I still maintain it is all a matter of achieve or cop out. Make excuses or
meet a challenge.
And you are correct "Code aptitude and IQ are completely unrelated" So much
for the "Engineer copout"

It has nothing to do whether you or I like or dislike the code.
It has nothing to do with "Antiquated technology"
It has nothing to do with "I'll never use code"
It has everything to do with "Want HF Ham Ticket -- Pass the Test "(at the
moment) If dropped is all OK with me. Times and requirements change as they
should.

Black and white -- yep sure is -- society, government, et al make it that
way. Don't Drink and Drive, 3 strikes you are outta here -- Pass the Test --
pretty black and white to me.

As for Anyone who used the code as an excuse for not becoming a ham,
just
wasn't serious about it.

An unsupported assertion, and untrue

I have talked with hundreds and I mean hundreds of folks and VE's over the
years and here are the copouts.

I don't have time. The most common one. VE's here have found that 15 min a
day EVERY day practice and in a month --90%+ pass the code test BUT the
other 10% spend all night on the boob tube.

I'll never use code. (You may never have to parallel park either) (if they
still require that)

I can't take tests (Has Drivers License and a BSEE)

Its a lot easier to get on CB

Its too expensive (has $1000 computer, can't afford a Swan 350 at $250)

Its so illogical (so is a job interview at times)

Notice I didn't even mention whether I am a Ham or not -- Tech no-code or
Extra ---pro or anti-code -- cause that ain't got nothing to do with --
PASS THE TEST


"Alun Palmer" wrote in message
...
"Guessing" wrote in
news:QWCPa.913$Bd5.644@fed1read01:


Someone squawked
As an engineer myself, I can verfiy that lots of engineers have told
me exactly that. Whether they would get a licence once code testing is
abolished might be another matter.

Nonsense and a big copout

It happens to be the truth, whether you like it or not


If you want a BS/MS/PHD Degree -- pass the tests
Want a driver license -- take a test
Want a job - take a drug test and physical exam and perhaps a
professional test
Want insurance -- take a physical exam
Want to be an apprentice (JourneyPerson) -- take the test
Want to advance in the Military -- take the test
Pass the Bar (Legal that is) Pass Da Test
Nurses CPR for sure and maybe ACLS Tests
Sobriety Test -- Try to dodge this one
et al tests
Want an HF Ham license -- take the code and Technical/Rules et al test

Code won't be included in that for much longer. I assume that since you
just say 'take the test' about everything, that you must have no problem
with that. I certainly don't!

Otherwise we have CB and FRS. And one who listens on these bands ought
to be totally inspired to get a Ham Ticket !!!

Simple as that.


You live in a 'black and white' world, don't you?

Anyone who used the code as an excuse for not becoming a ham, just
wasn't serious about it.


An unsupported assertion, and untrue

If 10 to 17 year olds can do it, why can't an engineer or any other
college grad ???


Code aptitude and IQ are completely unrelated

Did any of those "Engineers" get a No-Code Tech license ??

Yes, I did (although I did code eventually)

Didn't think so !!

"Dick Carroll" wrote in message
...

Dwight Stewart wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote:

Dwight Stewart wrote:

Isn't Code more of a skill than a knowledge? Any
person can look at a piece of paper with a code
chart on it and translate code, but that doesn't
mean they have the skill to send or receive code
over a radio. Wasn't the latter the ultimate
purpose of the code test?

One must know the Morse code to send and recieve it.

You're right. Perhaps memorizing the individual sequence of sounds
associated with a letter of the alphabet is knowledge on some very basic
level, similar to a young child memorizing the sounds associated with
the
letters of the alphabet. Amazing that this would become a key focus of
testing in ham radio for so many years.

\


Mygawd, Dwight, are you really licensed as a ham? And *that's* all you
know of
radiotelegraphy?
You been hiding out in the wilderness somewhere, in a cave? What do you
think
it was that started
radio in the first place, semaphores?


No doubt what started ham radio was an experiment using the best of what was
around then. Perhaps you'd like to move into the most recent century, Dick.
If ham radio were "invented" today, it would never even get near CW.

Kim W5TIT


---
Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net
Complaints to

"Guessing" wrote in
news:bXVPa.1425$Bd5.445@fed1read01:

I still maintain it is all a matter of achieve or cop out. Make
excuses or meet a challenge.
And you are correct "Code aptitude and IQ are completely unrelated" So
much for the "Engineer copout"

It has nothing to do whether you or I like or dislike the code.

I disagree. If someone doesn't like CW, why on earth should they be forced
to train as a CW operator to get accesss to phone frequencies? This is a
hobby.

It has nothing to do with "Antiquated technology"

I don't think CW can match PSK or TOR, so it is somewhat antiquated, IMHO

It has nothing to do with "I'll never use code"

On the contrary. I don't use code, so why did I have to learn to use it?

It has everything to do with "Want HF Ham Ticket -- Pass the Test "(at
the moment) If dropped is all OK with me. Times and requirements change
as they should.


So you have no trouble with the oncoming changes, then?

Black and white -- yep sure is -- society, government, et al make it
that way. Don't Drink and Drive, 3 strikes you are outta here -- Pass
the Test -- pretty black and white to me.


So you don't beleive anyone should try to change any of the rules?

