell phones. I would think coverage
around Kent island should be OK.

Lol, if cell phones were remotely practical they would be used. We
carry them on board, but never count on them working... hmmm, sounds a
lot like VHF!

Your concerns with the usage of marine VHF is a bit pedantic. If you
monitor channel 16 in that area 90% of the traffic is, "I caught a large
one, start the grill and chill some beer". It doesn't seem to cause any
problems. I think you over estimate how many ships are out there. It's
not like trucks on the highway, "Breaker, breaker 19..."

Part of the reason for using VHF in kayaks is because that is the type
of radio actually designed for that sort of use. So there are any
number of features built in such as weather warnings, etc. But the main
reason is that if you need help and you use your VHF, you are likely to
get a response from someone very close by who can actually *help* you.
The goal is not to communicate with one person you are kayaking with or
even me on the shore. Other types of radios are just not realistic.

--

Rick

On 9/5/2013 1:47 PM, Michael Black wrote:
On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:


It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is
not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore
communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for
ship to ship and ship to shore comms.

The magic reasoning is that if you're on a boat or ship, then you are on
the water, and the marine band would then apply. You may need it for
emergency, or talking to other boats. I'm sure you used to have to be
licensed in order to have a Marine band license, so things have changed.
Indeed, it was only about the late sixties that the VHF Marine band came
into existence, before that you had to use the 2 to 3MHz Marine band,
with much longer antennas and I think more serious licensing
requirements. The VHF Marine band gave a lot more boaters the use of
radio, and some of that was because in putting the band at higher
frequencies, the range was limited, so more people could make use of the
allocation. And about that time, the equipment on the HF marine band got
fancier and more expensive, precisely to make better use of that
allocation.

But, if anyone could get a marine band radio and use it from shore,
what's to keep them from just using it as a general radio band? The
allocation is for marine use, yet if anyone could use a radio for the
band from shore, then they might use it for any purpose.

That's the difference, it's now easy to use the radio from a boat, where
the band is intended for, and difficult to use from shore since you need
to justify that you actually will be using it for ship to shore use.

Faulty reasoning. I can use the marine band radio from shore now. The
only thing stopping me is the law. Last year I was told it was ok to
use it from shore if I was communicating with a boat (which makes
perfect sense), now I find that is *not* the case. During our trip I
heard any number of conversations between boats and what appeared to be
their homes. There was no congestion, no interference of the airways,
just ship to shore communications when useful.


There is every need for a boat to have a radio, no need for everyone on
shore to have a radio, so the licensing is restrictive. Likely not as
restrictive as you perceive it, but still there to weed out the people
who might wish to use it for other things.

The utility of a radio, especially in emergency situations, is greatly
diminished if you can't reach people on the shore. My understanding is
that the range of these radios is *very* short if you are close to the
water. There were kayaks less than 4 miles away who I could not raise
on the radio and I was likely the closest point of assistance. If they
had needed to call for help, who exactly would they be able to reach?

In the sea kayaking community VHF radio is both regarded as an important
safety device because of the importance of communications and as a joke
because of how often it communicates with no out outside of your paddle
group. I don't think it is unreasonable for shore stations to be able
to monitor VHF and respond in an emergency situation or to prevent one.
In the situation at Lake Anna, if I am not allowed to have a VHF
license for my shore station, then what is the use of having a VHF radio
in a boat?

--

Rick

On 9/5/2013 11:57 AM, Bill Ogden wrote:
Please understand that a "band" (such as VHF band) is a collective term for
a large range of frequencies. The FCC assigns different frequencies (or
ranges of frequencies) to different services. The VHF "band" terminology is
generally used for the 30 - 300 Mhz range. Within this range there are
frequencies assigned for amateurs, police, fire, marine, TV, commercial FM,
and so forth. In general, these assignments do not overlap. There are VHF
frequencies assigned for amateur use (such as 144-148 Mhz). There are
different "spot" frequencies or "channels" (as opposed to ranges) assigned
for marine usage, and so forth.

Marine users must have a "type approved" radio and it must be used on the
assigned frequencies (channels). Amateurs, in the general case, do not
require type-approved radios, but they must ensure that their radios operate
in the assigned amateur frequency ranges. An amateur could, in the general
case, operate a marine-type radio in an amateur frequency range but not vice
versa.

