Dee Flint wrote:
...
It is not "logic" when it depends on other, unpredictable factors to cause
the growth. If it it not predictable, it is not yet logic. Logic depends
on the known to project the future. I accept that these are all just
guesses. We are indulging in some idle speculation.


Logic guides the use of "probability and statistics" and this is what we
are dealing with here. Although that law contains unknowns and
variables, at least the general direction can be logically deduced, the
pitfalls cited, the games recorded, the evil personalities noted--it is
as I originally stated--I stand behind that 100%--logic suggest EXACTLY
what I stated.

You are NOT indulging in idle speculation. Like a chronic abuser or
wife beater, you hide in the shadows, you have denied your crimes,
carefully cloaking them in methods, maneuvers and actions which can
"argued" to be of a different nature--however, the bruises are
noticeable! You belittle NON-CW hams in the subtle, sneaky, perverse,
under-handed and imbecilic ways of human trash ...

Act like an adult and treat those who deserve it as such. I know the
temptation is great to do otherwise--all these children running about
can distract one here in the r.r.a groups ...

It is in no way intended to "belittle" the non-CW licensees. One of the
arguments was that the CW test requirement kept a significant number of
people out of ham radio. Such statements were made by a wide variety of
people included some who were code tested. Others (including myself)
believe that there are not large numbers of people waiting in the wings to
enter ham radio (upgrade yes, enter no). Well the CW test requirement is
gone. It is perfectly logical to see if it has a significant effect on
amateur radio growth.


Without a doubt, the CW element HAS made it just difficult enough that
others choose other hobbies. ONLY a fool would claim the
contrary--think before you describe yourself as a fool ...

Changes will happen ... it is only a matter of time and people finding
out the old "King of the Hill" bunch are gone, their bite is no more,
those are only the false teeth of the old invalids you see before you
"watch dogging" the gates of ham radio ...

The intent of this is to get people to pay attention to the growth or lack
thereof for the very reason that "history is watching". The effect of this
change could be significant in shaping future regulatory changes. It would
be foolish for people and organizations not to watch for the effect.


Yes. Many have given up on the imbecilic old hams guarding the gates of
amateur radio. We need to find them and invite them back--the remaining
chicken banders need informing ... there would be no HISTORY without
people, perhaps I should have said "sane people are watching."

Regards,
JS

"John Smith I" wrote in message
...
Dee Flint wrote:
...
It is not "logic" when it depends on other, unpredictable factors to
cause the growth. If it it not predictable, it is not yet logic. Logic
depends on the known to project the future. I accept that these are all
just guesses. We are indulging in some idle speculation.


Logic guides the use of "probability and statistics" and this is what we
are dealing with here. Although that law contains unknowns and variables,
at least the general direction can be logically deduced, the pitfalls
cited, the games recorded, the evil personalities noted--it is as I
originally stated--I stand behind that 100%--logic suggest EXACTLY what I
stated.


While logic uses probability and statistics, you have presented exactly
none. You cannot assign a probability value to the other factors that you
name. Therefore they are not usable in logic.

You are NOT indulging in idle speculation. Like a chronic abuser or wife
beater, you hide in the shadows, you have denied your crimes, carefully
cloaking them in methods, maneuvers and actions which can "argued" to be
of a different nature--however, the bruises are noticeable! You belittle
NON-CW hams in the subtle, sneaky, perverse, under-handed and imbecilic
ways of human trash ...


You are wrong. There were several code-tested hams who predicted huge
growth in amateur radio due to eliminating the requirement. As I said
before, it behooves us to watch the numbers and see if it works. To ignore
it is to attempt to shape the future with insufficient data.

Act like an adult and treat those who deserve it as such. I know the
temptation is great to do otherwise--all these children running about can
distract one here in the r.r.a groups ...

It is in no way intended to "belittle" the non-CW licensees. One of the
arguments was that the CW test requirement kept a significant number of
people out of ham radio. Such statements were made by a wide variety of
people included some who were code tested. Others (including myself)
believe that there are not large numbers of people waiting in the wings
to enter ham radio (upgrade yes, enter no). Well the CW test requirement
is gone. It is perfectly logical to see if it has a significant effect
on amateur radio growth.


