On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:

On 9/5/2013 11:35 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

That's just it. You don't fit into any of the categories for which a
license is issued. "Providing services" does not mean giving weather
reports to your pals.

They don't need weather reports, they have access to that themselves.


You've missed the point.

Let's recap:

1. You want to use VHF Marine because everybody else is doing it.
2. You don't appear to fit into any of the requirements for a VHF Marine
license.
3. Unlicensed operation, or operation outside what is permitted by your
license, are both illegal.

Combine those three things and you have quite the quandry. Your peers in
the hobby are using VHF marine with some degree of success and you want to
be able to communicate with them. If your intended communications are
anything like those of your friends, then they, too, are likely operating
in a manner that runs afoul of the law.

Remember, just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it legal.

There are a number of radio services that might fit your needs, which have
been discussed elsewhere in this thread, including MURS, GMRS, FRS, and, I
believe to a lesser extent, amateur radio. However, none of those will
grant you the type of interoperability you desire.

If you still have your heart set on using VHF Marine, the absolute BEST
thing you could do is to pick up the phone and call the FCC.
1-888-CALL-FCC. You can get in touch with someone there who is familiar
with the laws surrounding VHF Marine radio licensing and they will be able
to tell you whether you meet the requirements and exactly what type of
license to get.

Good luck, and have fun on Lake Anna. I wish I were there!

Steve in Richmond

On 9/6/2013 3:37 PM, Steve Crow wrote:

On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:

On 9/5/2013 11:35 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

That's just it. You don't fit into any of the categories for which a
license is issued. "Providing services" does not mean giving weather
reports to your pals.

They don't need weather reports, they have access to that themselves.


You've missed the point.

Let's recap:

1. You want to use VHF Marine because everybody else is doing it.
2. You don't appear to fit into any of the requirements for a VHF Marine
license.
3. Unlicensed operation, or operation outside what is permitted by your
license, are both illegal.

You are making assumptions. Why is this such a big deal to you? I will
let the FCC decide if I can get a license. Why are some of you getting
your knickers in a knot about it?


Combine those three things and you have quite the quandry. Your peers in
the hobby are using VHF marine with some degree of success and you want
to be able to communicate with them. If your intended communications are
anything like those of your friends, then they, too, are likely
operating in a manner that runs afoul of the law.

Can you be specific here. I have no idea what you are talking about.


Remember, just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it legal.

There are a number of radio services that might fit your needs, which
have been discussed elsewhere in this thread, including MURS, GMRS, FRS,
and, I believe to a lesser extent, amateur radio. However, none of those
will grant you the type of interoperability you desire.

You left out VHF which is the one of choice. All I need to do is
justify the appropriate license.


If you still have your heart set on using VHF Marine, the absolute BEST
thing you could do is to pick up the phone and call the FCC.
1-888-CALL-FCC. You can get in touch with someone there who is familiar
with the laws surrounding VHF Marine radio licensing and they will be
able to tell you whether you meet the requirements and exactly what type
of license to get.

Good luck, and have fun on Lake Anna. I wish I were there!

Hey, you are welcome to come up sometime. We should be here this
weekend. Do you kayak or canoe?

--

Rick

On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:

On 9/6/2013 3:37 PM, Steve Crow wrote:

On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:

On 9/5/2013 11:35 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

That's just it. You don't fit into any of the categories for which a
license is issued. "Providing services" does not mean giving weather
reports to your pals.

They don't need weather reports, they have access to that themselves.


You've missed the point.

Let's recap:

1. You want to use VHF Marine because everybody else is doing it.
2. You don't appear to fit into any of the requirements for a VHF Marine
license.
3. Unlicensed operation, or operation outside what is permitted by your
license, are both illegal.

You are making assumptions. Why is this such a big deal to you? I will let
the FCC decide if I can get a license. Why are some of you getting your
knickers in a knot about it?

Forgive me if it got lost in the noise, which is quite possible, but I
haven't seen where you have spelled out exactly what the intended
application is, so I'm forced to make assumptions.

As for why we're getting worked up about it? Personally, I'm not, but
based on the responses you've received from others in this group, I can
see where you might assume that I am. Let me attempt to explain some
of the, ehem.. hostility?

