In article , W7TI
writes:

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:40:05 GMT, "Ken Finney"
wrote:

The semiconductor industry is one of the most bizarre there is, but it
works for them.
_________________________________________________ ________

Before semis became ubiquitous, tube manufacturers did about the same
thing. Any idea how many variations there are on the good 'ol 6AU6?
I'd guess probably between 50 and 100, some pin compatible and some not,
and not one of them worked a bit better than the others. But it was a
money maker for them to keep coming out with "new" tubes that everyone
had to stock up on.

In February, 1953, I did my first QSY on HF with a BC-339 that ran a
pair of 833s in the final. 833 is not your run-of-the-mill receiver set
tube. :-)

About the same time a group of the guys at Army station ADA were
into an argument about "how many vacuum tube types" there were
then. (I guess it was something to do) Several scarfed up catalogs
and things, even got the station OIC interested. I forget the exact
number but it was like 3500 nomenclature types of all kinds, receiving,
transmitting, power control, photoelectric eyes, whatever.

By 1960 there were the 12 V filament versions of basic 6 V tubes
and the other "weird" filament voltages for series-stringing to
reduce the cost of a transformer in a TV set. Ruggedized versions
of basic lower-power tubes for mobile and airborne were out with
5000 and 6000 series numbers. Loctals were disappearing as
were the "acorn" types for VHF-UHF. Big changes everywhere,
not just on TV sets, to meet both competition and new environments
and frequencies. Sylvania's tube spec book had small loose-leaf
pages, at least two update sets per year...:-)

By 1980 the number of available-on-the-market semiconductors were
at least two orders of magnitude greater than that old 1953 group
compilation of tubes done at ADA...maybe three orders of magnitude.
All kinds of ICs for many, many purposes and universal applications
like the all-purpose Opamp (bless you, Bob Widlar, wherever you are).

By 1990 there was already a trend of "downsizing" semiconductor
product lines. National Semi and Motorola data books were no longer
expanding beyond their one-foot shelf width for most volumes. There
was COMPETITION on the world market for all kinds of electronics
and it was fierce and hot, not just in PCs+peripherals but all kinds of
electronic things and products. The number of available semi products
had expanded beyond reasonable capitalistic bounds and the market
overall just couldn't sustain all of them.

Ahhhhh, the good old days.

Bill, I respectfully give you a pthbtbtbt on that. :-)

I DON'T want them back now that the whole electronics world is
swimming in a sea of wonderful parts plethora! Sure, it's getting
to be a chore on selecting a precise IC or transistor...because there's
SO MANY to choose from. In 1956 one was lucky to get a transistor
(affordable) that would work beyond audio frequencies.

Just got a Mouser paper catalog a couple days ago. It's a full inch
and a half thick with very thin paper contents. The Digi-Key industrial
catalog on paper is about that size, maybe larger. HUGE inventories!
Pages of semiconductor components that don't seem to stop. All
kinds of semis, all kinds of other components...TTL expanded to many
families, CMOS functional work-alikes to TTL numbers for zilch power
drain...voltage regulators, band-gap voltage references more precise
than zeners, all kinds of FETs capable of POWER handling, RF
transistors capable of working at 1.2 GHz, small signal FETs
approaching that. Huge selection of Microchip microcontrollers that
anyone can use and program with free software, displays that knock
the eyes out, LEDs of many colors.

Yes, the traditional "radio" parts aren't there anymore, not in the
Allied or Newark catalogs either. "Plate transformers" are hard to get
and only specialty places still sell variable capacitors for "tuning."
Even vacuum tube sockets are getting hard to get. The electronics
world get very big everywhere and it got much lower in voltage and
much bigger in functions for all kinds of purposes. Times change.

