KR Williams wrote:

In article ,
says...
On a sunny day (Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:57:18 GMT) it happened
wrote in :

....snip...

Add that in, and the cost of a $15000 system is
much worse - over 30,000 in a 25 year, 7% mortgage.

You have to take into account that the cost of a kWh from
the grid in 25 years will be a LOT higher too, if there
still is a grid during and after WW3 that is.

That's silly economics. I do not have to take into account the
cost of electricity in 25 years. I can wait. Solar cells are
becoming cheaper too. When the cost of the solar cell is less
than the cost of power from the grid I can switch, saving all of
the negative amortization inbetween, and have a *new* system in
25 years, just as you're in need of replacing yours. ;-)

My guess though, is that solar cells for the individual will
never become cheaper than power from the grid, since the power
company has access to the same technology and a *lot* better
financing possibilities. ...and they don't have to have the pay-
back in my lifetime.

They have access to the tech, BUT, they also have to maintain the
distribution system. Since my electricity has been unbundled,
roughly half of my cost per Kwh goes to the distribution co., not the
producer. Ice storms, drunk drivers, blown line fuses all cost money.
As well as the personel and associated benefits packages,
transportation costs of materials, etc. for maintaining the lines.
All this is avoided cost on home solar.

And...
www.solaraccess.com/news/story?storyid=6482

talking about a new discovery:

"A solar cell with the simplest possible physical structure could
achieve 50 percent efficiency or better, far higher than any yet
demonstrated in the laboratory."

It isn't cost effective for most of us yet, but the tipping point
is coming.

--
Jerry wa2rkn no email @ present

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:47:54 -0700, the renowned "Richard Henry"
wrote:


"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened
"Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win:

....snip...

It's an unusual place- the wind just whistles through the canyons
there and there are dust stoms. A fair number of them seem to be down
for maintenance whenever I go through. I wonder if it is really more
cost effective than burning coal.

That depends to some degree what you consider the "costs" of burning coal
are.

I think, other than the pollution, the costs are included in the
overall running cost (dead miners, etc. etc.). The pollution is a bit
harder to figure, but modern plants are pretty clean. I live close to
a big thermal plant and the left-wing newspapers have been running
pictures of the stacks (usually with evil lighting) saying that
"smoke" is rising blah blah. They've dug up old pictures with all 4
stacks running, and it's usually running at 25%; never more than 50%.
Of course it's mostly steam and some CO2- on a clear day you can see
nothing in the air discoloring it, just the refraction from the heat
and steam trails that rapidly dissipate. The stupid new gov't has been
making noises about closing the thermal plants *AND* the nuclear
plants- I don't know where they think the power would come from (maybe
we can buy it all and export the problem to less "responsible"
people). Bleh. Even with conservation measures and some
deindustrialization, population is growing at a healthy rate, and so
is consumption.

I assume you are talking about coal fired plants? They release particles
as well as mercury and radioactivity. There is no clean power.

--
Jerry wa2rkn no email @ present

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:47:54 -0700, the renowned "Richard Henry"
wrote:


"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened
"Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win:

....snip...

It's an unusual place- the wind just whistles through the canyons
there and there are dust stoms. A fair number of them seem to be down
for maintenance whenever I go through. I wonder if it is really more
cost effective than burning coal.

That depends to some degree what you consider the "costs" of burning coal
are.

I think, other than the pollution, the costs are included in the
overall running cost (dead miners, etc. etc.). The pollution is a bit
harder to figure, but modern plants are pretty clean. I live close to
a big thermal plant and the left-wing newspapers have been running
pictures of the stacks (usually with evil lighting) saying that
"smoke" is rising blah blah. They've dug up old pictures with all 4
stacks running, and it's usually running at 25%; never more than 50%.
Of course it's mostly steam and some CO2- on a clear day you can see
nothing in the air discoloring it, just the refraction from the heat
and steam trails that rapidly dissipate. The stupid new gov't has been
making noises about closing the thermal plants *AND* the nuclear
plants- I don't know where they think the power would come from (maybe
we can buy it all and export the problem to less "responsible"
people). Bleh. Even with conservation measures and some
deindustrialization, population is growing at a healthy rate, and so
is consumption.

I assume you are talking about coal fired plants? They release particles
as well as mercury and radioactivity. There is no clean power.

--
Jerry wa2rkn no email @ present

Highland Ham wrote...

Having seen these machines near Palm Springs, they seem to be
rather small and of an older design.

I wonder if they shouldn't be replaced, that's prime wind territory.

In the Netherlands many farmers have them on their land, especially
in the northern provinces.

Do they rent the space to the wind-generator owners, or do they each
install and maintain them themselves? Is there a subsidized rate for
the sale of electricity to the grid?

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

Highland Ham wrote...

Having seen these machines near Palm Springs, they seem to be
rather small and of an older design.

I wonder if they shouldn't be replaced, that's prime wind territory.

In the Netherlands many farmers have them on their land, especially
in the northern provinces.

Do they rent the space to the wind-generator owners, or do they each
install and maintain them themselves? Is there a subsidized rate for
the sale of electricity to the grid?

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

Roger has been listening to those who have a nice tidy explanation of
everything. Sometime you want to try to explain to him how come our lettuce
is so cheap.

"Roger Gt" wrote in message
. com...
....
Is that why 18% of inmates in the Oregon prison system are
illegals? Nearly one third of petty criminals in Southern Ca are also
illegals.

Actually, this probably has more to do with the great public defender they
are likely to get.

You haven't got the perspective! The sleep on the streets and
hang out at businesses hoping to be offered work and have
destroyed whole neighborhoods.

Well, I lived down in Orange County CA for a long time. I must admit that
there are some offensive things going on, but most of the illegals I know
about are not the quintessential Hobos of our modern society. Too much risk
in coming above "the man's" radar. They hang with their extended families,
and out in the farming districts where they get seasonal work. Big
population in Colorado for some reason.

The problem is spreading and it is
really bad the nearer you get to the boarder. Farmers along the
border have their crops and equipment stolen or spoiled and have
to maintain a security patrol to keep their homes from being
broken into. These people are criminals and do not respect any
laws.

Beg pardon. These people, except for course for the drug mules that we pay
to bring us our cheap drugs, are the brightest, best, and most ambitious of
a seriously abused population. We might solve 90% of our problems, at the
cost of a bit more expensive lettuce, by making them semi legals and
preventing their abuse.

.... (subject. Paying taxes.)
Not then, nor now! They are a major burden on the state to the
tune of about $4b a year!

Whew! Is that all? They are responsible for around 12 billion in company
proffits, of which they get around 3 billion, and out of that they pay
around half billion in sales taxes. Actually I expect their employers
collect federal and state tax from their salary, and pay it to themselves. I
think that overall our illegal emegrants likely provide us more benifit than
cost, and on top of that they are such an easy target for racial and
cultural hatred. Easy to blame our total failure to provide for our own poor
by calling them all illegals because some few are, horror of horrors, unable
to get legally admitted to our official version of heaven.

BTB, I just made up the numbers for the heck of it. Sounds reasonable to me,
so find better ones.

Roger has been listening to those who have a nice tidy explanation of
everything. Sometime you want to try to explain to him how come our lettuce
is so cheap.

"Roger Gt" wrote in message
. com...
....
Is that why 18% of inmates in the Oregon prison system are
illegals? Nearly one third of petty criminals in Southern Ca are also
illegals.

Actually, this probably has more to do with the great public defender they
are likely to get.

You haven't got the perspective! The sleep on the streets and
hang out at businesses hoping to be offered work and have
destroyed whole neighborhoods.

Well, I lived down in Orange County CA for a long time. I must admit that
there are some offensive things going on, but most of the illegals I know
about are not the quintessential Hobos of our modern society. Too much risk
in coming above "the man's" radar. They hang with their extended families,
and out in the farming districts where they get seasonal work. Big
population in Colorado for some reason.

The problem is spreading and it is
really bad the nearer you get to the boarder. Farmers along the
border have their crops and equipment stolen or spoiled and have
to maintain a security patrol to keep their homes from being
broken into. These people are criminals and do not respect any
laws.

Beg pardon. These people, except for course for the drug mules that we pay
to bring us our cheap drugs, are the brightest, best, and most ambitious of
a seriously abused population. We might solve 90% of our problems, at the
cost of a bit more expensive lettuce, by making them semi legals and
preventing their abuse.

.... (subject. Paying taxes.)
Not then, nor now! They are a major burden on the state to the
tune of about $4b a year!

Whew! Is that all? They are responsible for around 12 billion in company
proffits, of which they get around 3 billion, and out of that they pay
around half billion in sales taxes. Actually I expect their employers
collect federal and state tax from their salary, and pay it to themselves. I
think that overall our illegal emegrants likely provide us more benifit than
cost, and on top of that they are such an easy target for racial and
cultural hatred. Easy to blame our total failure to provide for our own poor
by calling them all illegals because some few are, horror of horrors, unable
to get legally admitted to our official version of heaven.

BTB, I just made up the numbers for the heck of it. Sounds reasonable to me,
so find better ones.

"Roger Gt" wrote in message
. com...

The savages who lived here didn't own the land,

Who did? The King of Spain?

"Roger Gt" wrote in message
. com...

The savages who lived here didn't own the land,

Who did? The King of Spain?

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 09:20:33 +0100) it happened "Highland Ham"
wrote in rSCgc.657$Gq3.274@newsfe1-win:

Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size
here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller
ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP
==============================
As I reported in a previous message its rated capacity is only 150 Watts.
6 Blades , 900 mm diameter, max rpm approx 250 , 3 phase generator ( DC
through one and a half standard 25 Amperes bridge rectifiers)
The thing sits on a street lamp post with an extension (approx 8 metres
above ground.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH
Thx, sounds good.
I have a place for such a thing, and 1 meter diameter is not much.
Will think about this a bit :-)
JP