Without a doubt, the CW element HAS made it just difficult enough that
others choose other hobbies. ONLY a fool would claim the contrary--think
before you describe yourself as a fool ...


I am simply trying to get a handle on the actual numbers of people that
would have chosen other hobbies because of the code. And have everyone,
those who predict little or no affect and those who predict a lot of effect
to pay attention to what actually happens. If people have fun in a pool,
they will pay attention to the numbers.

I'd be ecstatic if we had a huge growth. However, I happen to think that is
unrealistic since most people I know outside of ham radio hardly know it
even exists let alone the requirements to participate.

Changes will happen ... it is only a matter of time and people finding out
the old "King of the Hill" bunch are gone, their bite is no more, those
are only the false teeth of the old invalids you see before you "watch
dogging" the gates of ham radio ...


Why are you so convinced that there are significant numbers of such people?
Very few people that I know fall into this category. As stated before, our
club members and others I know are very busy spreading the word on the
change regardless of whether they agree with it.

The intent of this is to get people to pay attention to the growth or
lack thereof for the very reason that "history is watching". The effect
of this change could be significant in shaping future regulatory changes.
It would be foolish for people and organizations not to watch for the
effect.


Yes. Many have given up on the imbecilic old hams guarding the gates of
amateur radio. We need to find them and invite them back--the remaining
chicken banders need informing ... there would be no HISTORY without
people, perhaps I should have said "sane people are watching."

Regards,
JS

Why do you seem convinced that there are significant numbers of oldsters
trying to "guard the gates"? It is certainly inconsistent with my
experience. All I've seen are a limited handful. They've had no success
since there are so many other good oldsters out there helping out.

Why are you being derogatory towards those who operate Citizen's Band? I
know many nice people who operate CB. My neighbor for one. So far he has
evinced no interest in ham radio even though we've demonstrated amateur
radio to him. He's quite happy with his circle of friends on CB and has no
interest in going further. Since he's shown no interest, we never got
around to discussing the requirements.

Dee, N8UZE

From: John Smith I on Sun, Dec 31 2006 10:07 am

Dee Flint wrote:

...

Dee:

I don't have to point out to you that I am UN-politically correct,
indeed, I take great pride in being so ...

Okay, John, be prepared to be in Dee's "killfile." She
doesn't care for those who are Un-politically correct.
:-)

So, I am going to lay it on you straight. Because you are here in a
male dominated HOBBY--from the get-go, I accept you are probably a bit
"taller" than most women you stand next to. I'd also suspect you
capable of a bit more logic than most women I have ever run across, my
present XYL excluded.

What I have presented to you IS LOGIC. Anything more would be "just a
guess." Fools make guesses when logic avails them ...

This "pool" is basically some nattering among the
morse mavens and/or a means of making nice-nice with
chatty messaging on a subject nobody can accurately
predict. I think it's supposed to be like the hostess
at a party being very busy with nagging everyone to
have a good time. :-)

This is just a means to "belittle" non-CW licensees, I'd expect more
from you--stand away from the "good 'ole boys", now is your chance to
show what metal you are made of ... history is watching.

This "pool" *IS* a means to belittle non-coders. Look
at the past in he Dee is an avowed OOK CW morse-
person. She isn't about to suddenly embrace a landmark
change in elimination of the code test with enthusiasm.

Please pay close attention to what is occurring here. The good 'ole
boys are about their business as usual, no change. Even, at this point,
the FCC has had to throw it "in their face" that the ploy of using CW to
limit licensees will NO longer be permitted.

Absolutely. :-(

Now these hams, who's time has and gone, keep right up with the
insanity--like some alcoholic so addicted to bad behavior, they have
become 'addicted' and can no longer help themselves. These men and
women now need to be seen for what they are. If they hold offices in
amateur institutions or clubs, they need to removed and replaced. They
need to be taken to task, their little control games need to be stopped.
They need to be "put on a shelf, and put away from harming the hobby."

