On Jan 9, 10:50�am, Steve Bonine wrote:
This is a little like saying that the reason commercial shipping moved
from wind power to engines is that they could have a smaller crew.

That was part of the reason. But the biggest reason was cost, of which
crew cost is a factor.

�Cost
is only a minor part of why commercial communications services stopped
using cw.

I think it was a major reason - perhaps *the* major reason, in many
cases.

Technology moves forward. �That TTY teleprinter might cost less t
han a
skilled Morse operator, but more important is that it does the job
better. �

That depends on how you define "better".

Lower cost is one way. A big factor in for-profit companies.

Speed is another, often because "time is money".

The nature of the communications operation is another. For example, if
a message needs to be repeated several times, the use of Morse
operators can mean each one has to receive and then re-send the
message. With teleprinters and tape perforators, a tape can be cut and
sent later. If a message is sent from one location to many, all the
receiving Morse operators can be replaced by teleprinters.

OTOH, electromechanical RTTY equipment was extremely expensive,
complex, large, heavy, noisy and power-hungry compared to typical Morse
Code equipment. It required maintenance, repair and supplies,
and was not 100% error-free.

If you're running a commercial service and you're being paid
real money to move message traffic, you invest in the latest technology
to do it because that's the overall most efficient way to get the job don
e.

Sometimes. The latest technology isn't always the overall most
efficient way.

But those are all details. The main reason is simply the overall
cost.

While I'm nostalgic about the end of cw in the world of commercial
radio, that has nothing to do with my feeling about its use in ham
radio. �One of the things hobbyists do is maintain expertise in s
kills
that might otherwise be lost forever. �I enjoy the mode, and it s
till
has plenty of application in my hobby.

Agreed, but there's more to it.

Unlike commercial services, amateurs are almost all self-funded, self-
trained and unpaid. Most amateurs don't have large amounts of time-
sensitive communications to get from A to B (and maybe C, D, E, etc.)
Things like size, weight, cost, power consumption, complexity, etc.,
can be major factors to the amateur.

Since RTTY seems to be the subject, recall that amateurs have been
using RTTY since at least 1948. Within a few years some amateurs had
fairly sophisticated RTTY setups, often homebrewed from WW2 surplus.
For example, see QST for January, 1960, where W0LQV/AF0LQV describes a
home-made RTTY TU built around a BC-453.

And well I remember K3RTR's RTTY setup, and the station we had at the
University.

But for many amateurs RTTY didn't do the job "better". A teleprinter
cost thousands of dollars new - almost all amateurs used surplus
machines, often obtained through MARS channels. They required paper,
inked ribbons and oil, and not just any would do. Worst of all, they
required additional electronics and a higher-quality receiver and
transmitter.

For many non-amateur applications, these weren't big factors. The cost
of an R-390A receiver and CV-57/URR TU to go on a battleship weren't
showstoppers for, say, the US Navy. John Q. Hamm has somewhat more
limited resources, and expecting all amateurs to follow the practices
of non-amateur services with much greater resources isn't realistic.

If others don't enjoy it, fine. �I don't enjoy EME, and I feel my
self no
less a ham for that.

Funny you should mention EME.

The US Army Signal Corps did moon-radar experiments as early as 1946
and there was a military EME communications system in operation by 1960
or 61. (Once again, the resources available were somewhat more than the
average amateur has). But the military soon abandoned the whole EME
idea, replacing it with satellites. I don't think any other radio
service uses EME, and most never even tried. (btw, a lot of the people
involved in the 1946 moon-radar were hams).

Yet amateurs continue to pursue EME, right now, today. Yes, there's no
separate EME test, but there are a significant number of EME questions
on the license exams.

�I'm not going to denigrate my fellow ham because
they don't care to operate a mode that I happen to enjoy.

Of course not - but that door swings both ways.

73 de Jim, N2EY

On Jan 9, 9:41�am, wrote:
On Jan 9, 10:50 am, Steve Bonine wrote:
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.moderated
From:
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:41:09 EST
Local: Sat, Jan 9 2010 9:41 am
Subject: New club for Morse enthusiasts

Unlike commercial services, amateurs are almost all self-funded, self-
trained and unpaid. Most amateurs don't have large amounts of time-
sensitive communications to get from A to B (and maybe C, D, E, etc.)
Things like size, weight, cost, power consumption, complexity, etc.,
can be major factors to the amateur.

The FCC specifically defines the amateur radio service as being unpaid
("without pecuniary interest" in more legalistic terms).

Your statement about "time-sensitive communications" is unclear.

Big-time amateur contesters sometimes spend $10,000 to $20,000 total for
a large tower and beam antennas for HF. That would buy 5 to 10 Model 28
8-level TTYs new from Teletype Corporation.

Since RTTY seems to be the subject, recall that amateurs have been
using RTTY since at least 1948.

Various teleprinter signals were transmitted by radio in 1928 in other
radio services.

But for many amateurs RTTY didn't do the job "better". A teleprinter
cost thousands of dollars new - almost all amateurs used surplus
machines, often obtained through MARS channels. They required paper,
inked ribbons and oil, and not just any would do. Worst of all, they
required additional electronics and a higher-quality receiver and
transmitter.

"Additional electronics" consisted only of two subsystems, an FM
demodulator and an interface driver for the TTY loop circuits (60 mA
maximum if memory is correct). That commercial or military equipment is
built for very long 24/7 life is a requirement there. That is not a
requirement for amateur operation.

To properly use an NTS CW message delivery requires the official ARRL
Radiogram form, inked ribbons for the typewriter, oil for the
typewriter, perhaps an eyeshade and sleeve garters...:-) shrug

The US Army Signal Corps did moon-radar experiments as early as 1946

Successful experiment. Done as "Project Diana"...in one of the three
laboratories just outside of Fort Monmouth, NJ. I saw all three labs in
1952 while assigned to the Fort Monmouth Signal School.

and there was a military EME communications system in operation by 1960
or 61.

I was unaware of that. In that time-frame, the US Army was engaged in
trying out Troposcatter methods for the end purpose of making
specifications for contract bidding on Troposcatter using low
microwaves. Troposcatter uses literal scattering of radio waves within
the Tropopause of the atmosphere and has no direct radio path from Tx to
Rx. Position of the lunar orbit makes no impact on Troposcatter.

In the time of 1960 through 1970 (approximately), the NSA was
experimenting with its use for both passive intercepts and to active
links for covert operations, on HF through VHF. There are two references
(non-fiction books not about amateur radio) which mention
those. Apparently it was unsuccessful for constant use since no other
books about the CIA, NSA, or DIA mention anything further. Obviously
lunar orbit positions matter to EME.

btw, a lot of the people involved in the 1946 moon-radar were
hams).

1946 was only 1 year after the end of World War II. There was a
considerable number of technical and engineering people still hard at
work doing advanced projects from WWII end through 1946. Project Diana
was a research project for possible military use, to find out if such
moon-bounce methods (the FIRST one done) were consistent and repeatable
according to theory.

Yet amateurs continue to pursue EME, right now, today. Yes, there's no
separate EME test, but there are a significant number of EME questions
on the license exams.

A quick trip to www.ncvec.org will show that current exams (valid until
end of June 2010) have only 6 questions in only the Amateur Extra test.
Those are E3A03 through E3A08. Since there are 738 Questions in the
Extra pool, those EME questions comprise 0.82% of those 738. Doesn't
seem a "significant" number to me. Others' mileage may vary...

The current Question pool has 738 questions for Extra, minimum required
being 500. There are 484 in the General pool, minimum required is 350.
There are 392 in Technician, minimum required is 350. To do all three
tests in one test session is legal but a "memorization" would require
remembering a minimum of 1614 questions having 6456 answers or 8070
total.

73, Len K6LHA

Just saw this link on another site:

http://sites.google.com/site/tomw4bq...ingcwover70wpm

Kinda redefines "high-speed Morse code"!

73 de Jim, N2EY

On Jan 9, 7:50�am, Steve Bonine wrote:
K6LHA wrote:
As to a typical non-amateur-communications service, an old Teletype
Corporation teleprinter cost less than a quarter of the annual salary of
a skilled morse code specialist and had a service life of at least 10
years. That was before WWII...but it applied just after WWII as well.

This is a little like saying that the reason commercial shipping moved
from wind power to engines is that they could have a smaller crew.

Ahem..."One word: WIND." :-)

The change from wind power to machine power meant that all could plan
any sea voyage ahead of time, greatly improving schedules plus being
able to accurately factor in costs of fuel and the "burden" equivalent
to keep the crew paid and fed.

Cost is only a minor part of why commercial communications
services stopped using cw.

I have to disagree. What is hardly ever brought into amateur radio pep
rallies is the enormous court costs involved in lawsuits over manual
telegraphy errors. This was in the 1870 to 1920 time period for the
most part. Didn't matter whether a telegraphy service was at fault or
not, the court costs and news of alleged bad operation cost some
telegram serivices considerable cash.

It is generally an implicit premise in amateur radio higher- speed
manual telegraphy that skilled morse operators are "perfect." There is
no such thing as "perfection" and one missed character, just one, can
have terrible consequences to a company receiving the message with just
one error when a commercial code was used.

Note: It was common in the time period I mentioned for some telegrammers
to use commercial code books of five-character combinations which cost
them just one word to send. Bentley's Commercial Codes was one such
"code book" published in various editions. Anyone with the same code
book could "decipher" the message content so cryptography was not a
factor. Just one single character mistake could make a "code book"
telegram mean something else entirely.

Consider that telegraphers were human and needed physical breaks and the
typical railroad station telegrapher (seen in so many "western" movies)
worked 12-hour days, 6 days a week, and for little money. In urban areas
later, where electrical power was available round-the-clock, one
relatively unskilled operator could tend at least 10 to 20 teleprinters
(needing only paper and ribbons in their daily needs). One maintenance
person could work one shift to tend 10 to 20 teleprinters of the 5-level
type. Teletype Corporation consistently made low-maintenance
teleprinters including 8-level "ASCII" types. Teletype didn't advance
well into electronic terminals and competition with lower-cost,
higher-speed electronic terminals and paper printers was too much for
them.

While I'm nostalgic about the end of cw in the world of
commercial radio, that has nothing to do with my feeling about
its use in ham radio. One of the things hobbyists do is
aintain expertise in skills that might otherwise be lost
forever.

Understood. But there is PLENTY in commercial communications that has
been "lost forever" at least in practice. The website

http://www.hallikainen.org/BroadcastHistory/

has an enormous quantity of information about ALL communications, not
just radio broadcasting. Hal Hallikainen (WA6FDN) dubs his website
"Saving History from the Dumpster" and that dumpster is HUGE. :-)

'Radio' is only 113 1/2 years old. The technology has changed well
beyond three magnitude plateaus in that a-tad-over-a- century time.
Amateur radio can no longer use "Spark" transmitters yet they were once
the overwhelming majority transmitter types. Few radio amateurs can
make DXCC using just diode-detector receivers of the coherer or
galena-crystal type. :-) LF alternators were the first TRUE CW sources
but those were always prohibitively expensive for all but millionaire
amateur hobbyists. Today the ARRL has yet to make a serious push to get
LF amateur bands other than the limited experimental permission to use
"600m." Several European nations have amateur bands on LF. shrug

Even the venerable "Teletype" has gone the way of dumpsters except for a
very few USA amateurs. The more-correct name of "Data" now encompasses
largely-electronic, solid-state terminals, either stand-alone or as
program modifications of PCs. Anyone looking at the mechanical
complexity of electro- mechanical teleprinters (and in reading their
maintenance manuals) will find they are far more complex than
stand-alone electronic terminals. But, "Teletypes" are all physical and
out-in-the-open and therefore "more undertandable" to some folks who
have very little experience in electronics.

I enjoy the mode, and it still has plenty of application
in my hobby. If others don't enjoy it, fine.

Excellent attitude in my viewpoint!

... I'm not going to denigrate my fellow ham because
they don't care to operate a mode that I happen to enjoy.

Even BETTER! I just wish that were the main attitude in the USA but, by
example, it does not seem to be so.

73, Len K6LHA

On Jan 9, 10:51 am, wrote:
On Jan 7, 11:17 am, "Michael J. Coslo" wrote:

On Jan 6, 12:17 pm, wrote:

I will note that the potential tests the pledge
might have to take, depending on the will of their sponsors is just
odd. There should be a competency test, or their shouldn't be.

I don't think it's odd, but that's just me. If somebody wants to know
my Morse Code skills, I can tell them. If that's not enough, I can
show them.

Maybe it's because I am in a college town, and being around
fraternities, the word "test" has more than one meaning, Fraternities
often have tests that really filter out who wants to join, and who
doesn't It's one of those red flag words.