Amateur radio operators generally take great pride in their licenses and
the privileges afforded by that license. Likewise, they (we) generally
have a great respect for radio licensing, rules, and regulations, because
one component of the amateur radio service is self-policing of the
regulations and holding each other accountable for operating not just
within the letter of the law but with a high engineering standard.

As a result, when someone such as yourself comes along and has a genuine
concern and truly wants help with something he doesn't understand, too
many amateur radio operators ("hams") get up on their high horse and see
it as an opportunity to get all preachy and play FCC Police.

I don't play that game.

But that's why you're getting some of the responses you have.

Remember, too much of the ham radio crowd falls fully within the "cranky
old fart" category. Sadly, I'll be there myself in another 30 years or
so!



Combine those three things and you have quite the quandry. Your peers in
the hobby are using VHF marine with some degree of success and you want
to be able to communicate with them. If your intended communications are
anything like those of your friends, then they, too, are likely
operating in a manner that runs afoul of the law.

Can you be specific here. I have no idea what you are talking about.


Basically, the way I understand what you're after is a way to talk to your
friends/peers/etc within your kayaking hobby that are already using VHF
marine radio. Which comes across as an assumption on your part that
because others are doing it, it must be legal, which is incorrect.


Remember, just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it legal.

There are a number of radio services that might fit your needs, which
have been discussed elsewhere in this thread, including MURS, GMRS, FRS,
and, I believe to a lesser extent, amateur radio. However, none of those
will grant you the type of interoperability you desire.

You left out VHF which is the one of choice. All I need to do is justify the
appropriate license.


No. I didn't. VHF is not a radio service. As was explained elsewhere in
this lengthy thread, VHF refers to the frequency band. There are three
major bands -- HF, VHF, and UHF. Within each band there are a number of
"radio services" -- each with a specific intended application and its
corresponding licensing requirements and operating regulations.

You don't get a "VHF license." You get a license for a radio service that
falls within the VHF bands, and for your purposes that could be amateur
radio (which, among other bands, has frequencies in VHF) and MURS (which
is VHF). The VHF Marine radio service falls within VHF, but VHF itself is
not a radio service.

That might be a part of the big misunderstanding here. Let me know if I
can clarify further.


If you still have your heart set on using VHF Marine, the absolute BEST
thing you could do is to pick up the phone and call the FCC.
1-888-CALL-FCC. You can get in touch with someone there who is familiar
with the laws surrounding VHF Marine radio licensing and they will be
able to tell you whether you meet the requirements and exactly what type
of license to get.

Good luck, and have fun on Lake Anna. I wish I were there!

Hey, you are welcome to come up sometime. We should be here this weekend.
Do you kayak or canoe?

I've always wanted to, but it's one of many things on my very long list of
things to try!


--

Rick

On 9/6/2013 4:21 PM, Steve Crow wrote:

Amateur radio operators generally take great pride in their licenses and
the privileges afforded by that license. Likewise, they (we) generally
have a great respect for radio licensing, rules, and regulations,
because one component of the amateur radio service is self-policing of
the regulations and holding each other accountable for operating not
just within the letter of the law but with a high engineering standard.

As a result, when someone such as yourself comes along and has a genuine
concern and truly wants help with something he doesn't understand, too
many amateur radio operators ("hams") get up on their high horse and see
it as an opportunity to get all preachy and play FCC Police.


Steve,

Please allow me to clarify. I (and others) have tried to help him by
showing him the FCC regulations regarding the marine radio band, and
offering alternatives. From the regulations, he does not fit into any
of the categories regarding land stations on the marine band. He claims
he provides "services" to boaters, but has never explained what those
"services" are. All he's said is he wants to talk to his kayaking friends.

Then he argues that he *should* be able to do it, for various reasons
completely unrelated to the actual rules and regs.

I guess my mistake here was to try and provide a rational explanation to
him as to why the FCC has those rules. He doesn't care; he just thinks
he should be able to chat with his friends who are out kayaking.