THAT ain't gonna happen, John.

Those mentally-conditioned morse mavens "know what is best
for ham radio" and aren't going to be put away without an
enormous fight to retain their power. Worse yet, they have
supporters who are as mentally-conditioned and will fight
with them. [they also know "what is best" (they say)]

Good grief, I see a "Sunni v. Shiite" continuing "battle"
for the future in US amateur radio. Or make it the
Catholics v. Protestants in Northern Ireland. Constant
fight-fight-fight over "supremacy." Idiotic.

Don't be one of them ...

She will be...and that's no guess or logic. Dee knows
what is best for amateur radio. Anything new or
revolutionary gets placed in her killfile where she
won't see it...after her trying to spank the "kiddies"
who dare speak against her. :-(

LA

Dee Flint wrote:

You are wrong. There were several code-tested hams who predicted huge
growth in amateur radio due to eliminating the requirement. As I said
before, it behooves us to watch the numbers and see if it works. To ignore
it is to attempt to shape the future with insufficient data.


You are more than entitled to your opinion.

Why are you so convinced that there are significant numbers of such people?
Very few people that I know fall into this category. As stated before, our
club members and others I know are very busy spreading the word on the
change regardless of whether they agree with it.


Because I do chat with the angry truckers and cb'ers who bypassed ham
radio because of CW--try to get out more. You seem to have developed a
case of "Ham Vision", closely related to Tunnel Vision, yanno?

Why do you seem convinced that there are significant numbers of oldsters
trying to "guard the gates"? It is certainly inconsistent with my
experience. All I've seen are a limited handful. They've had no success
since there are so many other good oldsters out there helping out.


Because I share the newsgroups with these ancient relics? Because their
attitudes drip with "I am special?" And, "Trailer Trash CB'ers?" Gee
Dee, I thought you much brighter than that, could be the people you are
hanging about with, like I said, "Try to get out more!"

Why are you being derogatory towards those who operate Citizen's Band? I
know many nice people who operate CB. My neighbor for one. So far he has
evinced no interest in ham radio even though we've demonstrated amateur
radio to him. He's quite happy with his circle of friends on CB and has no
interest in going further. Since he's shown no interest, we never got
around to discussing the requirements.


You are about to meet some of those "nice angry CB'ers." grin

Regards,
JS

wrote:
...

Len:
Everyone doing the guessing is working with OLD paradigms.
There's NEVER been a time when there was NO code test, at
least since 1934. Nobody's been exposed to that kind of
environment/situation...all they've got is the old times
when there was ALWAYS a code test.


Well, since that paragraph is totally composed of logic--hope you don't
expect an argument from me! YEP, pretty much like that alright ...

That's entirely possible but I'd say Unlikely with a
capital U. Just too many old farts ready to jump in
with the standard "they 'know' what is good for ham
radio!" AS IF. :-) [if they 'already knew' why
didn't they DO something about it?]


Again, hope you don't expect an argument from me. Heck, these
newsgroups are full of such and only prove the very point you make here ...

But, but, but, the NEW DESIGNS in "stagnated equipment"
have ALREADY HAPPENED, beginning between 30 and 20 years
ago. ALL by manufacturers, generally off-shore...by
Yaesu, Kenwood, Icom, JRC. Ten-Tec is struggling to stay
in the market (they are a USA company) but isn't achieving
market dominance at all. Note: W1AW uses Harris
transmitters (a pro user market dominant company).


Now here, I disagree with you. That is STILL ancient technology,
thinking and design. See that computer in front of you, when you can no
longer tell the difference between that computer and your rig--WELCOME
TO THE NEW MILLENNIUM!!!

All them handheld VHF and above radios for the US ham
market were pioneered for commercial and military users,
not hams. [this newsgroup doesn't have regulars who
bother with the world above 30 MHz so they are unfamiliar
with it] [maybe Hans Brakob does...but Hans hasn't been
around much in the last year]


Again, no argument here ...

