You are correct in one regard....."Don't hold your breath" is about the best
comment I have heard here. Existing technicians may choose to utilize their
new privileges but the dropping of morse code completely is not going to
bring up our numbers any more than where we are at right now from a month to
month basis.

You could hand out free licenses with $100 bills attached to them but if
people are not aware of that, they are not going to be giving out that many.
It's all about the public relations/promotion of the hobby.


--
Ryan, KC8PMX
FF1-FF2-MFR-(pending NREMT-B!)
--. --- -.. ... .- -. --. . .-.. ... .- .-. . ..-. .. .-. . ..-.
... --. .... - . .-. ...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

Once the official FCC changes are made, by whatever method, I wonder
how long it will take the unlicensed to become licensed...Now that
there's NO excuse remaining?

There's always an excuse, Steve.

Here are some predictions for ya:

The dropping of the code test will not be accompanied by a significant
change
in the written exams.

The dropping of the code test will not be accompanied by a significant,
sustained increase in growth rate of the ARS. There may be a short term
surge,
and lots of upgrades, but total numbers will not skyrocket.

The dropping of the code test will not be accompanied by a significant
change
in the modes and technologies used by hams. There will not be a
technorevolution, nor big increases in experimentation or homebrewing.
Just
more of the same of what has been going on.

---

Let's see what happens in the UK. RSGB and RA have been pushing to drop
the
code test for a long time. Maybe they won't be disappointed.

Just wondering.

Don't hold yer breath. The usual bureaucratic delay will slow things down
here
in the USA. And remember, those who get the licenses after the change will
be
raw, inexperienced newcomers, who will need our help and guidance as they
are
welcomed into the ARS.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
Existing technicians may choose to utilize their
new privileges

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there've been any "new
privivleges" confered yet.

but the dropping of morse code completely is not going to
bring up our numbers any more than where we are at right now from a month
to
month basis.

Probably correct.

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

Once the official FCC changes are made, by whatever method, I wonder
how long it will take the unlicensed to become licensed...Now that
there's NO excuse remaining?

There's always an excuse, Steve.

Here's and interesting query...and probabbly a tad trollish, but I wonder...

How long (or short, actually) will it take for many of the No-code Techs
that used to proclaim that their VHF and up allocation was all they wanted
because it completely satisfied their "technical" needs to suddenly become
Generals and Extras. I seem to remember reading how they could pass Element
1 if they wanted to but it would gain them nothing. I wonder if that's
changed?

--
73 de Bert
WA2SI

In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

Once the official FCC changes are made, by whatever method, I wonder
how long it will take the unlicensed to become licensed...Now that
there's NO excuse remaining?

Just wondering.

Steve:

What do you mean, "no excuse remaining?" There are plenty of excuses
remaining. As long as a written theory test (if you can call a multiple-
guess test a "written" test) is required, there will be people whining and
complaining about having to prepare for it and take it in order to obtain
a license in whatever's left of the ARS. So, we'll change the debate over
to whether or not the ARS is a "technical" service and whether the testing
should be changed into something more dumbed-down than it already is.
After that, the next bone of contention will be whether or not a prospective
ham should be required to know how to spell his name correctly on the
application!

73 de Larry, K3LT

From: ospam (Larry Roll K3LT)

So, we'll change the debate over
to whether or not the ARS is a "technical" service

The ARS will not be a "technical" service with the current Ham radio culture.
Most homebrewing is for show or to boost the image of the ARS. They are too
snobby to include someone that is interested in Homebrewing. Or its some EE
that usually doesn't attend meetings.

The clubs and Hamfests focus on antennas, contesting, and CW. With the
exception of antennas, ARS is primarily an appliance operator hobby. One
example is people coming from scanner or CB to ARS. Another example is the
comparison that "without CW, its just CB". Note that CW is an operator skill.

ARS is not a technical service because Hams have "voted" by their actions to
not do these things. Furthermore, they discourage other amateurs from doing
other than what they like to do. They also strongly encourage others to learn
CW. At several antenna setups, club meetings, ham gatherings, I have
participated in, often Hams try to persuade me to learn CW.

and whether the testing
should be changed into something more dumbed-down than it already is.

After that, the next bone of contention will be whether or not a prospective
ham should be required to know how to spell his name correctly on the
application!

To you, taking away one requirement (the CW test) is dumbing down because its
one less requirement. If more people focus on the written material, ARS could
be more than an operator's hobby and more of a technical hobby. That's not
dumbing down of the hobby.