These are times of paradise for designers! I wouldn't have it any other
way... :-)

Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person

In article , W7TI
writes:

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:40:05 GMT, "Ken Finney"
wrote:

The semiconductor industry is one of the most bizarre there is, but it
works for them.
_________________________________________________ ________

Before semis became ubiquitous, tube manufacturers did about the same
thing. Any idea how many variations there are on the good 'ol 6AU6?
I'd guess probably between 50 and 100, some pin compatible and some not,
and not one of them worked a bit better than the others. But it was a
money maker for them to keep coming out with "new" tubes that everyone
had to stock up on.

In February, 1953, I did my first QSY on HF with a BC-339 that ran a
pair of 833s in the final. 833 is not your run-of-the-mill receiver set
tube. :-)

About the same time a group of the guys at Army station ADA were
into an argument about "how many vacuum tube types" there were
then. (I guess it was something to do) Several scarfed up catalogs
and things, even got the station OIC interested. I forget the exact
number but it was like 3500 nomenclature types of all kinds, receiving,
transmitting, power control, photoelectric eyes, whatever.

By 1960 there were the 12 V filament versions of basic 6 V tubes
and the other "weird" filament voltages for series-stringing to
reduce the cost of a transformer in a TV set. Ruggedized versions
of basic lower-power tubes for mobile and airborne were out with
5000 and 6000 series numbers. Loctals were disappearing as
were the "acorn" types for VHF-UHF. Big changes everywhere,
not just on TV sets, to meet both competition and new environments
and frequencies. Sylvania's tube spec book had small loose-leaf
pages, at least two update sets per year...:-)

By 1980 the number of available-on-the-market semiconductors were
at least two orders of magnitude greater than that old 1953 group
compilation of tubes done at ADA...maybe three orders of magnitude.
All kinds of ICs for many, many purposes and universal applications
like the all-purpose Opamp (bless you, Bob Widlar, wherever you are).

By 1990 there was already a trend of "downsizing" semiconductor
product lines. National Semi and Motorola data books were no longer
expanding beyond their one-foot shelf width for most volumes. There
was COMPETITION on the world market for all kinds of electronics
and it was fierce and hot, not just in PCs+peripherals but all kinds of
electronic things and products. The number of available semi products
had expanded beyond reasonable capitalistic bounds and the market
overall just couldn't sustain all of them.

Ahhhhh, the good old days.

Bill, I respectfully give you a pthbtbtbt on that. :-)

I DON'T want them back now that the whole electronics world is
swimming in a sea of wonderful parts plethora! Sure, it's getting
to be a chore on selecting a precise IC or transistor...because there's
SO MANY to choose from. In 1956 one was lucky to get a transistor
(affordable) that would work beyond audio frequencies.

Just got a Mouser paper catalog a couple days ago. It's a full inch
and a half thick with very thin paper contents. The Digi-Key industrial
catalog on paper is about that size, maybe larger. HUGE inventories!
Pages of semiconductor components that don't seem to stop. All
kinds of semis, all kinds of other components...TTL expanded to many
families, CMOS functional work-alikes to TTL numbers for zilch power
drain...voltage regulators, band-gap voltage references more precise
than zeners, all kinds of FETs capable of POWER handling, RF
transistors capable of working at 1.2 GHz, small signal FETs
approaching that. Huge selection of Microchip microcontrollers that
anyone can use and program with free software, displays that knock
the eyes out, LEDs of many colors.

Yes, the traditional "radio" parts aren't there anymore, not in the
Allied or Newark catalogs either. "Plate transformers" are hard to get
and only specialty places still sell variable capacitors for "tuning."
Even vacuum tube sockets are getting hard to get. The electronics
world get very big everywhere and it got much lower in voltage and
much bigger in functions for all kinds of purposes. Times change.

These are times of paradise for designers! I wouldn't have it any other
way... :-)

Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person

Avery Fineman wrote:
By 1960 there were the 12 V filament versions of basic 6 V tubes
and the other "weird" filament voltages for series-stringing to
reduce the cost of a transformer in a TV set.

Hmm... and to think it wasn't until the '80s or thereabouts that cars
started to become noticeably non-user-serviceable... (Well, I suppose you
guys just checked the pins of the tube bases to see where the voltage
stopped? Not too bad...)

