On 4-16-2011 00:31, Joe from Kokomo wrote:

On 4/15/2011 6:41 PM, Scott wrote:

Why? If every ham just wrote to their elected officials (for the cost of
a stamp, or free by email), they would get the message just as well, if
not better than, if they got 1 letter or a personal visit from the ARRL
"lobbyist".

Just my personal opinion, but I believe it is quite naive to think that
if "every ham just wrote". Extremely unlikely...and oh, if not the ARRL,
just who do you think is going to tell the hams to write and what to
write about?

Well, if hams won't take any initiative to write their Congressmen, then
they probably don't give two craps enough to really care if we lose
bandwidth. All proposed NPRMs are published in the Federal Register and
a simple search on their website for "FCC" will list them.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/multidb.cgi


Finally, it's quite naive to think that a national lobbying organization
is not helpful -- just look at how successful the NRA is.

So, the ARRL is donating how much to political parties?

The NRA has donated a bit over $18 million from 1989-2010. They were
number 39 of the top 140 donors...
39 National Rifle Assn $18,209,746 17%(To Dems) 82% (To Repubs)
THAT'S probably why they are so successful. Money talks, BS Walks...

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

Didn't see the ARRL in the top 140. Searched and didn't find them on
the list at all. #140 donated about $4.7 million over the same period.

If the ARRL is so successful at lobbying, why did BPL go through even
though they begged members to send more money to fight against it and
lost the battle anyway? Remember when the 13cm band used to be
2300-2450 MHz? I do. Remember when the 1.25M band used to be 220-225
MHz. I do. Remember when a lot of foreign countries had no code
requirement for HF and we did? I do.

I'm not saying they aren't worth something, but why won't they give a
guy a choice about which magazine he wants with his membership?
Probably because QEX doesn't have so many ads as QST and they want the
advertisers to get more bang for their buck (understandably, since they
can charge more for ad space based on the number of magazine "subscribers")

On 4-16-2011 00:40, Kenneth Scharf wrote:

All of you are also forgetting that the ARRL (for better or worse) is
now the 'back bone' of the system that handles testing for ham licenses.
Without them it would be almost impossible to find where you can locally
take the test to apply for or upgrade your ham ticket.

Don't forget W5YI as a VEC. That's who I'm affiliated with, although
I'm not active with any VEC at present. They list VEs by state, so you
can find a local examiner.
http://www.w5yi.org/exam_locations_ama.php

The ARRL also
publishes most of the test guide material (though I would be surprised
if it wasn't also available on line). Finally they have a good line of
excellent technical publications on radio and electronics technology.

Yes, so I would almost say they are more in the publishing business than
the lobbying business.


Also they DO offer membership without QST, for additional members of a
family. Maybe the price of that will give you an idea of what they think
the membership itself is worth.

So, can I just pay for membership and skip QST?

I believe they are required by the IRS to set a "value" on membership if
they are a non-profit. They are a non-profit, aren't they?

On 4/15/2011 7:27 AM, Joe from Kokomo wrote:

tom, just my personal opinion, but too bad you left the ARRL and too bad
you don't care.

I don't know about your "2 to 5%" figure, but even if it is true, it's
exactly 2 to 5% more than any other organization is spending to go to
bat for ham radio...and IMHO, we NEED (and should support) a national
organization.

73,
Joe

On 4/15/2011 9:47 PM, tom wrote:

The ARRL seems to have little to do with the most important part of
getting new hams, licensing.

Huh? It's really not clear what you are saying. Have you visited the
ARRL web site?

Here are some of the sections they have listed relating to developing
new hams under the "Licensing, Education & Training" tab:


*FCC License Info & Forms

ARRL can provide helpful FCC information about licensing
requirements, forms, fees and regulations.


*Getting Licensed

Get the information you need to get started: find a class or
study materials and prepare for your licensing exam. Already licensed?
Take the next step and upgrade.

*Volunteer Examiner Coordinator

The ARRL Volunteer Examiner Coordinator (VEC) offers resources
for finding an exam session, becoming a volunteer examiner and VE Team
support.

*Volunteer Instructors/Mentors


*ARRL Courses & Training

ARRL training materials and online classes have been developed to
help you learn at your own pace.


*FCC License Info & Forms

ARRL can provide helpful FCC information about licensing
requirements, forms, fees and regulations.

*Get on the Air

You've got your license, now what? Find resources to help you set
up your first station, get on the air and have fun! Learn More

Volunteer opportunities, recruitment and unique ways to support
Amateur Radio advocacy.

o Amateur Radio in the Classroom

This sure seems like a lot of stuff for a group that you claim is not
supposed to be interested in beginners.