It is only required 5 wpm CW speed, yet many Hams take pride in increasing
their code speed. The easy written test is not the problem. Its lack of
interest in the technical material, and achieving skills in these areas -
that's the problem.

"Vshah101" wrote in part ...

ARS is not a technical service because Hams have "voted" by their actions to
not do these things. Furthermore, they discourage other amateurs from doing
other than what they like to do. They also strongly encourage others to
learn CW. At several antenna setups, club meetings, ham gatherings, I have
participated in, often Hams try to persuade me to learn CW.
__________________________________________________ _______________________

And they SHOULD. I always strongly encourage Hams to learn CW. It's a
great skill to have. I didn't blink when someone encouraged me to learn
about SSB operation, Manual tuning, PSK, Antennas, and APRS. I found all of
them very interesting and it added more tools to my ARS toolbox. You make
it sound like CW is something that should be avoided at all costs. You
couldn't be more wrong. It is narrow attitudes like yours that hurt the
ARS.

Arnie -
KT4ST

"What Hath God Wrought?"

(Vshah101) wrote in message ...
From: ospam (Larry Roll K3LT)

So, we'll change the debate over
to whether or not the ARS is a "technical" service

The ARS will not be a "technical" service with the current Ham radio culture.
Most homebrewing is for show or to boost the image of the ARS. They are too
snobby to include someone that is interested in Homebrewing. Or its some EE
that usually doesn't attend meetings.

Ahhhhh geeze-oh whiz....With the same snotty kid rantings again.
Same silly, unfounded and baseless stuff.

The clubs and Hamfests focus on antennas, contesting, and CW. With the
exception of antennas, ARS is primarily an appliance operator hobby. One
example is people coming from scanner or CB to ARS. Another example is the
comparison that "without CW, its just CB". Note that CW is an operator skill.

Yes...One you do not have, and thankfully with current events are
not likely to have...So we can talk about you all day long and you
won't know it.

ARS is not a technical service because Hams have "voted" by their actions to
not do these things. Furthermore, they discourage other amateurs from doing
other than what they like to do. They also strongly encourage others to learn
CW. At several antenna setups, club meetings, ham gatherings, I have
participated in, often Hams try to persuade me to learn CW.

No one "discourages" any other Ham from doing any thing he or she
likes.

and whether the testing
should be changed into something more dumbed-down than it already is.

After that, the next bone of contention will be whether or not a prospective
ham should be required to know how to spell his name correctly on the
application!

To you, taking away one requirement (the CW test) is dumbing down because its
one less requirement. If more people focus on the written material, ARS could
be more than an operator's hobby and more of a technical hobby. That's not
dumbing down of the hobby.

And which "one less requirement" WILL be "dumbing down", Vippy?

We've castrated the written tests and now the last vestige of
operator competencey has taken it's final breaths.

It is only required 5 wpm CW speed, yet many Hams take pride in increasing
their code speed. The easy written test is not the problem.

The "ease" of written tests is subjective, Vippy. If the present
tests were sequestered, like they should be, the tests wouldn't be as
easy as they are now.

Steve, K4YZ

In article ,
(Vshah101) writes:

From: ospam (Larry Roll K3LT)

So, we'll change the debate over
to whether or not the ARS is a "technical" service

The ARS will not be a "technical" service with the current Ham radio culture.
Most homebrewing is for show or to boost the image of the ARS. They are too
snobby to include someone that is interested in Homebrewing. Or its some EE
that usually doesn't attend meetings.

Vipul:

I don't disagree.

The clubs and Hamfests focus on antennas, contesting, and CW. With the
exception of antennas, ARS is primarily an appliance operator hobby. One
example is people coming from scanner or CB to ARS. Another example is the
comparison that "without CW, its just CB". Note that CW is an operator skill.

Yup -- got it right that time. CW *is* an operator skill. Do you have
something
against operator skill -- or are you one of those New Age hams that think
yakking into a microphone is all the demonstration of operator skill that
should
ever be required of you?

ARS is not a technical service because Hams have "voted" by their actions to
not do these things. Furthermore, they discourage other amateurs from doing
other than what they like to do.

Funny -- nobody has ever been able to "discourage" me from doing anything
I wanted to do. I just went ahead and did it. I could care less what other
people think, do, or say as far as my personal participation in amateur
radio is concerned. Moreover, I don't waste valuable time whining about it --
as the no-coders apparently are inclined to do.

They also strongly encourage others to learn
CW. At several antenna setups, club meetings, ham gatherings, I have
participated in, often Hams try to persuade me to learn CW.