Finally I just got fed up with it. I no longer care about trying to
help him. I'll just wait for him to get a $10K fine from the FCC and
come crying back here as to how unfair it is.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 9/6/2013 4:21 PM, Steve Crow wrote:

On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:

On 9/6/2013 3:37 PM, Steve Crow wrote:

On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:

On 9/5/2013 11:35 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

That's just it. You don't fit into any of the categories for which a
license is issued. "Providing services" does not mean giving weather
reports to your pals.

They don't need weather reports, they have access to that themselves.


You've missed the point.

Let's recap:

1. You want to use VHF Marine because everybody else is doing it.
2. You don't appear to fit into any of the requirements for a VHF Marine
license.
3. Unlicensed operation, or operation outside what is permitted by your
license, are both illegal.

You are making assumptions. Why is this such a big deal to you? I will
let the FCC decide if I can get a license. Why are some of you getting
your knickers in a knot about it?

Forgive me if it got lost in the noise, which is quite possible, but I
haven't seen where you have spelled out exactly what the intended
application is, so I'm forced to make assumptions.

As for why we're getting worked up about it? Personally, I'm not, but
based on the responses you've received from others in this group, I can
see where you might assume that I am. Let me attempt to explain some
of the, ehem.. hostility?

Amateur radio operators generally take great pride in their licenses and
the privileges afforded by that license. Likewise, they (we) generally
have a great respect for radio licensing, rules, and regulations,
because one component of the amateur radio service is self-policing of
the regulations and holding each other accountable for operating not
just within the letter of the law but with a high engineering standard.

As a result, when someone such as yourself comes along and has a genuine
concern and truly wants help with something he doesn't understand, too
many amateur radio operators ("hams") get up on their high horse and see
it as an opportunity to get all preachy and play FCC Police.

I don't play that game.

But that's why you're getting some of the responses you have.

Yes, I can see that, thanks for the rational response.


Remember, too much of the ham radio crowd falls fully within the "cranky
old fart" category. Sadly, I'll be there myself in another 30 years
or so!

Yeah, well I *am* a cranky old fart too, hence my responses... There is
no point in arguing something like this. I will very shortly just quit
responding to the other cranks.


Combine those three things and you have quite the quandry. Your peers in
the hobby are using VHF marine with some degree of success and you want
to be able to communicate with them. If your intended communications are
anything like those of your friends, then they, too, are likely
operating in a manner that runs afoul of the law.

Can you be specific here. I have no idea what you are talking about.


Basically, the way I understand what you're after is a way to talk to
your friends/peers/etc within your kayaking hobby that are already using
VHF marine radio. Which comes across as an assumption on your part that
because others are doing it, it must be legal, which is incorrect.

The info on the FCC site says to me that kayakers *are* using the
"marine VHF" radios legally. I don't know why anyone seems to think
they aren't.


Remember, just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it legal.

There are a number of radio services that might fit your needs, which
have been discussed elsewhere in this thread, including MURS, GMRS, FRS,
and, I believe to a lesser extent, amateur radio. However, none of those
will grant you the type of interoperability you desire.

You left out VHF which is the one of choice. All I need to do is
justify the appropriate license.


No. I didn't. VHF is not a radio service. As was explained elsewhere in
this lengthy thread, VHF refers to the frequency band. There are three
major bands -- HF, VHF, and UHF. Within each band there are a number of
"radio services" -- each with a specific intended application and its
corresponding licensing requirements and operating regulations.

You don't get a "VHF license." You get a license for a radio service
that falls within the VHF bands, and for your purposes that could be
amateur radio (which, among other bands, has frequencies in VHF) and
MURS (which is VHF). The VHF Marine radio service falls within VHF, but
VHF itself is not a radio service.

That might be a part of the big misunderstanding here. Let me know if I
can clarify further.

I'm not sure what your point is exactly. I think you are being a bit
pedantic about my use of VHF as shorthand for "VHF Marine Radio" which I
thought was clear from context at this point. So for the record, I will
say I understand the difference.

I admit that at one point when some were suggesting that I could get a
ham license I didn't realize that would not allow me to talk to the
"marine VHF" radios legally. I now understand that and am not pursuing
the amateur license discussion further.