The National VEC page, http://www.ncvec.org, apparently doesn't even
acknowledge the ARRL.

Again, huh? This site is "unto themselves". They don't seem to
acknowledge ANY group except themselves. Sorry, but IMHO, a totally
bogus point.

So much for making new hams.

One more time...Huh?

They DO have a VE program (I AM one), they have an Educational program
to bring ham radio to kids in the class room, they set up space station
contacts for kids in classrooms, they have a Volunteer Instructor
program to teach people how to be instructors for training new hams,
they have volunteer mentors, almost every article in QST has a
"Hamspeak" section to explain unique ham terms to beginners.

Finally, what makes you think they don't want new hams? It would be in
their best interest and longevity to have more new hams. Why would they
shoot themselves in the foot by not wanting new hams?

The only thing that IS clear to me is that you have not read QST in a
long time, have not been to their web site in a long time and seem to
have a real grudge against them for whatever reason (certainly your
prerogative). But you DO demonstrably have your facts wrong about them
doing nothing to encourage new hams.

I would respectfully suggest that you visit their site, arrl.org, and at
the main page choose the "Licensing, Education and Training" tab to see
just how much they ARE doing to cultivate new hams. (Admittedly a tough
job in the Internet Age, but contrary to what you are saying, they ARE
trying).

73,
Joe

On 04/15/2011 08:21 PM, Scott wrote:
On 4-16-2011 00:40, Kenneth Scharf wrote:

All of you are also forgetting that the ARRL (for better or worse) is
now the 'back bone' of the system that handles testing for ham licenses.
Without them it would be almost impossible to find where you can locally
take the test to apply for or upgrade your ham ticket.

Don't forget W5YI as a VEC. That's who I'm affiliated with, although I'm
not active with any VEC at present. They list VEs by state, so you can
find a local examiner.
http://www.w5yi.org/exam_locations_ama.php



..

On Apr 15, 8:13*pm, Scott wrote:
On 4-16-2011 00:31, Joe from Kokomo wrote:

On 4/15/2011 6:41 PM, Scott wrote:

Why? If every ham just wrote to their elected officials (for the cost of
a stamp, or free by email), they would get the message just as well, if
not better than, if they got 1 letter or a personal visit from the ARRL
"lobbyist".

Just my personal opinion, but I believe it is quite naive to think that
if "every ham just wrote". Extremely unlikely...and oh, if not the ARRL,
just who do you think is going to tell the hams to write and what to
write about?

Well, if hams won't take any initiative to write their Congressmen, then
they probably don't give two craps enough to really care if we lose
bandwidth. *All proposed NPRMs are published in the Federal Register and
a simple search on their website for "FCC" will list them.http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/multidb.cgi



Finally, it's quite naive to think that a national lobbying organization
is not helpful -- just look at how successful the NRA is.

So, the ARRL is donating how much to political parties?

The NRA has donated a bit over $18 million from 1989-2010. *They were
number 39 of the top 140 donors...
39 National Rifle Assn *$18,209,746 * * 17%(To Dems) * *82% (To Repubs)
THAT'S probably why they are so successful. *Money talks, BS Walks...

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

Didn't see the ARRL in the top 140. *Searched and didn't find them on
the list at all. *#140 donated about $4.7 million over the same period.

If the ARRL is so successful at lobbying, why did BPL go through even
though they begged members to send more money to fight against it and
lost the battle anyway? *Remember when the 13cm band used to be
2300-2450 MHz? *I do. *Remember when the 1.25M band used to be 220-225
MHz. *I do. *Remember when a lot of foreign countries had no code
requirement for HF and we did? *I do.

I'm not saying they aren't worth something, but why won't they give a
guy a choice about which magazine he wants with his membership?
Probably because QEX doesn't have so many ads as QST and they want the
advertisers to get more bang for their buck (understandably, since they
can charge more for ad space based on the number of magazine "subscribers")

*IF* The ARRL want to have a real "Voice" at the Table
in Congress and at the FCC :Then they have to be as
'smart' as the other "Players" in the Washington, DC
Political 'Action' {Power} Game.

Look At Success : Look at the NRA Political Victory
Fund (NRA-PVF) : http://www.nrapvf.org/

You have and build your 'basic' ARRL Membership
-roughly- 155,000 ARRL Members
http://www.arrl.org/membership

+ Plus you have to have and build a supporting
{Independent} "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC Fund

The ARRL has enough Members who are Lawyers
set-up and make a "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC
Fund Do-Able and Work-Able -so- Just Do It !

