clifto wrote:
. . .
Doug McLaren mentioned his experience that alkalines have higher
capacities than rechargeables, but I'm finding that my new Eveready
2500 mAH NiMH batteries compete quite well with a fresh set of Energizers.
KenRockwell.com lists alkalines at 2700 to 3135 mAH, sounds reasonable.

The capacity of alkaline cells is much more dependent on discharge rate
than that of NiMH cells. Note the capacities of alkalines shown at the
bottom of the list at
http://www.imaging-resource.com/ACCS/BATTS/BATTS.HTM. With the 5 ohm
load used for those tests, the alkalines have less than 800 mAh
capacity. The capacities you quote would be obtainable only at much
lower current drains. But I didn't look carefully at the page to see if
he used a different cutoff voltage for the alkalines. A NiMH cell is
just about fully discharged when its voltage reaches 1.0 volt, so that's
a common cutoff voltage for testing and using NiMH cells. But an
alkaline cell still has considerable energy remaining at that voltage --
a device has to function properly down to 0.9 volt, or at high drain
more like 0.8 volt per cell to extract all the energy from it.

This is yet one more confounding factor in trying to compare cells of
different chemistries. Performance depends heavily on the particular
application and conditions of use, so a single answer to which is best,
or even which has the greater capacity, simply isn't possible.

You don't need to take my word for any of this -- data sheets for common
cells are readily available on the web, and it takes only a few minutes
and a bit of poking on a calculator to discover this from the curves.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Harry;
9 cells is really an odd (no pun intended) number of cells. Are you sure
that all were from the same date code. For example an 8 pack is a common
purchase, so if you take 8 from one pack and the 9th from another, you
might have an older cell in the bunch. Secondly, I have seen several
products that mechanically chafe the battery wrapper. If this happens a
cell will short out and overheat.

My family and I were in NYC the week of the big blackout , we left just
before it happened!. As it happens. I bought some copper top batteries
from a street vendor 12 for a buck. I got to the hotel and my son
noticed they were chinese imitations called "powercells". They weighed
in at about a third of a duracell and lasted about 20%!! I bet there
were some unhappy campers in Manhattan when those batteries gave out!

Joe


wrote:

snip



let me clarify what I mean by a bad experience. My hand-held Lorain
receiver uses (IIRC) 9 AA cells connected in series. Using Duracells,
I've twice had one of the 9 batteries prematurely fail, with the
remaining 8 only partially discharged. Consequently you replace all 9
cells.


snip

Harry C.




--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"

"Follow The Money"

clifto wrote:
. . .
Roy Lewallen mentions Costco; they haven't had their particular brand
(40 for $10) for literally years here, all they sell is Duracells now
and they want 25% more than Menard's and the Ray-O-Vacs.
. . .

That's too bad. I just got back from Costco, where I found their store
brand Kirkland AA alkalines at $9.59 for 48. They also had Duracells, 16
for $8.19.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Roy Lewallen wrote:
clifto wrote:
Roy Lewallen mentions Costco; they haven't had their particular brand
(40 for $10) for literally years here, all they sell is Duracells now
and they want 25% more than Menard's and the Ray-O-Vacs.

That's too bad. I just got back from Costco, where I found their store
brand Kirkland AA alkalines at $9.59 for 48. They also had Duracells, 16
for $8.19.

Yep. Used to go for the Kirkland units at just about that price; they
disappeared from our local Costco a few years back. I'm thinking their
Duracells are right around that price too, but (1) I don't buy Duracells
and (2) that's over 50 cents per battery when I can get 30 Ray-O-Vacs
for $9.99 any day of the week at Menard's. Sometimes even better at
Menard's; the last batch of AAs I bought were 12 for $2.59 with a $2
rebate on up to two packs, or just under a nickel per Ray-O-Vac.

Back when I got the Kirklands regularly, they were about half the cost
of the name brands I was finding and had a little better than half the
lifetime, not a bad deal at all.

--
If John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination,
my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin.

Roy Lewallen wrote:
clifto wrote:
. . .
Doug McLaren mentioned his experience that alkalines have higher
capacities than rechargeables, but I'm finding that my new Eveready
2500 mAH NiMH batteries compete quite well with a fresh set of Energizers.
KenRockwell.com lists alkalines at 2700 to 3135 mAH, sounds reasonable.

The capacity of alkaline cells is much more dependent on discharge rate
than that of NiMH cells. Note the capacities of alkalines shown at the
bottom of the list at
http://www.imaging-resource.com/ACCS/BATTS/BATTS.HTM. With the 5 ohm
load used for those tests, the alkalines have less than 800 mAh
capacity. The capacities you quote would be obtainable only at much
lower current drains.

And the funny thing is, at a high load such as my GPS III+, those alkalines
with their capacity diminished by the high current draw still last longer
than the NiMH that supposedly like high current draw. (I said the NiMH
compare favorably, not that they outlast alkalines.) I agree with you,
I've been playing aloud with numbers that don't always belong in the
same arena. And too many other factors impinge; I save money using the
NiMH in the GPS, but I'd kill them in flashlights that I routinely
leave on and forget. And then there are those sulfated wet-cell batteries
in the garage... *sigh*

--
If John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination,
my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin.