I'll go with that...but it's been a bit late. When one
American in three had a cellphone subscription (two years
ago according to the Bureau of Census) it is UNlikely
that morsemanship on HF to "talk to foreign lands" is
going to be some catchy, with-it motivation. Ordinary
folk can just dial direct on the telephone system at
lesser cost than paying $2K for a "free" ham station.


Again, absolutely. However, if ham radio is in vogue, pocket books will
open and the director calls, "ACTION!"

An ACTOR could begin the publicity. Imagine...a HAM ACTOR!
I can see the ARRL news headlines now...BSEG

Of course, the L.A. area is rather FULL of "ham actors"
who only need AMPAS and SAG "licenses" (actually registry)
to do their "ham" thing. :-)

"There's no business like show business..." :-)

Regards,
LA


Len, Len, Len. Most hams are the slowest dimwits I have ever had the
misfortune to participate with. Now don't get me wrong, mixed up in
their senseless mass are a few sheer geniuses, but the ratio is about
(100 dummies)1 bright) and just to find sane hams one has to cope with
the ratio of (10 insane)1 sane).

But then, you already knew that ...

Warmest regards,
JS

"John Smith I" wrote in message
...
Dee Flint wrote:

You are wrong. There were several code-tested hams who predicted huge
growth in amateur radio due to eliminating the requirement. As I said
before, it behooves us to watch the numbers and see if it works. To
ignore it is to attempt to shape the future with insufficient data.


You are more than entitled to your opinion.

Why are you so convinced that there are significant numbers of such
people? Very few people that I know fall into this category. As stated
before, our club members and others I know are very busy spreading the
word on the change regardless of whether they agree with it.


Because I do chat with the angry truckers and cb'ers who bypassed ham
radio because of CW--try to get out more. You seem to have developed a
case of "Ham Vision", closely related to Tunnel Vision, yanno?


Again they aren't here. Perhaps they are local to your area. The
propagation being what it is at the bottom of the sunspot cycle, the CB band
is mostly local communications at the moment.

Why do you seem convinced that there are significant numbers of oldsters
trying to "guard the gates"? It is certainly inconsistent with my
experience. All I've seen are a limited handful. They've had no success
since there are so many other good oldsters out there helping out.


Because I share the newsgroups with these ancient relics? Because their
attitudes drip with "I am special?" And, "Trailer Trash CB'ers?" Gee
Dee, I thought you much brighter than that, could be the people you are
hanging about with, like I said, "Try to get out more!"


Have you noticed though that there are only a handful of people in the
newsgroups, especially in this one? They repeate the same things over and
over. And yes I repeat mine too. The limited number of people that hang
out here is hardly a representative example.

And if you will notice I never subscribed to the arguments of most of those
who post here. I've never believed it code testing was supposed to be any
kind of limiter, lid filter, or rite of passage. I also notice that you cut
those sections of my posts referring to the fact that I believe those
arguments to be invalid and harmful to amateur radio just as I believe the
argument that many people are unable to learn code is invalid and harmful.

In additon, I have never made any derogatory comments about people on the
Citizen's Band. You must be confusing me with someone else. Like any other
group, there are good people and bad people.

Why are you being derogatory towards those who operate Citizen's Band? I
know many nice people who operate CB. My neighbor for one. So far he
has evinced no interest in ham radio even though we've demonstrated
amateur radio to him. He's quite happy with his circle of friends on CB
and has no interest in going further. Since he's shown no interest, we
never got around to discussing the requirements.


You are about to meet some of those "nice angry CB'ers." grin

Regards,
JS

Like I said, there is a wide range of people in CB and I've never referred
to them by any of the multitude of derogatory names that people have come up
with.

Dee, N8UZE

Dee Flint wrote:
...

Like I said, "Try to get out more."