Encourage Each ARRL Member to make a
Matching {Voluntary} Contribution to the
"Voice of Amateur Radio" [VoAR] PAC Fund
-so- Take the 155,000 ARRL Members
-by- $5 = $775,000 VoAR-PAC Fund : Figure about
20% for a Part-Time Lobbyist and leaves around
$1000 in 'political' contributions per Member of Congress
-by- $10 = $1,555,000 VoAR-PAC Fund : Figure about
20% for a Part-Time Lobbyist and leaves around $2000
in 'political' contributions per Member of Congress

? Is Your Amateur [Ham] Radio "Hobby" Worth an
Extra $5 to $10 per Year To You For A Seat At The
Table of Congress and the FCC in Washington, DC ?

Promote the "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC Fund
to the American Public and the Corporate World
Git Them To Become Sponsors and Underwriters
of the "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC Fund too.

Then Use the "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC Fund
Money to Lobby Congress and the FCC to ensure
Fairness and Equal Treatment for Amateur Radio
in Congress and Before the FCC.

It's All Legal & It's All Good - it's very smart too ~ RHF

In Scott
wrote:

So, the ARRL is donating how much to political parties?

The NRA has donated a bit over $18 million from 1989-2010. They were
number 39 of the top 140 donors...

The NRA has spun off an entire "separate" organization to do that, since
the tax status of the basic organization doesn't allow it.

The NRA also has about 4 million members; how many does ARRL have?

http://www.nraila.org/

http://www.arrl.org/political-campaigns-and-the-arrl

--
Bert Hyman W0RSB St. Paul, MN

BPL has NOT "gone through."

The ARRL DOES lobby in D.C. - Chwat & Co., Alexandria,VA
Plus direct HQ access to the FCC commissioners and staff.

Your contributions are regularly requested, plus the most effective,
personal letters to our representatives.

"non-profit" organizations do have restrictions on how money is spent,
e.g. no money to political campaigns, etc.

http://www.arrl.org/regulatory-advocacy

W5MTV



On 4/16/2011 4:17 PM, RHF wrote:
On Apr 15, 8:13 pm, wrote:
On 4-16-2011 00:31, Joe from Kokomo wrote:

On 4/15/2011 6:41 PM, Scott wrote:

Why? If every ham just wrote to their elected officials (for the cost of
a stamp, or free by email), they would get the message just as well, if
not better than, if they got 1 letter or a personal visit from the ARRL
"lobbyist".

Just my personal opinion, but I believe it is quite naive to think that
if "every ham just wrote". Extremely unlikely...and oh, if not the ARRL,
just who do you think is going to tell the hams to write and what to
write about?

Well, if hams won't take any initiative to write their Congressmen, then
they probably don't give two craps enough to really care if we lose
bandwidth. All proposed NPRMs are published in the Federal Register and
a simple search on their website for "FCC" will list them.http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/multidb.cgi



Finally, it's quite naive to think that a national lobbying organization
is not helpful -- just look at how successful the NRA is.

So, the ARRL is donating how much to political parties?

The NRA has donated a bit over $18 million from 1989-2010. They were
number 39 of the top 140 donors...
39 National Rifle Assn $18,209,746 17%(To Dems) 82% (To Repubs)
THAT'S probably why they are so successful. Money talks, BS Walks...

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

Didn't see the ARRL in the top 140. Searched and didn't find them on
the list at all. #140 donated about $4.7 million over the same period.

If the ARRL is so successful at lobbying, why did BPL go through even
though they begged members to send more money to fight against it and
lost the battle anyway? Remember when the 13cm band used to be
2300-2450 MHz? I do. Remember when the 1.25M band used to be 220-225
MHz. I do. Remember when a lot of foreign countries had no code
requirement for HF and we did? I do.

I'm not saying they aren't worth something, but why won't they give a
guy a choice about which magazine he wants with his membership?
Probably because QEX doesn't have so many ads as QST and they want the
advertisers to get more bang for their buck (understandably, since they
can charge more for ad space based on the number of magazine "subscribers")

*IF* The ARRL want to have a real "Voice" at the Table
in Congress and at the FCC :Then they have to be as
'smart' as the other "Players" in the Washington, DC
Political 'Action' {Power} Game.

Look At Success : Look at the NRA Political Victory
Fund (NRA-PVF) : http://www.nrapvf.org/

You have and build your 'basic' ARRL Membership
-roughly- 155,000 ARRL Members
http://www.arrl.org/membership

+ Plus you have to have and build a supporting
{Independent} "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC Fund

The ARRL has enough Members who are Lawyers
set-up and make a "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC
Fund Do-Able and Work-Able -so- Just Do It !

