On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:42:11 +0000, Scott
wrote:

Huh? It's only 5:30AM here and I just got up but, the ONLY time you
aren't consuming power is at the zero crossing of the voltage and
current sine waves (assuming a purely resistive load where I and E are
in phase). Since you are paying for power, which is P=I X E, during the
negative half cycle, you have, for example, -168 Volts X -1 Amp = +168
Watts...try it on a calculator...negative times a negative is positive.

Thanks, Scott. So you're basically agreeing with me. I owe the power
co. for the positive cycles they send me; they owe *me* for the
negative ones. Since they are equal and opposite, they cancel each
other out. Overall, then, zero billing justified.
We are being conned!!!
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

Paul Burridge wrote:
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:42:11 +0000, Scott
wrote:


Huh? It's only 5:30AM here and I just got up but, the ONLY time you
aren't consuming power is at the zero crossing of the voltage and
current sine waves (assuming a purely resistive load where I and E are
in phase). Since you are paying for power, which is P=I X E, during the
negative half cycle, you have, for example, -168 Volts X -1 Amp = +168
Watts...try it on a calculator...negative times a negative is positive.


Thanks, Scott. So you're basically agreeing with me. I owe the power
co. for the positive cycles they send me; they owe *me* for the
negative ones. Since they are equal and opposite, they cancel each
other out. Overall, then, zero billing justified.
We are being conned!!!

You might have a case if the ac feed was a single line- but the
so-called negative cycle is a relative polarity- they draw current out
of your hot connection by supplying it to the neutral. They vector sum
of the two currents they deliver is zero at all times- so you pay for
them to maintain an undulating line voltage with constant RMS magnitude
across your house.

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:54:55 +0000, Paul Burridge
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:42:11 +0000, Scott
wrote:

Huh? It's only 5:30AM here and I just got up but, the ONLY time you
aren't consuming power is at the zero crossing of the voltage and
current sine waves (assuming a purely resistive load where I and E are
in phase). Since you are paying for power, which is P=I X E, during the
negative half cycle, you have, for example, -168 Volts X -1 Amp = +168
Watts...try it on a calculator...negative times a negative is positive.

Thanks, Scott. So you're basically agreeing with me. I owe the power
co. for the positive cycles they send me; they owe *me* for the
negative ones. Since they are equal and opposite, they cancel each
other out. Overall, then, zero billing justified.
We are being conned!!!

---
EUREKA!!!

The fallacy lies in your thinking that the power company bills you for
what they send you, when in actuality what you're getting billed for
is what you send back to them!

Consider: they send you a bunch of positive and negative cycles, but
as long as you don't turn a switch on anywhere, those cycles can't
travel back to the power company, so you don't get billed for them.

However, when you do turn on a switch you're providing a way for
_their_ electricity to get back to _them_ and stop beating it's head
against an open switch, so it seems to me that they should pay _you_
for doing them the courtesy of returning their electricity.

--
John Fields

Paul Burridge wrote:
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:42:11 +0000, Scott
wrote:

Huh? It's only 5:30AM here and I just got up but, the ONLY time you
aren't consuming power is at the zero crossing of the voltage and
current sine waves (assuming a purely resistive load where I and E
are in phase). Since you are paying for power, which is P=I X E,
during the negative half cycle, you have, for example, -168 Volts X
-1 Amp = +168 Watts...try it on a calculator...negative times a
negative is positive.

Thanks, Scott. So you're basically agreeing with me. I owe the power
co. for the positive cycles they send me; they owe *me* for the
negative ones. Since they are equal and opposite, they cancel each
other out. Overall, then, zero billing justified.
We are being conned!!!

Polarity is no more than direction of flow. They send you electrons on
one lead, then electrons on the other lead, making twice the number of
electrons, so you gvetting them for 1/2 price as they only count them
the once:-)

Kevin Aylward

http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:54:55 +0000, Paul Burridge wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:42:11 +0000, Scott
wrote:

Huh? It's only 5:30AM here and I just got up but, the ONLY time you
aren't consuming power is at the zero crossing of the voltage and
current sine waves (assuming a purely resistive load where I and E are
in phase). Since you are paying for power, which is P=I X E, during the
negative half cycle, you have, for example, -168 Volts X -1 Amp = +168
Watts...try it on a calculator...negative times a negative is positive.