And the funny thing is, at a high load such as my GPS III+, those
alkalines
with their capacity diminished by the high current draw still last longer
than the NiMH that supposedly like high current draw. (I said the NiMH
compare favorably, not that they outlast alkalines.) I agree with you,
I've been playing aloud with numbers that don't always belong in the
same arena. And too many other factors impinge; I save money using the
NiMH in the GPS, but I'd kill them in flashlights that I routinely
leave on and forget. And then there are those sulfated wet-cell batteries
in the garage... *sigh*
==================
I had the same experience with my ancient Garmin GPS 40 ;alkaline batts held
longer than NiMHs.
Possible reason is that alkalines cells are 1.5 V and NiMHs 1.2 V
It is well possible that although the NiMHs are only considered discharged
when the voltage has dropped to below 1 Volt (per cell) this voltage (or its
multiple) is too low for the GPS to operate, whereas alkalines hold a higher
voltage for a longer period.
I noticed that when the GPS switched itself off when using NiMH batteries
,the cells apparently were not fully discharged.
Using an automatic NiCad /NiMH charger operating with an initial discharge
period as part of the overall cycle,
it took quite a while ,before the NiMH cells were discharged before charging
commenced.

Frank GMØCSZ / KN6WH

Highland Ham wrote:
==================
I had the same experience with my ancient Garmin GPS 40 ;alkaline batts held
longer than NiMHs.
Possible reason is that alkalines cells are 1.5 V and NiMHs 1.2 V
It is well possible that although the NiMHs are only considered discharged
when the voltage has dropped to below 1 Volt (per cell) this voltage (or its
multiple) is too low for the GPS to operate, whereas alkalines hold a higher
voltage for a longer period.

That's a common myth. Neither type has a constant voltage during
discharge, but the NiMH is much more constant than alkaline. Try this
experiment: Put a resistor across an alkaline cell to simulate roughly
the load a GPS receiver would present. With a DVM, check the voltage
every half hour or so, and continue until it reaches 0.8 - 0.9 volts,
which is where it'll be when nearly all its energy is gone. You'll find
that the "1.5" volt alkaline cell voltage will reach 1.25 volts (about
the voltage of a NiMH cell for most of its discharge period) at a point
where half or more of the cell's energy still remains. That is, the cell
voltage will be below 1.25 volts for half or more of its life. If you
repeat the test with a NiMH cell, you'll find that the cell voltage is
1.2 - 1.25 volts for nearly the whole discharge cycle. So for about half
the time, the NiMH cell will have a higher voltage than the alkaline.

Or, you could do it the easy way and look at the curves supplied by the
manufacturers. They're readily available on the web.

If a device quits working at a cell voltage of 1.0 volts, you'll get
nearly all the energy from a NiMH cell, but you'll be throwing away an
alkaline cell that still contains a significant amount of energy.

I noticed that when the GPS switched itself off when using NiMH batteries
,the cells apparently were not fully discharged.
Using an automatic NiCad /NiMH charger operating with an initial discharge
period as part of the overall cycle,
it took quite a while ,before the NiMH cells were discharged before charging
commenced.

Sounds like something was wrong with the GPS. If there was signficant
energy left in the NiMH cells, it quit at a voltage greater than 1.0
volt/cell. And if it did that when using alkaline cells, you'd be
throwing away an even bigger fraction of its total energy than with a
NiMH cell.

There are several reasons why NiMH cells might not do as well as they
should. One is that chargers will often shut down well before the cells
are fully charged. This is particularly common with new NiMH cells,
until they've been cycled a half dozen times or so. Another potential
problem is voltage depression, mistakenly called "memory". This can be
cured by a full discharge to 1.0 volt/cell then recharge. Cells also
have less capacity after long storage or a history of light use and
recharge. Several cycles are necessary to restore full capacity. And of
course, modern NiMH cells at 2500 mAh or more have a lot more capacity
than earlier ones which were as little as 1300 mAh or so -- if you did a
comparison some time ago, things have changed since. A number of fast
chargers don't charge cells to their full capacity. Finally, a
substantial portion of some cells' capacity originates in the marketing
department -- tests I've run show the capacity of some to be pretty
badly inflated (Lenmar is a common brand that comes to mind). They do
take some care and feeding -- if it's too much of a hassle, alkaline
cells are a solution.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Roy ,Tnx for your comments ; I'll do some tests with NiMH cells
using a 'Maha C777Plus' discharger/(pulse)charger and check capacity .
I'll repeat the discharge/charge process a few times to see whether capacity
changes.
I realise that automatic chargers charging at a high current might not
charge any cell to its maximum capacity,
that's why I shall also charge the cell at a lower rate using a LM317
constant current circuit.
with the Maha device the cell's capacity is indicated following the
completion of a discharge period from fully charged to a threshold of just
below 1 Volt
I knew that brand new cells only get their full capacity after having been
cycled a number of times.
BTW : NiCads and NiMHs I use regularly are kept in good condition by
constant trickle charging at a few mA
, again ,with a LM317 constant current circuit ,because specially NiMH cells
have a relatively high self-discharge rate.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

There are several reasons why NiMH cells might not do as well as they
should. One is that chargers will often shut down well before the cells
are fully charged. This is particularly common with new NiMH cells, until
they've been cycled a half dozen times or so. Another potential problem is
voltage depression, mistakenly called "memory". This can be cured by a
full discharge to 1.0 volt/cell then recharge. Cells also have less
capacity after long storage or a history of light use and recharge.
Several cycles are necessary to restore full capacity. And of course,
modern NiMH cells at 2500 mAh or more have a lot more capacity than
earlier ones which were as little as 1300 mAh or so -- if you did a
comparison some time ago, things have changed since. A number of fast
chargers don't charge cells to their full capacity. Finally, a substantial
portion of some cells' capacity originates in the marketing department --
tests I've run show the capacity of some to be pretty badly inflated
(Lenmar is a common brand that comes to mind). They do take some care and
feeding -- if it's too much of a hassle, alkaline cells are a solution.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL