In article ,
Phil Kane wrote:

You didn't miss anything by not trying to look it up. The Commish' in
its infinite wisdom made the Part 15 "intentional radiator" and
"incidental radiator" requirements very complicated several years ago,
with no real thought given to analog laboratory measuring equipment
such as TDRs, signal generators, and Antenna Analyzers.

The old "100 mw input" limits apply only to certain types of devices,
and in general "intentional radiators" have to be certified for
compliance with specified antenna arrangements.

Stuff like that keeps private-sector "FCC Certification Test
Facilities" in business.

Phil,

In practice, is there anything that can be done about uncertified (and
very probably not-technically-compliant) intentional radiators?

Last year, after I bought a new car, I found that the remote-control
keyfob would not work reliably (or at all) when the car was parked in
a local mall's parking lot. When I sniffed around a bit with my HT, I
found that there was a strong, repetitive signal on 433.920 MHz. I
DF'ed to a local restaurant. The waiters at the restaurant use
hand-held remote terminals, which transmit the order (by item number,
apparently) back to a base in the kitchen where it's printed out by
the cooks. This makes for fast and reliable service, but the base is
apparently sending out a heartbeat transmission several times per
second. The signal is strong enough to swamp other devices on 433.920
MHz for around a hundred yards. I can pick it up on my car rig (in
SSB mode) for a couple of blocks in some directions.

One evening when I ate there I expressed curiosity and took a look at
one of the handheld terminals. It has a model-number sticker on the
bottom but there's no hint of a Part 15 registration number. I wrote
down the manufacturer name, found their website, and also dug through
the FCC Part 15 authorization database. I can't find any evidence
that this device (which is imported) was ever certified under Part 15.
I suspect that it's noncertified, and may have been cranked up to a
power level which is beyond the Part 15 limits (and certainly seems
excessive for what it's doing).

I passed the info along to my local ARRL OO, who contacted some lab
guys at the ARRL... they'd never heard of this particular problem. As
far as I know they didn't choose to follow up on the matter.

Since this isn't actually interfering with any licensed ham
transmission I'm trying to make (but only with other Part 15 devices)
I didn't feel that I really have standing to push the matter through
the ARRL/OO or file a formal complaint with the FCC.

My gut feeling at this point is that trying to get the FCC to take
this issue up with the manufacturer, importer, and/or customer
(restaurant) is probably a waste of effort... can you hold out any
hope that there's a way of dealing with the problem?

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

"Phil Kane" wrote

The old "100 mw input" limits apply only to certain types of devices,
and in general "intentional radiators" have to be certified for
compliance with specified antenna arrangements.

The device in question was a Heathkit CB walkie-talkie with a not so super
regenerative receiver that I built in 1963. I suppose that radio was an
"intentional radiator," but its intentions were pretty weak.... Oh, well, it
led to a ham ticket.

Howard

In article ,
"Howard Lester" wrote:

"Phil Kane" wrote

The old "100 mw input" limits apply only to certain types of devices,
and in general "intentional radiators" have to be certified for
compliance with specified antenna arrangements.

The device in question was a Heathkit CB walkie-talkie with a not so super
regenerative receiver that I built in 1963. I suppose that radio was an
"intentional radiator," but its intentions were pretty weak.... Oh, well, it
led to a ham ticket.

Howard

I suspect your unit would be "GrandFathered" by the rules in effect
when it was built. Phil would know for sure.....

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply

In article ,
(Dave Platt) wrote:

In article ,
Phil Kane wrote:

You didn't miss anything by not trying to look it up. The Commish' in
its infinite wisdom made the Part 15 "intentional radiator" and
"incidental radiator" requirements very complicated several years ago,
with no real thought given to analog laboratory measuring equipment
such as TDRs, signal generators, and Antenna Analyzers.

The old "100 mw input" limits apply only to certain types of devices,
and in general "intentional radiators" have to be certified for
compliance with specified antenna arrangements.

Stuff like that keeps private-sector "FCC Certification Test
Facilities" in business.

Phil,

In practice, is there anything that can be done about uncertified (and
very probably not-technically-compliant) intentional radiators?

Last year, after I bought a new car, I found that the remote-control
keyfob would not work reliably (or at all) when the car was parked in
a local mall's parking lot. When I sniffed around a bit with my HT, I
found that there was a strong, repetitive signal on 433.920 MHz. I
DF'ed to a local restaurant. The waiters at the restaurant use
hand-held remote terminals, which transmit the order (by item number,
apparently) back to a base in the kitchen where it's printed out by
the cooks. This makes for fast and reliable service, but the base is
apparently sending out a heartbeat transmission several times per
second. The signal is strong enough to swamp other devices on 433.920
MHz for around a hundred yards. I can pick it up on my car rig (in
SSB mode) for a couple of blocks in some directions.

One evening when I ate there I expressed curiosity and took a look at
one of the handheld terminals. It has a model-number sticker on the
bottom but there's no hint of a Part 15 registration number. I wrote
down the manufacturer name, found their website, and also dug through
the FCC Part 15 authorization database. I can't find any evidence
that this device (which is imported) was ever certified under Part 15.
I suspect that it's noncertified, and may have been cranked up to a
power level which is beyond the Part 15 limits (and certainly seems
excessive for what it's doing).

I passed the info along to my local ARRL OO, who contacted some lab
guys at the ARRL... they'd never heard of this particular problem. As
far as I know they didn't choose to follow up on the matter.

Since this isn't actually interfering with any licensed ham
transmission I'm trying to make (but only with other Part 15 devices)
I didn't feel that I really have standing to push the matter through
the ARRL/OO or file a formal complaint with the FCC.

My gut feeling at this point is that trying to get the FCC to take
this issue up with the manufacturer, importer, and/or customer
(restaurant) is probably a waste of effort... can you hold out any
hope that there's a way of dealing with the problem?

A couple of things he First the Terminal System "May" be covered
by a Station License issued by the FCC, in a different Radio Service.
Second, It may very well be an illegal Import, and not Certified.
Third, the Part 15 tag may have fallen, or worn off.
I had a case where a Fast Food Joint had setup their Drive-Thru Window
Com System on a UHF/Low Freq, on what was thought at the Corporate
Level, an unused Frequency in that town. It so happened, that it was the
Input for the local Sand & Gravel Dealers .25Kw Repeater, and all the
Cement Truck Drivers could hear was, "Do you want Fries with that order,
Sir?"
On Inspection, there was NO Station License Posted, and later revealed,
not even applied for. Corp. forgot and it "Slipped thru the Cracks",
Ya, Right. It was of MAJOR concern to the Sand & Gravel Company to rescue
their repeater, so I had to issue a "Notice Of Violation" unPlug the
Power Cord, for the Base Station, and "SEAL" it, and instruct the
Manager, that if the system went back on the Air, I would be back with
the Federal Marshal, and he would be going to the Gray-Bar Hotel. My Boss
got a call from some Corp. Weenie, complaining about the inspection,
how it was all a mistake, they were Sorry they lost the License
Application, that it was all the Installation Contractors Fault, it will
never happen again, Oh and by the way could we turn it back "ON" as is,
just until we can get this all straighten out?...... Didn't even get the
chance, to comment, as SHE hit the guy with a $5000 forfeiture for
UnLicensed Operation.

Just another day in the life of an FCC Resident Field Agent.....

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 15:23:56 EST, Bruce in alaska
wrote:

A couple of things he First the Terminal System "May" be covered
by a Station License issued by the FCC, in a different Radio Service.

At 433 MHz? Not very likely.

Second, It may very well be an illegal Import, and not Certified.

In this era this is most likely. I sent the necessary contact info to
Dave off-line to get something done about this.

My Boss
got a call from some Corp. Weenie, complaining about the inspection,
how it was all a mistake, they were Sorry they lost the License
Application, that it was all the Installation Contractors Fault, it will
never happen again, Oh and by the way could we turn it back "ON" as is,
just until we can get this all straighten out?......

I've heard that song before. Can it be played in 4 part harmony?
ggg

Didn't even get the chance, to comment, as SHE hit the guy with a
$5000 forfeiture for UnLicensed Operation.

How very much Marlene. "The List" shows that she's still the RA in
Anchorage. I haven't seen her since the Big Let's-Rename-the-Field
Bureau-and-Then-Take-It-Apart conference that we attended 12 years ago
where most of us made up our minds to retire. Are you still in
contact with her?
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 15:21:59 EST, Bruce in alaska
wrote:

I suspect your unit would be "GrandFathered" by the rules in effect
when it was built. Phil would know for sure.....

Either that or "grandmothered"... ggg
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

"Bruce in alaska" wrote

The device in question was a Heathkit CB walkie-talkie with a not so
super
regenerative receiver that I built in 1963. I suppose that radio was an
"intentional radiator," but its intentions were pretty weak.... Oh, well,
it
led to a ham ticket.

Howard

I suspect your unit would be "GrandFathered" by the rules in effect
when it was built. Phil would know for sure.....

Bruce, it's long since been grandfathered to the landfill. :-)

In article ,
Phil Kane wrote:

How very much Marlene. "The List" shows that she's still the RA in
Anchorage. I haven't seen her since the Big Let's-Rename-the-Field
Bureau-and-Then-Take-It-Apart conference that we attended 12 years ago
where most of us made up our minds to retire. Are you still in
contact with her?
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

No, but I did have a chance to talk to Dave, a few years back.
He was the other RA that was left after the Blood-Letting. I
understand they still work out of the Old Anchorage Monitoring
Station Site, near the Airport, but I haven't traveled up that
way for years.
Yea, she was a real "Piece of Work". I wonder if she ever got
"Called UP" as she was a Major in the Reserves, when I worked
for her. I wouldn't want to face her down, if she had a weapon in
hand....

--
Bruce in alaska
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