Thanks, Scott. So you're basically agreeing with me. I owe the power
co. for the positive cycles they send me; they owe *me* for the
negative ones. Since they are equal and opposite, they cancel each
other out. Overall, then, zero billing justified.
We are being conned!!!

I would really believe this is a gag if you hadn't already shown that
you have the mentality of a neocon.

Thanks,
Rich

I guess I'm missing the logic of your argument. Why do you think you
owe them for the positive half of the cycle and they owe you for the
negative half cycle? Both half cycles produce (positive) work in your
appliances, so you owe for both halves of the cycles. I guess that if
you feel that strongly about the issue, you can always disconnect from
the mains and make your own power from solar panels, wind generators,
methane digesters, fuel cells, wood and steam, gas generator, etc. I'm
not sure where in the world you are, but here in the USA, you are not
FORCED into being served by any electric utility. A great place to
start on that issue is http://www.homepower.com and order their
magazine. Tons of people use "renewable" energy sources to power their
homes either in full or in part.

I happen to work for a power utility and we are installing methane
digesters on large farms in the area. Cow poop in equals electricity
and fertilizer out.

YOU can install your own digester, and if, for example, you live in a
farming community with a good supply of manure, you could form an
electric cooperative whereby the MEMBERS of the coop drop off manure,
you shovel it into the digester, methane is produced through
decomposition, collect the gas, use it to fire a generator set and sell
or provide the electricity to the members...By the way, it takes about
750 cows to provide enough manure to have a continuous supply of gas to
fire the generators and produce approximately 750 KW of power...enough
to supply the needs for approximately 50 homes at full load in each
house (240 Volts at 60 Amps). If each house is only using say 5 KW at
any instance, 150 homes could be served from the above noted digester.
You can form your own power plant if you desire (at least here in the
USA)...


Scott

Paul Burridge wrote:
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:42:11 +0000, Scott
wrote:


Huh? It's only 5:30AM here and I just got up but, the ONLY time you
aren't consuming power is at the zero crossing of the voltage and
current sine waves (assuming a purely resistive load where I and E are
in phase). Since you are paying for power, which is P=I X E, during the
negative half cycle, you have, for example, -168 Volts X -1 Amp = +168
Watts...try it on a calculator...negative times a negative is positive.


Thanks, Scott. So you're basically agreeing with me. I owe the power
co. for the positive cycles they send me; they owe *me* for the
negative ones. Since they are equal and opposite, they cancel each
other out. Overall, then, zero billing justified.
We are being conned!!!

There is no cancellation because the postive and negative peaks do not
occur at the same time.


Paul Burridge wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:42:11 +0000, Scott
wrote:

Huh? It's only 5:30AM here and I just got up but, the ONLY time you
aren't consuming power is at the zero crossing of the voltage and
current sine waves (assuming a purely resistive load where I and E are
in phase). Since you are paying for power, which is P=I X E, during the
negative half cycle, you have, for example, -168 Volts X -1 Amp = +168
Watts...try it on a calculator...negative times a negative is positive.

Thanks, Scott. So you're basically agreeing with me. I owe the power
co. for the positive cycles they send me; they owe *me* for the
negative ones. Since they are equal and opposite, they cancel each
other out. Overall, then, zero billing justified.
We are being conned!!!

Multiply your voltage by your
current instant by instant, take the average (gives you power) and
multiply that by the duration in hours and you have your consumption.

They don't bill me instant-by-instant; they bill me for the power they
claim I've used over the course of a three-monthly period. Since power
is the product of voltage and current (and I've proved earlier that
both are zero)
=============
As commented before in this thread you are billed for 'energy' NOT power.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

You must have paid one of them at one time--so they keep sending them!

"Highland Ham" wrote in
:

Multiply your voltage by your
current instant by instant, take the average (gives you power) and
multiply that by the duration in hours and you have your consumption.

They don't bill me instant-by-instant; they bill me for the power they
claim I've used over the course of a three-monthly period. Since power
is the product of voltage and current (and I've proved earlier that
both are zero)
=============
As commented before in this thread you are billed for 'energy' NOT
power.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH



I get billed by the KWH (kilowatthour)

r


--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.