And this is a bad thing? How so? If you were around me at an antenna
party, I'd be nagging you to get involved in PSK-31 and other digital modes
in addition to the CW! It's all good!

and whether the testing
should be changed into something more dumbed-down than it already is.

After that, the next bone of contention will be whether or not a prospective
ham should be required to know how to spell his name correctly on the
application!

To you, taking away one requirement (the CW test) is dumbing down because its
one less requirement. If more people focus on the written material, ARS could
be more than an operator's hobby and more of a technical hobby. That's not
dumbing down of the hobby.

Well, you no-coders have always claimed that exact thing, but what has
happened is that ALL licensing requirements have been significantly
"dumbed-down." However, in spite of it now being easier than ever in the
history of the ARS to obtain a license with full privileges, our numbers are
not showing significant growth. What is wrong with this picture?

Oooooohhh. I guess it is the "attitudes" of all the CW-loving fossils
like me that is turning off the newcomers. Right. (There you go, Kim --
I saved you a few keystrokes!)

It is only required 5 wpm CW speed, yet many Hams take pride in increasing
their code speed.

Well, we can't have any of that now, can we?

The easy written test is not the problem. Its lack of
interest in the technical material, and achieving skills in these areas -
that's the problem.

Once again, I don't disagree. Soooo -- what are YOU going to do about it?

73 de Larry, K3LT

On 6 Jul 2003 22:27:00 -0700, (Steve Robeson, K4CAP)
wrote:

Once the official FCC changes are made, by whatever method, I wonder
how long it will take the unlicensed to become licensed...Now that
there's NO excuse remaining?

It has long been my opinion that the single biggest quality that
distinguishes most hams from most operators in the personal radio
services such as CB, MURS, Marine VHF, GMRS, and so forth is that we
hams are not only interested in our own enjoyment of radio, but we
also have a genuine interest in others enjoying their use of their
privileges as well. There are of course exceptions on both sides of
the dividing line that one might consider the licensing process to
represent, but in general, most hams really want "the other guy" to
have an enjoyable experience when he (or she) goes on the air. We care
not only about ourselves, but about others as well.

As for those that do not, well, we've all seen troll messages posted
in this and other NG by such persons many times in the past. If such
folks continue to shun the ARS in the future, this is probably a good
thing for all parties concerned. Pirates - whether they are on the
so-called "freeband" or are simply bootleggers on the ham frequencies
or elsewhere, have that status by their own choice. I seriously doubt
that we will see a major influx of new hams from the ranks of people
who feel they are above such conventions as getting a license,
operating according to a set of regulations, and conducting themselves
in accordance with good amateur practice and gentlemen's agreements
and so forth.

Nevertheless, there most definitely are many operators in the other
radio services who do in fact possess this quality, and it is my hope
that we'll see them streaming into the VE sessions en masse once the
changes take effect. In fact, I'll be working to convince them to do
just that, and to get them into the club meetings and to help them
learn what they'll need to learn to fully enjoy their new privileges,
and I'll be encouraging others to do the same. As with other
opportunities given to us by such simplifications of the regulations,
it's up to us to either make the most of it or let the chance to do
some good on behalf of the ARS just slide on by...and I do believe
that those who are not part of the solution are part of the problem.

73 DE John, KC2HMZ

In article , Radio Amateur KC2HMZ
writes:

is required, there will be people whining and
complaining about having to prepare for it and take it in order to obtain
a license in whatever's left of the ARS.

I feel compelled to point out that such negativity is not likely to
have a positive effect on "whatever's left of the ARS" and to remind
once again that anyone who is not a part of the solution is a part of
the problem.

John:

This is not "negativity," just a plainly truthful assessment of the present
situation regarding licensing standards in the ARS.

So, we'll change the debate over
to whether or not the ARS is a "technical" service and whether the testing
should be changed into something more dumbed-down than it already is.

Every time I hear someone lamenting the supposed dumbing down of the
ARS, I can't help but think of the number of longtime hams I've seen
over the past few years who brought a brand new 2m or dual-band mobile
or HT, or an Icom 706MKIIG or Yaesu FT-100 into a club meeting to seek
help in programming it.

I know what you're talking about -- and I'll concede up front that a lot of
these technically-inept OT's are 20 WPM Extras to boot! However, I have
always strove to keep up with the times as far as basic technical knowledge
is concerned -- and not just the bare minimum required to keep beeping
or yakking. I have always been involved in digital modes, for instance, and
now use them more than CW! I have been my club's "Digital Mode Captain"
for the past four Field Days, and will try to pass that job over to some
newcomer next year, if only I could find one willing to open some books and
turn some pages to learn everything I have -- instead of being "Elmered"
with "hands on" training which only gives them the basic operational
procedure and none of the background.