Almost *any* nontrivial requirement is bound to be labeled a "hazing
ritual", "cronyism", "luddite" or other derogatory term by somebody.

Kind of. I think a large part of the discussion, at least for me, is
the idea that this club furthers the use of Morse code. They state it
as one of their purposes. I don't think that their tactic will work.

Only way to know is to try.

Well, yeah. but if I were to promote Morse, I'd do it to people at the
other end of the spectrum.


I'd even go so far as to state that I don't really care if they are an
exclusive club. That's no problem. There is a need for people of a
like mind to congregate. But if a club is one thing while purporting
to be another, I'm inclined to remark about it.

some snippage

Obviously a lot of people who run couldn't join unless they seriously
upped their distance. The membership would be relatively small, but
focused on a specific kind of running.

Seems to me that such a club could and would promote running,
particularly long-distance running. I don't see how that would be a
bad thing.

The new Morse Code club described is similar, IMHO.

I guess w';ll just have to disagree, Jim. let me try a different
analogy.

If I wanted to have an exclusive club, one in which I and others who I
thought had made the grade, and that I wanted to be around, without
annoying new people, I would design it to have a minimum requirement
well beyond what the base requirement was - keeping in mind that the
original test was gone. Then I would have something like prospective
members have to be nominated by people who are already club members. I
would do this in order to be sure that only the right people got in.

Is this the case here? Not necessarily, but who knows.


One thing I have observed among amateurs actually *using* Morse Code is
the friendship and comaraderie (sp?) and general welcoming. I don't
hear the put-downs and such that are claimed by others - not on the
air, anyway. Young or old, newcomer or OT, fast or slow, QRP or high
power, it doesn't make any difference.

Well, my experience has been a little different. On the air, it hasn't
been too bad, but in person, I've been told that despite what I do for
amateur radio, I am a second class Ham because I'm not a regular user
of CW. I've been told that my physical issues notwithstanding, I can
never be a first class Ham, because it is like an athlete. Not
everyone can be a professional football player, because not everyone
has the physical attributes. My hearing precludes me being a real Ham.

And believe it or not, I was once called insane because I gave the
same number of QSO points to RTTY and PSK31 QSO's for scoring a
contest. That's the exact wording. Some of these folks wanted the
double point value to be exclusively for CW Ops, and were outraged
that I offered it to any other modes. That was personally
disappointing to say the least, because I've always stood up for the
mode.

Now as far as that goes, no problem. I'm opinionated and realize that
the nail that sticks up is the one that gets the hammer. For me, it's
just data points. I appreciate the mode, and will continue to support
and promote it, because of it's historical, practical, and technical
value. But I've learned to not expect any appreciation for that.
Anyhow, it's been a good thread.

-73 de Mike N3LI -

On Jan 11, 6:48�pm, "Michael J. Coslo" wrote:

Maybe it's because I am in a college town, and being around
fraternities, the word "test" has more than one meaning,
Fraternities
often have tests that really filter out who wants to join, and who
doesn't It's one of those red flag words.

Ah - good point.

if I were to promote Morse, I'd do it to people at the
other end of the spectrum.

Clubs like FISTS and SKCC do that.

I guess w';ll just have to disagree, Jim.

No problem!

let me try a different analogy.

If I wanted to have an exclusive club, one in
which I and others who I
thought had made the grade, and that I
wanted to be around, without
annoying new people, I would design it to
have a minimum requirement
well beyond what the base requirement
was - keeping in mind that the
original test was gone. Then I would
have something like prospective
members have to be nominated by
people who are already club members.

Which raises the proverbial chicken-and-egg question of how the club
could ever get started....

I
would do this in order to be sure
that only the right people got in.

Is this the case here? Not necessarily, but who knows.

One thing is for su the club appears to be growing fast. I printed
out the member roster a few days ago, and already it's way outdated
because there's a lot more members.

N2EY previously wrote:

One thing I have observed among amateurs
actually *using* Morse Code is
the friendship and comaraderie (sp?) and
general welcoming. I don't
hear the put-downs and such that are
claimed by others - not on the
air, anyway. Young or old, newcomer or
OT, fast or slow, QRP or high
power, it doesn't make any difference.

Well, my experience has been a little different.
On the air, it hasn't
been too bad, but in person, I've been told that
despite what I do for
amateur radio, I am a second class Ham
because I'm not a regular user
of CW.