If you still have your heart set on using VHF Marine, the absolute BEST
thing you could do is to pick up the phone and call the FCC.
1-888-CALL-FCC. You can get in touch with someone there who is familiar
with the laws surrounding VHF Marine radio licensing and they will be
able to tell you whether you meet the requirements and exactly what type
of license to get.

Good luck, and have fun on Lake Anna. I wish I were there!

Hey, you are welcome to come up sometime. We should be here this
weekend. Do you kayak or canoe?

I've always wanted to, but it's one of many things on my very long list
of things to try!

You don't even have to come up here. We sometimes go to Richmond to
paddle the James. There is a very active meetup.com kayaking group
called Virgina Paddlers. They have one or two fla****er kayak trips
near Richmond every week in season. It is pretty easy to borrow
equipment most of the time. Kayakers tend to be a very friendly and
generous crowd.

--

Rick

On 9/3/2013 2:57 PM, David Platt wrote:
What follows is just my own subjective "take" on the issue... please
don't treat it as gospel.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio.

Broadly-speaking, you'll have a choice of antennas which do, or do
not, require a good ground plane to operate (quarter-wave monopoles
being an example of those which do, and end-fed half-wave antennas
being an example of those which do not). A lot of boat-mount marine
VHF antennas seem to be of the ground-independent type - they can be
mounted up alongside the mast, or connected to a fiberglass hull, and
will still work well.

There's a lot to be said for buying a "designed for boat mounting"
antenna even for shore or vehicle mounting... such antennas will
probably be made to withstand salt-spray corrosion, and will live
longer than an "inland" antenna.

This is very useful info, thanks. I had not seen any antennas that
require a ground plane, but I had only spent one evening looking at
equipment. I think I had seen 8 foot antennas described as 5/8
wavelength IIRC, and other antennas which were shorter. None said
anything about a ground plane and I didn't see anything on the antenna
other than the vertical pole.


For mounting such on a vehicle... plan to mount it up above the
roofline rather than down at the bumper. For hatchbacks, a trunk-lip
mount can work quite well. Mounting to a roof rack is also a
possibility. Depending on the antenna height and vehicle type, it's
also possible to drill a hole in the roof or side, and install a mount
through the hole (maybe not the best idea if you plan to sell the
vehicle anytime soon). If you use a ground-dependent antenna, the
mount will need to be connected directly to the chassis sheet-metal.

I aw aware that height is important. I was thinking of mounting on the
back of the cab, beside the window, just below the roofline. I might
also rig up some sort of pole which can be raised and lowered to get
more height. In the use I am thinking of the vehicle would be
stationary for an hour or two and then moved to track the kayaks.


course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig
deeper into the specs to find?

Long-term ruggedness and reliability is an important factor in marine
radios, and it's probably one that you're going to find in the specs.
Reading on-line and magazine reviews, and talking to dealers (and
users) about problems, and the return rate, is probably a good idea.

I assume you meant "*not* going to find in the specs". Since I am blown
out of the water for this season, I will have time to do the research.


Standard Horizon, and Icom, seem to be two of the big-name players in
the "commercial grade" marine radio business.

Those seem to be the big names in hand held units from what I have heard.


As to specs... one thing to look for is receiver selectivity. In a
"crowded" RF environment (such as the Chesapeake bay and its shores)
there's going to be a very great deal of transmission going on around
you, including full-power (25-watt) transmissions from shore stations
and boats. A strong signal on one channel can saturate a radio's
receiver, and block out weaker signals on other channels
("desensitization"). The better the strong-signal handling (dynamic
range) and adjacent-channel selectivity a radio has, the better it
will be able to receive distant signals in the face of a strong local
transmission.

Yes, I am familiar with selectivity and sensitivity.


Some of the higher-end marine mobile radios have a "dual operating
position" feature. You can connect a second microphone (often with
its own built-in controls and display) located well away from the main
radio, and operate the radio from the second location. This can be a
useful feature both on boats (e.g. put the second station up on a
conning tower) and in shore installations.