I'm not talking about relative newcomers
either, I'm talking about guys who were hams before I was even born.

Yup, I know. They're a real problem, all right. Usually the leaders of
the "Don't PL our repeater" pack of whiners.

Furthermore, sometimes it's a no-code Tech who picks up the
old-timer's HT and shows him how to program it.

Sometimes, but certainly not often enough. The No-Code Techs are at the
top of the list of the technically inept, in spite of their protests to the
contrary.

Never mind that the
HT's owner could have learned this for himself by reading the manual,
because many manufactuers' manuals leave a lot to be desired, and
we're talking about guys who once built microphones out of tuna fish
cans and can do 40WPM or better in their sleep.

Quite frankly, the tuna fish-can mics didn't sound that great, and the
40 WPM in their sleep would have sounded a lot better if they had used
25 WPM while wide awake.

How are we supposed to
be dumbed down if guys who have been extras since Moby Dick was a
minnow need help from another ham to get a new piece of equipment
operating? And how are we supposed to be dumbed down when it turns out
to be a guy with a license the ink isn't even dry on yet that is able
to provide that assistance, and is happy to do so? I'm not buying the
dumbed-down theory one bit.

This has always been the case, John -- I was one of the "technical
nerds" when I was a newcomer ham as well -- much to the dismay of
the OT's in my first club. And I don't claim to be a technical genius
or anything like it -- I have strictly "amateur" technical skills. I am,
however, technically self-sufficient as far as my own station set-up and
operation is concerned, and I have enough know-how to maintain our
club's repeaters, do all our computer logging for Field Day and other
contests, etc. etc.

I don't disagree with you whatsoever about the technical abilities of
hams past or present. However, I don't assign that technical inability
to knowledge of the Morse code, either. The two are not related, no
matter how hard the no-coders struggle to make that very same
connection in their arguments.

After that, the next bone of contention will be whether or not a prospective
ham should be required to know how to spell his name correctly on the
application!

If he can't, he gets a license that doesn't have his name on it and is
therefore invalid, doesn't he?

Dang it, John, you got it first time! You're a real fart smeller! Er, I mean,

smart feller!

BTW, Larry, you were supposed to look me up when you came up this way,
I still owe you a roast beef from a bet we made several years ago and
you haven't even bothered to collect your winnings.

My apologies. I don't even remember the bet. I guess my brain is too
full of Morse code knowledge to retain such things, eh? Please refresh
my memory!

73 de Larry, K3LT

On 09 Jul 2003 03:57:18 GMT, ospam (Larry Roll K3LT)
wrote:

This is not "negativity," just a plainly truthful assessment of the present
situation regarding licensing standards in the ARS.

My own feeling is that anyone who would whine about having to
"prepare" for the Element 2 written exam probably has never touched a
radio in his/her life other than maybe an AM/FM broadcast receiver.

With that said, and upon further consideration, I have to admit that
you're probably right, there probably will be some...and telling them
about how we used to have to hike barefooted 50 mile suphill both ways
to and from an FCC office to take the code test and the gawdawfullest
written exams anybody ever heard of isn't going to cut it with those
folks either. I myself might prefer to take a more positive
approach...yes, it's a pain in the neck to have to read that silly
book but look at the privileges you get once it's all over with, etc.

Every time I hear someone lamenting the supposed dumbing down of the
ARS, I can't help but think of the number of longtime hams I've seen
over the past few years who brought a brand new 2m or dual-band mobile
or HT, or an Icom 706MKIIG or Yaesu FT-100 into a club meeting to seek
help in programming it.

I know what you're talking about -- and I'll concede up front that a lot of
these technically-inept OT's are 20 WPM Extras to boot! However, I have

I dunno if I'd call them technically inept. These are guys who've
probably forgotten more about theory than I've ever learned. There are
other reasons for their difficulty with programming today's radios.

always strove to keep up with the times as far as basic technical knowledge
is concerned -- and not just the bare minimum required to keep beeping
or yakking. I have always been involved in digital modes, for instance, and
now use them more than CW! I have been my club's "Digital Mode Captain"
for the past four Field Days, and will try to pass that job over to some
newcomer next year, if only I could find one willing to open some books and
turn some pages to learn everything I have -- instead of being "Elmered"
with "hands on" training which only gives them the basic operational
procedure and none of the background.