There is some informality about the terminology. The 144-148 Mhz amateur
allocation is usually named the 2-meter band. It is a VHF band. The
police/fire/etc frequencies in the 150-160 Mhz range are often collectively
known as "VHF". There are VHF television channels (although these are going
away in favor of UHF channels).

In marine use you might hear "VHF" as opposed to "HF" (or "SSB"). HF is
High Freuqency, generally considered to be anything in the 3 - 30 MHz range.
Generally, VHF is for local (more or less line of sight) communication and
HF is for much more distant communication. There are amateur frequency
ranges in HF, such as the "80-meter band, 3.5-3.0 MHz, or the 20-meter band
at 14-14.35 Mhz. There are a variety of marine assignments in the HF range.

Using VHF is generally simple if you are in the right distance range. You
simply press the button and talk. Using HF is considerably more complex due
the way HF radio waves interact with the ionosphere.

Amateur licenses and marine licenses are completely different animals and do
not overlap in any way.

Have you thought about CB? It is inexpensive and might cover the distance
ranges you are talking about. One problem is that there are some very odd
animals that play with CB and can occupy some of the 40 available channels.
However, in less dense areas you can probably productively use one of the
higher channel numbers. The CB "band" has 40 channels around 27 MHz. This
is still "HF" but is almost "VHF". On most days, the communication is
somehwat more than line of sight -- generally more than VHF--, but not large
distances. However, when the "band" is "open" there can be international
communication and considerable interference.

Bill
W2WO

Thanks for your response, I am learning a lot from this discussion.

It is not realistic to expect the sea kayaking community to change from
using VHF to CB to suit my needs. Marine VHF is what I need to use.

I will likely pursue the shore license and see if I can get something
for here at Lake Anna. I'm still not clear on whether I can get a shore
license to put a radio in my truck. Also, the only official info I have
seen on this refers to "hand held" radios. My goal is to use a mounted
radio with an antenna which will get better range than a hand held.

We'll see how it goes. Certainly I won't get this ironed out in time
for this year, but maybe next.

--

Rick

On 9/5/2013 1:40 PM, Michael Black wrote:
On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:


But an Amateur Radio license allows you to operate Amateur Radios - no
marine or any others. That's why I say everyone in control of a radio
(including on the kayaks) would have to have a ham license (and call
sign). But we have lots of frequencies available and lots of options.

You can find more information at www.arrl.org.

Hmmm... maybe I don't understand the amateur license. The need is for
using marine band radios, not just any radios that can be found. That
is not going to change. Are you saying that an amateur license won't
allow the use of a marine band radio in the context I have been
describing?

You're the one who started this by posting to an amateur radio
newsgroup, and then made it worse by adding other newsgroups in the
rec.radio.amateur.* hierarchy.

YOu say you are having problems getting licensed for the Marine band, so
people are offering information on other services that would be simply.
Amateur radio isn't "simpler" but for some uses the fact that it is
relatively wide open means it can be valuable. FRS and CB don't require
any licensing, cellphones are common nowadays, GMRS and MURS have
relatively simple license requirements.

If you "need" to stick with the Marine Band, then you need to offer up
reasons why.

Michael

Your response comes across as a bit rude. I don't actually "need" to
offer up justification for my need. But the point is that I don't have
control over what the rest of the kayaking community uses. They are
using marine VHF for a number of reasons and I am trying to work within
that restriction.

Actually if you go back and read the thread I started asking about
equipment, not realizing I had a licensing problem. I was thinking of
what I would need to make this work in my vehicle and in a home.

I hope this thread doesn't offend you in any way. Since this is not
strictly amateur radio I am asking about, would it be better to label it
as off topic?

--

Rick

In article ,
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/5/2013 3:20 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

And i can show oyu hiking magazines with ads for aircraft ELT beacons
for hikers to carry in case they get lost. Don't confue reality with
marketing or sales. Remember, for most of this stuff, selling it isn't
illegal, using it for the advertised purpose is.

Are you sure these are aircraft ELT's? There are personal ones also,
made especially for hikers. They are perfectly legal.

Yeah, it's surprising if companies are trying to sell ELTs to hikers
given that Spot units were designed especially for hikers and, as you
say, are perfectly legal for them to use. I suppose there could be
some ELT companies that don't want to cede the market to Spot and
thus are continuing to try to sell to hikers, but it's unfortunate
if magazines are letting those run ads for products knowing full well
that they'll be used illegally.


Patty