Yes, that can be useful, but pricey. I saw radios for $120 and I saw
wired remote controls for over $200. Go figure! Do they have any
wireless remotes? That would allow me to mount a receiver in the
vehicle and park it on a hill where it gets better reception while I can
be on the beach.


I haven't seen any marine mobile radios which have detachable
faceplates (i.e. intended for remote mounting).

For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more
clear than another radio?

Sensitivity, and selectivity are what you're looking for. The
sensitivity number will tend to dominate the performance under true
weak-signal conditions - that is, when there are no strong
transmissions on other channels in your neighborhood. The selectivity
number becomes important when there are other radios transmitting
nearby.

Yes, I used to be more into radios and had forgotten those terms.


What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok?

Depends on the radio. Some radios have good internal
speakers... although I suspect this is not terribly easy to achieve if
the radio has to be water-resistant... and some are just terrible.
The more compact the radio, the worse its internal speaker is likely
to sound (I think).

All the radios I have seen *are* water proof. Not much point to having
a radio in a boat if it isn't. Your boat turns over and your radio gets
wet... not much good to you then.


I'd be surprised if most mobile-type marine radios can't hook up to
external speakers, so you can always add one on if the built-in
speaker is not adequate for your needs. Bi-amping and subwoofers are
optional :-)

You laugh...


Other issues:

- Do make sure you buy a radio which has been fully certificated
for operation under FCC Part 80 regulations. Buying radios
intended for other services (land mobile, amateur, etc.) and
reprogramming them for the maritime channels is *not* a good
idea... it's legal to do so, but *not* legal to transmit with such
radios. Big fines are possible if you're caught.

Everything I've seen so far was 100% marine VHF.


- On the (somewhat noisy) issue of licensing... as I understand it,
you will not need any license at all if all you are going to do is
"monitor" (receive only)... at least, that's true around the
Chesapeake, which is entirely US territory and subject to US
regulations. The moment you transmit, though, the rules are
different. Since you're talking about a shore/vehicle station,
you'd have to have a "private coast" or "marine utility" station
license, and these are only available to a limited category of
people: see 47 CFR 80.501(a) for a list of qualifying categories.
Possibly (a)(8) would apply in your situation: "a person servicing
or supplying vessels other than commercial transport vessels"?

Yes, that is what I came up with from another post. But I think that
limits you to the use of a hand held unit, which seems very bizarre.
I'm sure there are reasons for the FCC regs, they just aren't sharing
what they are.

--

Rick

On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:

-- snip --

Forgive me if it got lost in the noise, which is quite possible, but I
haven't seen where you have spelled out exactly what the intended
application is, so I'm forced to make assumptions.

As for why we're getting worked up about it? Personally, I'm not, but
based on the responses you've received from others in this group, I can
see where you might assume that I am. Let me attempt to explain some
of the, ehem.. hostility?

Amateur radio operators generally take great pride in their licenses and
the privileges afforded by that license. Likewise, they (we) generally
have a great respect for radio licensing, rules, and regulations,
because one component of the amateur radio service is self-policing of
the regulations and holding each other accountable for operating not
just within the letter of the law but with a high engineering standard.

As a result, when someone such as yourself comes along and has a genuine
concern and truly wants help with something he doesn't understand, too
many amateur radio operators ("hams") get up on their high horse and see
it as an opportunity to get all preachy and play FCC Police.

I don't play that game.

But that's why you're getting some of the responses you have.

Yes, I can see that, thanks for the rational response.


You're quite welcome.


Remember, too much of the ham radio crowd falls fully within the "cranky
old fart" category. Sadly, I'll be there myself in another 30 years
or so!

Yeah, well I *am* a cranky old fart too, hence my responses... There is no
point in arguing something like this. I will very shortly just quit
responding to the other cranks.


Combine those three things and you have quite the quandry. Your peers in
the hobby are using VHF marine with some degree of success and you want
to be able to communicate with them. If your intended communications are
anything like those of your friends, then they, too, are likely
operating in a manner that runs afoul of the law.

Can you be specific here. I have no idea what you are talking about.


Basically, the way I understand what you're after is a way to talk to
your friends/peers/etc within your kayaking hobby that are already using
VHF marine radio. Which comes across as an assumption on your part that
because others are doing it, it must be legal, which is incorrect.