The last two years at Field Day, the only guy attempting any digital
mode other than CW was a no-code Tech. He made a few SSTV contacts.

I'm not talking about relative newcomers
either, I'm talking about guys who were hams before I was even born.

Yup, I know. They're a real problem, all right. Usually the leaders of
the "Don't PL our repeater" pack of whiners.

We were forced to PL ours about a year ago when a temperature
inversion brought in signals on the input from users of four different
repeaters 50-75 miles or more away from ours. Our repeater's
transmitter was keyed down almost nonstop for about three hours one
day. That was the end...the technical committee decided it was easier
to beg forgiveness than obtain permission and enabled CTCSS on the
input (we'd been transmitting the tone on the output for years to
benefit those with radios with CTCSS decode). Funny thing was, nobody
really complained to the board or to the committee. There was one
group of four or five guys whose regular chitchat on every other
morning moved to another repeater because one of the guys has an older
radio that can't even transmit the tone let alone decode it on
receive, but they seemed to understand why we had to do it. They were
all older hams, but none of them has so far brought in a 2m rig to get
help programming it.

Furthermore, sometimes it's a no-code Tech who picks up the
old-timer's HT and shows him how to program it.

Sometimes, but certainly not often enough. The No-Code Techs are at the
top of the list of the technically inept, in spite of their protests to the
contrary.

In our club there are basically two guys they usually bring 'em to.
One is me (current General) and the other is a Technician. We've done
so many now that we generally just sit down and program the club
repeater into a memory (proper offset and tone of course) while they
stand there holding the manual and shaking their heads...but when we
first started we read a lot of manuals that were very obviously
written in Japanese and then translated into English and were very
little help even to us - and we've been programming programmable
radios almost since the first programmable scanners hit the market
(remember the old Bearcat 100?).

Never mind that the
HT's owner could have learned this for himself by reading the manual,
because many manufactuers' manuals leave a lot to be desired, and
we're talking about guys who once built microphones out of tuna fish
cans and can do 40WPM or better in their sleep.

Quite frankly, the tuna fish-can mics didn't sound that great, and the
40 WPM in their sleep would have sounded a lot better if they had used
25 WPM while wide awake.

Perhaps...but some of these guys are really amazing. We have at least
one guy in our club who can sit there and hold a conversation with
five other people, while across the room two guys are working a CW
contest, one operating and the other logging, and all of a sudden
he'll turn around and tell the ops, "Work that guy, we need him!"
Invariably when the call is punched into the dupe checker, we do in
fact need that contact for a multiplier, too.

This has always been the case, John -- I was one of the "technical
nerds" when I was a newcomer ham as well -- much to the dismay of
the OT's in my first club. And I don't claim to be a technical genius
or anything like it -- I have strictly "amateur" technical skills. I am,
however, technically self-sufficient as far as my own station set-up and
operation is concerned, and I have enough know-how to maintain our
club's repeaters, do all our computer logging for Field Day and other
contests, etc. etc.

I've always set up my own station equipment too. It hasn't fallen to
me to maintain a repeater yet. I understand the theory behind 'em but
haven't gained practical experience working on a repeater.

I don't disagree with you whatsoever about the technical abilities of
hams past or present. However, I don't assign that technical inability
to knowledge of the Morse code, either. The two are not related, no
matter how hard the no-coders struggle to make that very same
connection in their arguments.

Yet above you said (and I cut and paste here):

Sometimes, but certainly not often enough. The No-Code Techs are at the
top of the list of the technically inept, in spite of their protests to the
contrary.

Presumably, then, this means that the lack of technical proficiency is
not related to the lack of CW skills. Well...Technician is the
entry-level license. A Tech isn't expected to have attained the same
level of technical proficiency as an Extra or a General. When they do,
they take another test (or currently, two tests) and upgrade.

BTW, Larry, you were supposed to look me up when you came up this way,
I still owe you a roast beef from a bet we made several years ago and
you haven't even bothered to collect your winnings.

My apologies. I don't even remember the bet. I guess my brain is too
full of Morse code knowledge to retain such things, eh? Please refresh
my memory!

This happened during the weeks just prior to restructuring. There was
a discussion of how many license classes we were going to end up with.
Your prediction of three classes turned out to be correct. I'd
predicted two, and so still owe you a roast beef sandwich at Swiston's
in Tonawanda...when you get up to the Northtowns on one of your
occasional trips back to western NY.

73 DE John, KC2HMZ