One of the things people should keep in mind is that -- especially in the
digital world -- one device can replaces tons of older ones. If you need
fast digital logic, use a CPLD or FPGA. For slower stuff, nothing can beat
the versatility of a microcontroller, and these days they're dirt cheap with
tons of features. Analog electronics is certainly still struggling in that
programmable analog devices based on, e.g., switched capacitor architectures
tend to noticeably limit performance in a manner that makes their usage
nichey (i.e., if you can afford the ADC and DAC anyway, a lot of
programmable analog chips perform no better than an ADC, DSP, and a DAC),
but at the same time Analog Devices, Linear Tech., etc. keep cranking out
some very impressive op-amps, regulators, etc. (Just off-hand, the LTC1799
is a pretty nice chip that's already found its way into some amateur radio
equipment!)

I'm personally quite interested in bridging the digital and analog worlds of
radio design, applying each where it makes the most sense.

---Joel Kolstad

Avery Fineman wrote:
By 1960 there were the 12 V filament versions of basic 6 V tubes
and the other "weird" filament voltages for series-stringing to
reduce the cost of a transformer in a TV set.

Hmm... and to think it wasn't until the '80s or thereabouts that cars
started to become noticeably non-user-serviceable... (Well, I suppose you
guys just checked the pins of the tube bases to see where the voltage
stopped? Not too bad...)

One of the things people should keep in mind is that -- especially in the
digital world -- one device can replaces tons of older ones. If you need
fast digital logic, use a CPLD or FPGA. For slower stuff, nothing can beat
the versatility of a microcontroller, and these days they're dirt cheap with
tons of features. Analog electronics is certainly still struggling in that
programmable analog devices based on, e.g., switched capacitor architectures
tend to noticeably limit performance in a manner that makes their usage
nichey (i.e., if you can afford the ADC and DAC anyway, a lot of
programmable analog chips perform no better than an ADC, DSP, and a DAC),
but at the same time Analog Devices, Linear Tech., etc. keep cranking out
some very impressive op-amps, regulators, etc. (Just off-hand, the LTC1799
is a pretty nice chip that's already found its way into some amateur radio
equipment!)

I'm personally quite interested in bridging the digital and analog worlds of
radio design, applying each where it makes the most sense.

---Joel Kolstad

(Tim Shoppa) wrote in message . com...
"Clifton T. Sharp Jr." wrote in message ...
I can see where some didn't sell well enough to warrant much more than
an occasional run of a hundred thousand or so. But hell, the other day
I found a tube of zero-crossing switch ICs in storage and Googled on
the part number, and it looks like there's enough demand for these
things that I could get well over $600 for the tube!

Assuming you could find the buyers. Those guys selling them for Big
Buck$ (and we're both making the assumption that they are selling...
we don't actually know that!) probably wouldn't offer you a dime for your
tube of 'em.

Tim.

Yep, we have reached the logical heights of electronic absurdity -
parts are discontinued so rapidly that I am seeing big television
sets, 12 months old, with discontinued chips in them (Philips seem to
be the worse in this department). Added to this the price of new
domestic equipment (TV,VCR etc) is so cheap that it is indeed "throw
away". Pity I am trying to still make a living fixing these things.

If you get more than the statutory 12 months life from it, then thats
a bonus - or, think like an MBA and realise it has cost you $5 a week
to run.....

The generation gap widens ever more, and, like the dinosaurs, we who
remember spares in stock NOW are a dying breed....

73 de VK3BFA Andrew

(Tim Shoppa) wrote in message . com...
"Clifton T. Sharp Jr." wrote in message ...
I can see where some didn't sell well enough to warrant much more than
an occasional run of a hundred thousand or so. But hell, the other day
I found a tube of zero-crossing switch ICs in storage and Googled on
the part number, and it looks like there's enough demand for these
things that I could get well over $600 for the tube!