The info on the FCC site says to me that kayakers *are* using the "marine
VHF" radios legally. I don't know why anyone seems to think they aren't.


I'm not in a position to decide that, not being well-versed in the
modern-day requirements of the VHF Marine radio service. My point was
that you, as the (prospective) license holder, are responsible for
operating within the FCC rules, and you can't necessarily base your
operating practice on the actions of others.

In fact, I dare say it's a pretty safe bet that a good chunk of the people
on the VHF Marine band aren't licensed at all. It's common within the
radio services where radio gear is readily accessible off-the-shelf,
particularly in retail stores. Illegal unlicensed use is rampant in GMRS,
and we also have problems with certain seasonal users (hunters) using
amateur radio gear in our bands without a license. It's likely going on
in the VHF Marine band, too.

Just be careful out there.


Remember, just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it legal.

There are a number of radio services that might fit your needs, which
have been discussed elsewhere in this thread, including MURS, GMRS, FRS,
and, I believe to a lesser extent, amateur radio. However, none of those
will grant you the type of interoperability you desire.

You left out VHF which is the one of choice. All I need to do is
justify the appropriate license.


No. I didn't. VHF is not a radio service. As was explained elsewhere in
this lengthy thread, VHF refers to the frequency band. There are three
major bands -- HF, VHF, and UHF. Within each band there are a number of
"radio services" -- each with a specific intended application and its
corresponding licensing requirements and operating regulations.

You don't get a "VHF license." You get a license for a radio service
that falls within the VHF bands, and for your purposes that could be
amateur radio (which, among other bands, has frequencies in VHF) and
MURS (which is VHF). The VHF Marine radio service falls within VHF, but
VHF itself is not a radio service.

That might be a part of the big misunderstanding here. Let me know if I
can clarify further.

I'm not sure what your point is exactly. I think you are being a bit
pedantic about my use of VHF as shorthand for "VHF Marine Radio" which I
thought was clear from context at this point. So for the record, I will say
I understand the difference.


Cool. I wanted to reiterate the difference because it is a pretty common
misunderstanding.

I admit that at one point when some were suggesting that I could get a ham
license I didn't realize that would not allow me to talk to the "marine VHF"
radios legally. I now understand that and am not pursuing the amateur
license discussion further.

Awesome. Now expect the rest of the folks here to run you out of the
amateur radio newsgroup.

On a more serious note, I'm always amazed that the response from so many
hams is to immediately suggest ham radio as the ultimate solution to any
communications dilemma, and quite often it is not. This was just one such
instance.

While there's no doubt it's an enjoyable hobby, and you'd probably get
some use out of it, it doesn't address your immediate needs.

(I was never a top performing sales guy at my last job. I wonder why?)


If you still have your heart set on using VHF Marine, the absolute BEST
thing you could do is to pick up the phone and call the FCC.
1-888-CALL-FCC. You can get in touch with someone there who is familiar
with the laws surrounding VHF Marine radio licensing and they will be
able to tell you whether you meet the requirements and exactly what type
of license to get.

Good luck, and have fun on Lake Anna. I wish I were there!

Hey, you are welcome to come up sometime. We should be here this
weekend. Do you kayak or canoe?

I've always wanted to, but it's one of many things on my very long list
of things to try!

You don't even have to come up here. We sometimes go to Richmond to paddle
the James. There is a very active meetup.com kayaking group called Virgina
Paddlers. They have one or two fla****er kayak trips near Richmond every
week in season. It is pretty easy to borrow equipment most of the time.
Kayakers tend to be a very friendly and generous crowd.

I'll likely end up sitting at home, on my gradually widening ass, watching
infomercials and eating frozen pizza... though it does sound appealing!

On 9/7/2013 12:11 AM, Steve Crow wrote:


On a more serious note, I'm always amazed that the response from so many
hams is to immediately suggest ham radio as the ultimate solution to any
communications dilemma, and quite often it is not. This was just one
such instance.

While there's no doubt it's an enjoyable hobby, and you'd probably get
some use out of it, it doesn't address your immediate needs.