I live at a major trucking hub, Stockton, CA--the anus of the world.
Sacramento, the capital, is but a scant 40 miles on either hwy 99 or hwy
5. It is truckers who still influence this being a "CB hotspot." I
have my 10M rig always setting on CH. 17--27.165Mhz. While CH. 19 to
CH. 21 (27.185Mhz-27.215Mhz) are usually considered the "truckers
channels", here it is CH. 17 or you talk to yourself.

As the mooseluums take over trucking, buying up all the small trucking
companies, I notice their numbers are declining--truckers with CB's/10M
equipment, still much, much more action there than the ham
bands--especially local traffic.

Frankly, I wonder if most here don't "live in another world?" Of
course, I do--living here. Don't worry though, for me, next year I plan
on leaving california. The loonies here can have it ...

Regards,
JS

"John Smith I" wrote in message
...
wrote:
...

Len:
Everyone doing the guessing is working with OLD paradigms.
There's NEVER been a time when there was NO code test, at
least since 1934. Nobody's been exposed to that kind of
environment/situation...all they've got is the old times
when there was ALWAYS a code test.


Well, since that paragraph is totally composed of logic--hope you don't
expect an argument from me! YEP, pretty much like that alright ...

That's entirely possible but I'd say Unlikely with a
capital U. Just too many old farts ready to jump in
with the standard "they 'know' what is good for ham
radio!" AS IF. :-) [if they 'already knew' why
didn't they DO something about it?]


Again, hope you don't expect an argument from me. Heck, these newsgroups
are full of such and only prove the very point you make here ...

But, but, but, the NEW DESIGNS in "stagnated equipment"
have ALREADY HAPPENED, beginning between 30 and 20 years
ago. ALL by manufacturers, generally off-shore...by
Yaesu, Kenwood, Icom, JRC. Ten-Tec is struggling to stay
in the market (they are a USA company) but isn't achieving
market dominance at all. Note: W1AW uses Harris
transmitters (a pro user market dominant company).


Now here, I disagree with you. That is STILL ancient technology, thinking
and design. See that computer in front of you, when you can no longer
tell the difference between that computer and your rig--WELCOME TO THE NEW
MILLENNIUM!!!

All them handheld VHF and above radios for the US ham
market were pioneered for commercial and military users,
not hams. [this newsgroup doesn't have regulars who
bother with the world above 30 MHz so they are unfamiliar
with it] [maybe Hans Brakob does...but Hans hasn't been
around much in the last year]


Again, no argument here ...

Too bad. Several of us do quite a bit of work above 30MHz. The strange
thing is other than the repeaters, I seldom find any Technicians out there.


I'll go with that...but it's been a bit late. When one
American in three had a cellphone subscription (two years
ago according to the Bureau of Census) it is UNlikely
that morsemanship on HF to "talk to foreign lands" is
going to be some catchy, with-it motivation. Ordinary
folk can just dial direct on the telephone system at
lesser cost than paying $2K for a "free" ham station.


Again, absolutely. However, if ham radio is in vogue, pocket books will
open and the director calls, "ACTION!"


Anything that depends on being "in vogue" can just as quickly go "out of
vogue". I want people who are interested in amateur radio not a
"fashionable activity".

An ACTOR could begin the publicity. Imagine...a HAM ACTOR!
I can see the ARRL news headlines now...BSEG

Of course, the L.A. area is rather FULL of "ham actors"
who only need AMPAS and SAG "licenses" (actually registry)
to do their "ham" thing. :-)

"There's no business like show business..." :-) Regards,
LA


Len, Len, Len. Most hams are the slowest dimwits I have ever had the
misfortune to participate with. Now don't get me wrong, mixed up in their
senseless mass are a few sheer geniuses, but the ratio is about (100
dummies)1 bright) and just to find sane hams one has to cope with the
ratio of (10 insane)1 sane).

But then, you already knew that ...


That's probably the same ratio as in the rest of the population. Why should
ham radio be any different?

Warmest regards,
JS

Dee, N8UZE

Dee Flint wrote:
...