Encourage Each ARRL Member to make a
Matching {Voluntary} Contribution to the
"Voice of Amateur Radio" [VoAR] PAC Fund
-so- Take the 155,000 ARRL Members
-by- $5 = $775,000 VoAR-PAC Fund : Figure about
20% for a Part-Time Lobbyist and leaves around
$1000 in 'political' contributions per Member of Congress
-by- $10 = $1,555,000 VoAR-PAC Fund : Figure about
20% for a Part-Time Lobbyist and leaves around $2000
in 'political' contributions per Member of Congress

? Is Your Amateur [Ham] Radio "Hobby" Worth an
Extra $5 to $10 per Year To You For A Seat At The
Table of Congress and the FCC in Washington, DC ?

Promote the "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC Fund
to the American Public and the Corporate World
Git Them To Become Sponsors and Underwriters
of the "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC Fund too.

Then Use the "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC Fund
Money to Lobby Congress and the FCC to ensure
Fairness and Equal Treatment for Amateur Radio
in Congress and Before the FCC.

It's All Legal& It's All Good - it's very smart too ~ RHF
.
REALITY CHECK : WITH ONLY 155,000 MEMBERS
THE ARRL HAS THREE GOALS :
1st : Build Membership and Increase the Number of Hams
-or-lose-spectrum-and-vanish-from-the-air-waves-
2nd : Build Membership and Increase the Number of Hams
-or-lose-spectrum-and-vanish-from-the-air-waves-
3rd : Build Membership and Increase the Number of Hams
-or-lose-spectrum-and-vanish-from-the-air-waves-
.
.

On Apr 16, 3:46*pm, MTV wrote:
- BPL has NOT "gone through."
-
- The ARRL DOES lobby in D.C. - Chwat & Co., Alexandria,VA
- Plus direct HQ access to the FCC commissioners and staff.
-
- Your contributions are regularly requested, plus the most effective,
- personal letters to our representatives.
-
- "non-profit" organizations do have restrictions on how money is
spent,
- e.g. no money to political campaigns, etc.
-
- http://www.arrl.org/regulatory-advocacy
-
- W5MTV

W5MTV --- Hence "Look At {Better} Success" :
Look at the NRA Political Victory
Fund (NRA-PVF) : http://www.nrapvf.org/

The Are More and Bigger Challenges To Amateur Radio Then
Just BPL : Such As Lose of RF Spectrum and Radio Bands.
http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Hambands_color.pdf

Simple Fact : With just 155,000 Members the ARRL
is a relatively 'small' Constituency Group for anyone
Congressman or Senator; and the US Congress as a
whole; as contrasted to :
* NRA ~ 4 Million Members [25X ARRL]
* AARP ~ 40 Million Members [250X ARRL]
Both of Which Claim To Be "Non-Profit" Organizations too...

Again I Simply Posse The Question :
Why-Not ? : A "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC Fund !
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...807e1c0a01df1c

On Apr 16, 4:23*pm, RHF wrote:
On Apr 16, 3:46*pm, MTV wrote:
- BPL has NOT "gone through."
-
- The ARRL DOES lobby in D.C. - Chwat & Co., Alexandria,VA
- Plus direct HQ access to the FCC commissioners and staff.
-
- Your contributions are regularly requested, plus the most effective,
- personal letters to our representatives.
-
- "non-profit" organizations do have restrictions on how money is
spent,
- e.g. no money to political campaigns, etc.
-
-http://www.arrl.org/regulatory-advocacy
-
- W5MTV

W5MTV --- Hence "Look At {Better} Success" :
Look at the NRA Political Victory
Fund (NRA-PVF) :http://www.nrapvf.org/

The Are More and Bigger Challenges To Amateur Radio Then
Just BPL : Such As Lose of RF Spectrum and Radio Bands.http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Hambands_color.pdf

Simple Fact : With just 155,000 Members the ARRL
is a relatively 'small' Constituency Group for anyone
Congressman or Senator; and the US Congress as a
whole; as contrasted to :
* NRA ~ 4 Million Members [25X ARRL]
* AARP ~ 40 Million Members [250X ARRL]
Both of Which Claim To Be "Non-Profit" Organizations too...

Again I Simply Posse The Question :
Why-Not ? : A "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC Fund !http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...807e1c0a01df1c
*.
*. On 4/16/2011 4:17 PM, RHF wrote:

Look At Success : Look at the NRA Political Victory
Fund (NRA-PVF) :http://www.nrapvf.org/









On Apr 15, 8:13 pm, *wrote:
On 4-16-2011 00:31, Joe from Kokomo wrote:

On 4/15/2011 6:41 PM, Scott wrote:

Why? If every ham just wrote to their elected officials (for the cost of
a stamp, or free by email), they would get the message just as well, if
not better than, if they got 1 letter or a personal visit from the ARRL
"lobbyist".