(I was never a top performing sales guy at my last job. I wonder why?)


Two things:

1. What do you expect from an Amateur Radio related newsgroup?

2. Amateur radio is a perfect solution for him, except he's placing
additional, unnecessary constraints. He has multiple bands he can use,
can run much more power, and no restrictions on base or mobile usage.
The only restrictions are he can only talk to other licensed hams, and
cannot use it for business. I don't see the latter as a problem, from
what he's said.

But then you obviously don't know anything about ham radio, yet you are
giving your opinion on it.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 9/7/2013 12:11 AM, Steve Crow wrote:

On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:

-- snip --

Forgive me if it got lost in the noise, which is quite possible, but I
haven't seen where you have spelled out exactly what the intended
application is, so I'm forced to make assumptions.

As for why we're getting worked up about it? Personally, I'm not, but
based on the responses you've received from others in this group, I can
see where you might assume that I am. Let me attempt to explain some
of the, ehem.. hostility?

Amateur radio operators generally take great pride in their licenses and
the privileges afforded by that license. Likewise, they (we) generally
have a great respect for radio licensing, rules, and regulations,
because one component of the amateur radio service is self-policing of
the regulations and holding each other accountable for operating not
just within the letter of the law but with a high engineering standard.

As a result, when someone such as yourself comes along and has a genuine
concern and truly wants help with something he doesn't understand, too
many amateur radio operators ("hams") get up on their high horse and see
it as an opportunity to get all preachy and play FCC Police.

I don't play that game.

But that's why you're getting some of the responses you have.

Yes, I can see that, thanks for the rational response.


You're quite welcome.


Remember, too much of the ham radio crowd falls fully within the "cranky
old fart" category. Sadly, I'll be there myself in another 30 years
or so!

Yeah, well I *am* a cranky old fart too, hence my responses... There
is no point in arguing something like this. I will very shortly just
quit responding to the other cranks.


Combine those three things and you have quite the quandry. Your
peers in
the hobby are using VHF marine with some degree of success and you
want
to be able to communicate with them. If your intended
communications are
anything like those of your friends, then they, too, are likely
operating in a manner that runs afoul of the law.

Can you be specific here. I have no idea what you are talking about.


Basically, the way I understand what you're after is a way to talk to
your friends/peers/etc within your kayaking hobby that are already using
VHF marine radio. Which comes across as an assumption on your part that
because others are doing it, it must be legal, which is incorrect.

The info on the FCC site says to me that kayakers *are* using the
"marine VHF" radios legally. I don't know why anyone seems to think
they aren't.


I'm not in a position to decide that, not being well-versed in the
modern-day requirements of the VHF Marine radio service. My point was
that you, as the (prospective) license holder, are responsible for
operating within the FCC rules, and you can't necessarily base your
operating practice on the actions of others.

In fact, I dare say it's a pretty safe bet that a good chunk of the
people on the VHF Marine band aren't licensed at all. It's common within
the radio services where radio gear is readily accessible off-the-shelf,
particularly in retail stores. Illegal unlicensed use is rampant in
GMRS, and we also have problems with certain seasonal users (hunters)
using amateur radio gear in our bands without a license. It's likely
going on in the VHF Marine band, too.

Just be careful out there.

Yes, that is the current state of marine VHF. For certain users in
boats there is *no* licensing requirement. So unlicensed use is rampant
in marine VHF, but it isn't illegal.


Remember, just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it
legal.

There are a number of radio services that might fit your needs, which
have been discussed elsewhere in this thread, including MURS, GMRS,
FRS,
and, I believe to a lesser extent, amateur radio. However, none of
those
will grant you the type of interoperability you desire.

You left out VHF which is the one of choice. All I need to do is
justify the appropriate license.


No. I didn't. VHF is not a radio service. As was explained elsewhere in
this lengthy thread, VHF refers to the frequency band. There are three
major bands -- HF, VHF, and UHF. Within each band there are a number of
"radio services" -- each with a specific intended application and its
corresponding licensing requirements and operating regulations.