Too bad. Several of us do quite a bit of work above 30MHz. The strange
thing is other than the repeaters, I seldom find any Technicians out there.


Really, know about spread spectrum? Know anyone to give you some
frequency ring keys? Yanno, there be pirates in those waters bucko!
Perhaps you have noticed a bit more background noise ... ever see any
"strange activity" there, or hear conversations which seem to be spoken
in code? Hear strangely modulated signals?


Anything that depends on being "in vogue" can just as quickly go "out of
vogue". I want people who are interested in amateur radio not a
"fashionable activity".


There ya go! Right close to the real problem now, aren't we. Let me
be blunt--just to make the point hit home ... who gives a damn what Dee
wants? Don't hold yer breath ...


That's probably the same ratio as in the rest of the population. Why should
ham radio be any different?


Because in software engineering the ratios are about backwards to those
found in "amateur radio", because in colleges the ratio is about
backwards to those found in amateur radio ... as a matter of fact, among
all technical minded people that ratio is about backwards to what is
found here--does that provide a clue to what is wrong here? You
beginning to see the matrix?

However, got some damn good brass pounders here! They probably can play
a musical instrument too! Well, at least a kazoo. grin

Regards,
JS

wrote:
...
Okay, John, be prepared to be in Dee's "killfile." She
doesn't care for those who are Un-politically correct.
:-)


I'd be crushed ... but, then again, I have gotten over worse.

This "pool" is basically some nattering among the
morse mavens and/or a means of making nice-nice with
chatty messaging on a subject nobody can accurately
predict. I think it's supposed to be like the hostess
at a party being very busy with nagging everyone to
have a good time. :-)


Well, yeah, I can see the similarity you point out ...

This "pool" *IS* a means to belittle non-coders. Look
at the past in he Dee is an avowed OOK CW morse-
person. She isn't about to suddenly embrace a landmark
change in elimination of the code test with enthusiasm.


Yes. Pretty obvious, huh? Makes you wonder why some find it so hard to
get that little point--suppose we are just gifted? Maybe we escaped the
"dumbing down" of ham radio. I knew that incessant habit of banging
that key for hours on end would do some type of damage--now in looking
back, who would have supposed it would have done that much brain damage?
Ya' think the surgeon general should make 'em put a warning on side of
the box the key comes in?

Please pay close attention to what is occurring here. The good 'ole
boys are about their business as usual, no change. Even, at this point,
the FCC has had to throw it "in their face" that the ploy of using CW to
limit licensees will NO longer be permitted.

Absolutely. :-(


Sure, you say that. But then, look at the difficulty others have with
the concept!

Now these hams, who's time has and gone, keep right up with the
insanity--like some alcoholic so addicted to bad behavior, they have
become 'addicted' and can no longer help themselves. These men and
women now need to be seen for what they are. If they hold offices in
amateur institutions or clubs, they need to removed and replaced. They
need to be taken to task, their little control games need to be stopped.
They need to be "put on a shelf, and put away from harming the hobby."

THAT ain't gonna happen, John.


Len, Len, Len. I see what you mean. They have become a legend in their
own mind and now the opium hallucinations have a life of their own ...

Those mentally-conditioned morse mavens "know what is best
for ham radio" and aren't going to be put away without an
enormous fight to retain their power. Worse yet, they have
supporters who are as mentally-conditioned and will fight
with them. [they also know "what is best" (they say)]

Good grief, I see a "Sunni v. Shiite" continuing "battle"
for the future in US amateur radio. Or make it the
Catholics v. Protestants in Northern Ireland. Constant
fight-fight-fight over "supremacy." Idiotic.


Yeah. Too bad a 12 year old could beat 'em. They have even began to
notice that the younger generations just ignore 'em.


She will be...and that's no guess or logic. Dee knows
what is best for amateur radio. Anything new or
revolutionary gets placed in her killfile where she
won't see it...after her trying to spank the "kiddies"
who dare speak against her. :-(

LA


You might be right, perhaps she has smoked the opium pipe much too often
with 'em

Warmest regards,
JS