In article ,
Tim Wescott wrote:
[....]
Overtone crystal cuts are not fundamentally different from fundamental
crystal cuts, so to a 1st-order approximation they'll work. Crystals do
have spurious responses that can cause mode jumping, and these responses
don't necessarily map the same way the overtones do, so using a 20MHz
crystal at 100MHz may or may not work, depending on the luck of the
draw. Other than that I don't know of any differences.


There is a whole science of crystals all on its own. When they make a
crystal they make a thin disk of material. You would normally expect the
edge of the disk to simply be at right angles. Instead it looks like
this:



***********************
*
*
*
*
*************************

The exact angle and depth of that chamfer is how they control which
overtones are selected for and which are supressed. In fundamental
crystals, the maker usually grinds the chamfer so as to reduce the 3rd
harmonic responce.


--
--
forging knowledge

Tim, would a 100MHz oscillator module do for you? See DigiKey
CTX318LVCT-ND, for example.

Cheers,
Tom

Hi

have been examining some surplus mobile telephone base station
equipment and discovered that the 70MHz to 455kHz mixers consists of
2x SA602. Since I've never seen an application using two such items,
my guess it for an image rejection type mixer.
Could somebody please guide me into some notes describing such mixer,
possibly using 2x SA602 (and a crystal osc)

Jan-Martin

---
J. M. Noeding, LA8AK, N-4623 Kristiansand
http://home.online.no/~la8ak/c.htm

have been examining some surplus mobile telephone base station
equipment and discovered that the 70MHz to 455kHz mixers consists of
2x SA602. Since I've never seen an application using two such items,
my guess it for an image rejection type mixer.
Could somebody please guide me into some notes describing such mixer,
possibly using 2x SA602 (and a crystal osc)
=======================================
Jan-Martin , With 2xSA602 ,are you sure there isn't a 10.7 MHz
'intermediate' IF as well ?

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 11:13:33 GMT, "Highland Ham"
wrote:

have been examining some surplus mobile telephone base station
equipment and discovered that the 70MHz to 455kHz mixers consists of
2x SA602. Since I've never seen an application using two such items,
my guess it for an image rejection type mixer.
Could somebody please guide me into some notes describing such mixer,
possibly using 2x SA602 (and a crystal osc)
=======================================
Jan-Martin , With 2xSA602 ,are you sure there isn't a 10.7 MHz
'intermediate' IF as well ?

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

Nope, it is shown as
http://www.noding.com/la8ak/12345/images/bd34-rx.jpg
This for NMT450, while earlier NOKIA NMT900 mobile phone BS used
21.4Mz IF as well as 455kHz, while modern 900mc GSM handsets now are
direct conversion. In the actual rig there is a 70MHz xtal filter as
well as 455kHz ceramic filters
The complete page (in Norwegian) is at
http://home.online.no/~la8ak/d28.htm

73, Jan-Martin LA8AK (ex GW5BFV)

---
J. M. Noeding, LA8AK, N-4623 Kristiansand
http://home.online.no/~la8ak/c.htm

J M Noeding wrote:
have been examining some surplus mobile telephone base station
equipment and discovered that the 70MHz to 455kHz mixers consists of
2x SA602. Since I've never seen an application using two such items,
my guess it for an image rejection type mixer.

An image rejecting mixer requires quadrature inputs (both signal and
LO), two mixers, and summation of the outputs i.e.

sin(A+B) = sin(A)cos(B) + cos(A)sin(B)

Also - you're unlikely to have image problems at the second mixer.

J M Noeding wrote:

Hi

have been examining some surplus mobile telephone base station
equipment and discovered that the 70MHz to 455kHz mixers consists of
2x SA602. Since I've never seen an application using two such items,
my guess it for an image rejection type mixer.


Could it be for dual diversity receive?

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:19:00 -0600, Bob Liesenfeld
wrote:



J M Noeding wrote:

Hi

have been examining some surplus mobile telephone base station
equipment and discovered that the 70MHz to 455kHz mixers consists of
2x SA602. Since I've never seen an application using two such items,
my guess it for an image rejection type mixer.


Could it be for dual diversity receive?

there are 4 receivers, two on each board (with 2x SA604 and 4x SA602),
so I think it is a lot of diversity if it was interesting

---
J. M. Noeding, LA8AK, N-4623 Kristiansand
http://home.online.no/~la8ak/c.htm

On 28 Feb 2005 11:23:50 -0800, "Tim Shoppa"
wrote:

Are "overtone" crystals cut differently than "fundamental" crystals?
Or are they just specified differently?

In particular, say I took a garden-variety 20MHz fundamental
microprocessor crystal and instead used it at its fifth overtone,
trying to hit 100 MHz. The LC network is there to make sure that it's
on its fifth overtone. Will this "misuse" mean that the oscillator
will be harder to start up, less stable, more noisy, ???, than a
crystal oscillator made out of a real overtone crystal? I don't mind
if I "miss" 100 MHz by a several tens or hundreds of ppm, as long as
it's stable there.

---
You can use a fundamental mode crystal as an overtone oscillator, but
even if you can get it to oscillate, it won't be generating an
overtone at 100MHz, since overtone modes of oscillation aren't
harmonically related to the fundamental. It's more like the slab of
crystal is vibrating like the drumhead of a steel drum with small
areas of the slab vibrating at higher frequencies, instead of the
entire slab virbarting at just one frequency.

Check out "Chladni patterns" if you're interested.

Here's some pattrens for violin tops and circular plates:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/chladni.html
---

If anyone knows of a place that ships off-the-shelf 100 MHz fifth or
seventh overtone crystals, I can avoid this whole exercise.... :-)

---
Anybody who makes crystals ought to be able to help you out; here's a
start:

http://www.icmfg.com/

--
John Fields

John Fields wrote:
On 28 Feb 2005 11:23:50 -0800, "Tim Shoppa"
wrote:


Are "overtone" crystals cut differently than "fundamental" crystals?
Or are they just specified differently?

In particular, say I took a garden-variety 20MHz fundamental
microprocessor crystal and instead used it at its fifth overtone,
trying to hit 100 MHz. The LC network is there to make sure that it's
on its fifth overtone. Will this "misuse" mean that the oscillator
will be harder to start up, less stable, more noisy, ???, than a
crystal oscillator made out of a real overtone crystal? I don't mind
if I "miss" 100 MHz by a several tens or hundreds of ppm, as long as
it's stable there.


---
You can use a fundamental mode crystal as an overtone oscillator, but
even if you can get it to oscillate, it won't be generating an
overtone at 100MHz, since overtone modes of oscillation aren't
harmonically related to the fundamental. It's more like the slab of
crystal is vibrating like the drumhead of a steel drum with small
areas of the slab vibrating at higher frequencies, instead of the
entire slab virbarting at just one frequency.

Check out "Chladni patterns" if you're interested.

Here's some pattrens for violin tops and circular plates:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/chladni.html
---


If anyone knows of a place that ships off-the-shelf 100 MHz fifth or
seventh overtone crystals, I can avoid this whole exercise.... :-)


---
Anybody who makes crystals ought to be able to help you out; here's a
start:

http://www.icmfg.com/


In an AT cut crystal the overtone modes are close, but not exactly on,
the odd harmonics of the fundamental. Furthermore, all of the
literature that I've read on AT cut crystals reports that they vibrate
in the bulk of the crystal, in shear mode -- see figure 7 he
http://literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5965-7662E.pdf.

Perhaps you're thinking of SAW devices?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com