You don't get a "VHF license." You get a license for a radio service
that falls within the VHF bands, and for your purposes that could be
amateur radio (which, among other bands, has frequencies in VHF) and
MURS (which is VHF). The VHF Marine radio service falls within VHF, but
VHF itself is not a radio service.

That might be a part of the big misunderstanding here. Let me know if I
can clarify further.

I'm not sure what your point is exactly. I think you are being a bit
pedantic about my use of VHF as shorthand for "VHF Marine Radio" which
I thought was clear from context at this point. So for the record, I
will say I understand the difference.


Cool. I wanted to reiterate the difference because it is a pretty common
misunderstanding.

I admit that at one point when some were suggesting that I could get a
ham license I didn't realize that would not allow me to talk to the
"marine VHF" radios legally. I now understand that and am not pursuing
the amateur license discussion further.

Awesome. Now expect the rest of the folks here to run you out of the
amateur radio newsgroup.

On a more serious note, I'm always amazed that the response from so many
hams is to immediately suggest ham radio as the ultimate solution to any
communications dilemma, and quite often it is not. This was just one
such instance.

While there's no doubt it's an enjoyable hobby, and you'd probably get
some use out of it, it doesn't address your immediate needs.

(I was never a top performing sales guy at my last job. I wonder why?)


If you still have your heart set on using VHF Marine, the absolute
BEST
thing you could do is to pick up the phone and call the FCC.
1-888-CALL-FCC. You can get in touch with someone there who is
familiar
with the laws surrounding VHF Marine radio licensing and they will be
able to tell you whether you meet the requirements and exactly what
type
of license to get.

Good luck, and have fun on Lake Anna. I wish I were there!

Hey, you are welcome to come up sometime. We should be here this
weekend. Do you kayak or canoe?

I've always wanted to, but it's one of many things on my very long list
of things to try!

You don't even have to come up here. We sometimes go to Richmond to
paddle the James. There is a very active meetup.com kayaking group
called Virgina Paddlers. They have one or two fla****er kayak trips
near Richmond every week in season. It is pretty easy to borrow
equipment most of the time. Kayakers tend to be a very friendly and
generous crowd.

I'll likely end up sitting at home, on my gradually widening ass,
watching infomercials and eating frozen pizza... though it does sound
appealing!

Kayaking is awesome! I have a place on the water and I would take the
canoe out from time to time. But if there is any wind a canoe just gets
blown away. Then I got a kayak and the difference is amazing. In a
canoe you are a foot or so off the water, in a kayak your rear is
actually below the water line and you feel so much more a part of it.

The widening profile is not just mythical and not without consequence.
If you think you might enjoy the water, I strongly encourage you to get
out there and do something. Not only is it fantastic exercise, it is a
very social activity and the people are *great*. Don't just sit
there... Oh, did I mention there are lots of women who kayak? Often
more women than men show up at paddles... can you say that about ham fests?

Thank you for being a rational voice here. I don't think what I want to
do is unreasonable. I am sorry that some folks here responded so
strongly to my comments about the purpose of the marine VHF rules.
Maybe they can take a lesson from you...

--

Rick

On 9/7/2013 7:43 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/7/2013 12:11 AM, Steve Crow wrote:


On a more serious note, I'm always amazed that the response from so many
hams is to immediately suggest ham radio as the ultimate solution to any
communications dilemma, and quite often it is not. This was just one
such instance.

While there's no doubt it's an enjoyable hobby, and you'd probably get
some use out of it, it doesn't address your immediate needs.

(I was never a top performing sales guy at my last job. I wonder why?)


Two things:

1. What do you expect from an Amateur Radio related newsgroup?

2. Amateur radio is a perfect solution for him, except he's placing
additional, unnecessary constraints. He has multiple bands he can use,
can run much more power, and no restrictions on base or mobile usage.
The only restrictions are he can only talk to other licensed hams, and
cannot use it for business. I don't see the latter as a problem, from
what he's said.

But then you obviously don't know anything about ham radio, yet you are
giving your opinion on it.

Why do you continue to argue about this? I have explained repeatedly
that I won't be able to get anyone else to use ham gear. So I would not
be able to talk to anyone I wish to talk to.

Is this one of those groups where a small number of people dominate all
the conversations?

--

Rick