Just my personal opinion, but I believe it is quite naive to think that
if "every ham just wrote". Extremely unlikely...and oh, if not the ARRL,
just who do you think is going to tell the hams to write and what to
write about?

Well, if hams won't take any initiative to write their Congressmen, then
they probably don't give two craps enough to really care if we lose
bandwidth. *All proposed NPRMs are published in the Federal Register and
a simple search on their website for "FCC" will list them.http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/multidb.cgi

Finally, it's quite naive to think that a national lobbying organization
is not helpful -- just look at how successful the NRA is.

So, the ARRL is donating how much to political parties?

The NRA has donated a bit over $18 million from 1989-2010. *They were
number 39 of the top 140 donors...
39 National Rifle Assn *$18,209,746 * * 17%(To Dems) * *82% (To Repubs)
THAT'S probably why they are so successful. *Money talks, BS Walks....

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

Didn't see the ARRL in the top 140. *Searched and didn't find them on
the list at all. *#140 donated about $4.7 million over the same period.

If the ARRL is so successful at lobbying, why did BPL go through even
though they begged members to send more money to fight against it and
lost the battle anyway? *Remember when the 13cm band used to be
2300-2450 MHz? *I do. *Remember when the 1.25M band used to be 220-225
MHz. *I do. *Remember when a lot of foreign countries had no code
requirement for HF and we did? *I do.

I'm not saying they aren't worth something, but why won't they give a
guy a choice about which magazine he wants with his membership?
Probably because QEX doesn't have so many ads as QST and they want the
advertisers to get more bang for their buck (understandably, since they
can charge more for ad space based on the number of magazine "subscribers")

*IF* The ARRL want to have a real "Voice" at the Table
in Congress and at the FCC :Then they have to be as
'smart' as the other "Players" in the Washington, DC
Political 'Action' {Power} Game.

Look At Success : Look at the NRA Political Victory
Fund (NRA-PVF) :http://www.nrapvf.org/

You have and build your 'basic' ARRL Membership
-roughly- 155,000 ARRL Members
http://www.arrl.org/membership

+ Plus you have to have and build a supporting
{Independent} "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC Fund

The ARRL has enough Members who are Lawyers
set-up and make a "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC
Fund Do-Able and Work-Able -so- Just Do It !

Encourage Each ARRL Member to make a
Matching {Voluntary} Contribution to the
"Voice of Amateur Radio" [VoAR] PAC Fund
-so- Take the 155,000 ARRL Members
-by- $5 = $775,000 VoAR-PAC Fund : Figure about
20% for a Part-Time Lobbyist and leaves around
$1000 in 'political' contributions per Member of Congress
-by- $10 = $1,555,000 VoAR-PAC Fund *: Figure about
20% for a Part-Time Lobbyist and leaves around $2000
in 'political' contributions per Member of Congress

? Is Your Amateur [Ham] Radio "Hobby" Worth an
Extra $5 to $10 per Year To You For A Seat At The
Table of Congress and the FCC in Washington, DC ?

Promote the "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC Fund
to the American Public and the Corporate World
Git Them To Become Sponsors and Underwriters
of the "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC Fund too.

Then Use the "Voice of Amateur Radio" PAC Fund
Money to Lobby Congress and the FCC to ensure
Fairness and Equal Treatment for Amateur Radio
in Congress and Before the FCC.

It's All Legal& *It's All Good - it's very smart too ~ RHF
* .
REALITY CHECK : WITH ONLY 155,000 MEMBERS
THE ARRL HAS THREE GOALS :
1st : Build Membership and Increase the Number of Hams
-or-lose-spectrum-and-vanish-from-the-air-waves-
2nd : Build Membership and Increase the Number of Hams
-or-lose-spectrum-and-vanish-from-the-air-waves-
3rd : Build Membership and Increase the Number of Hams
-or-lose-spectrum-and-vanish-from-the-air-waves-
* .
* .

What hams need are wealthy, high-profile members - like the NRA and
AARP. They may be small, but fascinating people, even if they are
stooges, can yield results.

On 04/16/2011 02:17 PM, RHF wrote:


*IF* The ARRL want to have a real "Voice" at the Table
in Congress and at the FCC :Then they have to be as
'smart' as the other "Players" in the Washington, DC
Political 'Action' {Power} Game.

Look At Success : Look at the NRA Political Victory
Fund (NRA-PVF) : http://www.nrapvf.org/