Assuming you could find the buyers. Those guys selling them for Big
Buck$ (and we're both making the assumption that they are selling...
we don't actually know that!) probably wouldn't offer you a dime for your
tube of 'em.

Tim.

Yep, we have reached the logical heights of electronic absurdity -
parts are discontinued so rapidly that I am seeing big television
sets, 12 months old, with discontinued chips in them (Philips seem to
be the worse in this department). Added to this the price of new
domestic equipment (TV,VCR etc) is so cheap that it is indeed "throw
away". Pity I am trying to still make a living fixing these things.

If you get more than the statutory 12 months life from it, then thats
a bonus - or, think like an MBA and realise it has cost you $5 a week
to run.....

The generation gap widens ever more, and, like the dinosaurs, we who
remember spares in stock NOW are a dying breed....

73 de VK3BFA Andrew

In article ,
(Andrew VK3BFA) writes:

(Tim Shoppa) wrote in message
.com...
"Clifton T. Sharp Jr." wrote in message
...
I can see where some didn't sell well enough to warrant much more than
an occasional run of a hundred thousand or so. But hell, the other day
I found a tube of zero-crossing switch ICs in storage and Googled on
the part number, and it looks like there's enough demand for these
things that I could get well over $600 for the tube!

Assuming you could find the buyers. Those guys selling them for Big
Buck$ (and we're both making the assumption that they are selling...
we don't actually know that!) probably wouldn't offer you a dime for your
tube of 'em.

Tim.

Yep, we have reached the logical heights of electronic absurdity -
parts are discontinued so rapidly that I am seeing big television
sets, 12 months old, with discontinued chips in them (Philips seem to
be the worse in this department). Added to this the price of new
domestic equipment (TV,VCR etc) is so cheap that it is indeed "throw
away". Pity I am trying to still make a living fixing these things.

Okay, so how does anyone justify spending $40 to $60 an hour
repair charges for an $89 DVD-VHS dual-deck unit purchaseable
at the Fry's Electronics chain?

Nearly all consumer electronics things work just fine right out of
the packing box and stay that way for years.

If you get more than the statutory 12 months life from it, then thats
a bonus - or, think like an MBA and realise it has cost you $5 a week
to run.....

The generation gap widens ever more, and, like the dinosaurs, we who
remember spares in stock NOW are a dying breed....

Keep in mind what happened to the dinosaurs. :-)

Adapt. Don't stand around in museums 24/7.

Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person

In article ,
(Andrew VK3BFA) writes:

(Tim Shoppa) wrote in message
.com...
"Clifton T. Sharp Jr." wrote in message
...
I can see where some didn't sell well enough to warrant much more than
an occasional run of a hundred thousand or so. But hell, the other day
I found a tube of zero-crossing switch ICs in storage and Googled on
the part number, and it looks like there's enough demand for these
things that I could get well over $600 for the tube!

Assuming you could find the buyers. Those guys selling them for Big
Buck$ (and we're both making the assumption that they are selling...
we don't actually know that!) probably wouldn't offer you a dime for your
tube of 'em.

Tim.

Yep, we have reached the logical heights of electronic absurdity -
parts are discontinued so rapidly that I am seeing big television
sets, 12 months old, with discontinued chips in them (Philips seem to
be the worse in this department). Added to this the price of new
domestic equipment (TV,VCR etc) is so cheap that it is indeed "throw
away". Pity I am trying to still make a living fixing these things.

Okay, so how does anyone justify spending $40 to $60 an hour
repair charges for an $89 DVD-VHS dual-deck unit purchaseable
at the Fry's Electronics chain?

Nearly all consumer electronics things work just fine right out of
the packing box and stay that way for years.

If you get more than the statutory 12 months life from it, then thats
a bonus - or, think like an MBA and realise it has cost you $5 a week
to run.....

The generation gap widens ever more, and, like the dinosaurs, we who
remember spares in stock NOW are a dying breed....

Keep in mind what happened to the dinosaurs. :-)

Adapt. Don't stand around in museums 24/7.

Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person