I've been told that my physical issues notwithstanding, I can
never be a first class Ham, because it is like an athlete. Not
everyone can be a professional football player, because not
everyone
has the physical attributes. My hearing precludes me being
a real Ham.

I disagree with that very strongly!

Of course not everybody can be a world-class athlete nor even a
"professional" one. But almost everyone can be an athlete at somelevel.

I agree with Bill Rodgers, the famous marathoner (won Boston a couple
times IIRC). When someone asked him who *he* admires, he pointed to the
folks who run a marathon in four hours, as compared to his two-
hours-and-change. He said something on the order of 'they're out there
twice as long as I am, trying just as hard!'

And believe it or not, I was once called insane
because I gave the
same number of QSO points to RTTY and
PSK31 QSO's for scoring a
contest. That's the exact wording.

I've been called a lot worse, and a lot more times, for a lot less.

Some of these folks wanted the
double point value to be exclusively for CW Ops,
and were outraged
that I offered it to any other modes. That was personally
disappointing to say the least, because I've always stood up for the mo
de.

The operative word there is "some".

IMHO, when a person resorts to things like name-calling and personal
insults, it really says a lot more about the name-caller than the name-
callee. (if that's even a word).

Now as far as that goes, no problem. I'm
opinionated and realize that
the nail that sticks up is the one that gets
the hammer. For me, it's
just data points. I appreciate the mode,
and will continue to support
and promote it, because of it's historical,
practical, �and technical
value.

That's good.

But I've learned to not expect any appreciation for that.

Well, I appreciate it!

One of these years the PA QSO party will fall on a weekend when I don't
have ten other things going on - and then watch out!

Anyhow, it's been a good thread.

It's not over yet...

73 de Jim, N2EY

Michael J. Coslo wrote:

If I wanted to have an exclusive club, one in which I and others who I
thought had made the grade, and that I wanted to be around, without
annoying new people, I would design it to have a minimum requirement
well beyond what the base requirement was - keeping in mind that the
original test was gone. Then I would have something like prospective
members have to be nominated by people who are already club members. I
would do this in order to be sure that only the right people got in.

Is this the case here? Not necessarily, but who knows.

It looks to me like your words exactly describe the membership
requirements for the new organization. I'm assuming that the mention of
competency testing is really only for show.

And fine, if that's what these folks want, then they have as much right
to organize as any other group. It's not something that turns my crank,
but that just means that I won't join.

Well, my experience has been a little different. On the air, it hasn't
been too bad, but in person, I've been told that despite what I do for
amateur radio, I am a second class Ham because I'm not a regular user
of CW. I've been told that my physical issues notwithstanding, I can
never be a first class Ham, because it is like an athlete. Not
everyone can be a professional football player, because not everyone
has the physical attributes. My hearing precludes me being a real Ham.

I'm sorry to hear that. There are a lot of hams out there, and any time
you get a large group of humans together, you're going to find a certain
number of insensitive idiots. Frankly I think there are more hams at
both ends of the normal curve than in the general population. That
means that there are more idiots, but there are more Really Good People.

You might be interested that my experience has been exactly the opposite
here in the local ham group. There is exactly one other cw operator in
the club, and he only shows up at the Field Day operation. The club
members ridicule cw. They think it is completely stupid and cannot
understand why anyone would use it. Their term for cw ops is "no talkers".

And believe it or not, I was once called insane because I gave the
same number of QSO points to RTTY and PSK31 QSO's for scoring a
contest. That's the exact wording. Some of these folks wanted the
double point value to be exclusively for CW Ops, and were outraged
that I offered it to any other modes. That was personally
disappointing to say the least, because I've always stood up for the
mode.

Designing the rules for a contest is one of those classic lose/lose
situations. Not that there's any excuse for someone using the term
"insane", but if you had done it the other way and kept the bonus
exclusively for cw then it would have been the RTTY and PSK31 ops who
were upset. You can't please all of the people . . .

Now as far as that goes, no problem. I'm opinionated and realize that
the nail that sticks up is the one that gets the hammer. For me, it's
just data points. I appreciate the mode, and will continue to support
and promote it, because of it's historical, practical, and technical
value. But I've learned to not expect any appreciation for that.
Anyhow, it's been a good thread.

Agreed completely.