As for Anyone who used the code as an excuse for not becoming a
ham, just
wasn't serious about it.

An unsupported assertion, and untrue

I have talked with hundreds and I mean hundreds of folks and VE's over
the years and here are the copouts.

I don't have time. The most common one. VE's here have found that 15
min a day EVERY day practice and in a month --90%+ pass the code test
BUT the other 10% spend all night on the boob tube.


Usually that is just an excuse, I agree. My XYL uses it all the time!

I'll never use code. (You may never have to parallel park either) (if
they still require that)


No, that one is valid.

I can't take tests (Has Drivers License and a BSEE)

Its a lot easier to get on CB

Its too expensive (has $1000 computer, can't afford a Swan 350 at $250)


That one makes me smile too

Its so illogical (so is a job interview at times)

Notice I didn't even mention whether I am a Ham or not -- Tech no-code
or Extra ---pro or anti-code -- cause that ain't got nothing to do
with -- PASS THE TEST


"Alun Palmer" wrote in message
...
"Guessing" wrote in
news:QWCPa.913$Bd5.644@fed1read01:


Someone squawked
As an engineer myself, I can verfiy that lots of engineers have
told me exactly that. Whether they would get a licence once code
testing is abolished might be another matter.

Nonsense and a big copout

It happens to be the truth, whether you like it or not


If you want a BS/MS/PHD Degree -- pass the tests
Want a driver license -- take a test
Want a job - take a drug test and physical exam and perhaps a
professional test
Want insurance -- take a physical exam
Want to be an apprentice (JourneyPerson) -- take the test
Want to advance in the Military -- take the test
Pass the Bar (Legal that is) Pass Da Test
Nurses CPR for sure and maybe ACLS Tests
Sobriety Test -- Try to dodge this one
et al tests
Want an HF Ham license -- take the code and Technical/Rules et al
test

Code won't be included in that for much longer. I assume that since
you just say 'take the test' about everything, that you must have no
problem with that. I certainly don't!

Otherwise we have CB and FRS. And one who listens on these bands
ought to be totally inspired to get a Ham Ticket !!!

Simple as that.


You live in a 'black and white' world, don't you?

Anyone who used the code as an excuse for not becoming a ham, just
wasn't serious about it.


An unsupported assertion, and untrue

If 10 to 17 year olds can do it, why can't an engineer or any other
college grad ???


Code aptitude and IQ are completely unrelated

Did any of those "Engineers" get a No-Code Tech license ??

Yes, I did (although I did code eventually)

Didn't think so !!

"Kim W5TIT" wrote in
:

"Dick Carroll" wrote in message
...

Dwight Stewart wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote:

Dwight Stewart wrote:

Isn't Code more of a skill than a knowledge? Any
person can look at a piece of paper with a code
chart on it and translate code, but that doesn't
mean they have the skill to send or receive code
over a radio. Wasn't the latter the ultimate purpose of the code
test?

One must know the Morse code to send and recieve it.

You're right. Perhaps memorizing the individual sequence of sounds
associated with a letter of the alphabet is knowledge on some very
basic level, similar to a young child memorizing the sounds
associated with the letters of the alphabet. Amazing that this would
become a key focus of testing in ham radio for so many years.

\


Mygawd, Dwight, are you really licensed as a ham? And *that's* all you
know of radiotelegraphy? You been hiding out in the wilderness
somewhere, in a cave? What do you think it was that started
radio in the first place, semaphores?


No doubt what started ham radio was an experiment using the best of
what was around then. Perhaps you'd like to move into the most recent
century, Dick. If ham radio were "invented" today, it would never even
get near CW.

Kim W5TIT


---
Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net
Complaints to


Do you know why, though Kim. Morse intended his system to be 100%
automated. Sending by hand and receiving by ear only came about because
the electro-mechanical systems of the day were unreliable. This happened
even before radio was invented. So you're right, now we use computers for
data modes a chain of events like that would be impossible.

"Alun Palmer" wrote in message
...
"Guessing" wrote in
news:bXVPa.1425$Bd5.445@fed1read01:

Alun I respect you opinions. Just like I don't like some laws (blue or
otherwise) and CC&R's in the HOA in which I live -- I can express a personal
emotion or opinion as you have. But my point is that thousands who hate the
code have passed the code test because they had to in order to achieve their
goals. If one's desire to get on HF is high enough, the code should not be a
deterrent as many have proved. And they didn't like proving it.

I still maintain it is all a matter of achieve or cop out. Make
excuses or meet a challenge.
And you are correct "Code aptitude and IQ are completely unrelated" So
much for the "Engineer copout"

It has nothing to do whether you or I like or dislike the code.

I disagree. If someone doesn't like CW, why on earth should they be forced
to train as a CW operator to get accesss to phone frequencies? This is a
hobby.

Because the FCC sez so -- don't mix emotions with the law.
It is not a hobby -- FCC Part 97 sez it is a Service. (That ought to stir up
a hornets nest!!)

It has nothing to do with "Antiquated technology"

I don't think CW can match PSK or TOR, so it is somewhat antiquated, IMHO

Besides the point

It has nothing to do with "I'll never use code"

On the contrary. I don't use code, so why did I have to learn to use it?

FCC sez so -- you are making an excuse to avoid the requirement. Logic has
nothing to do with it -- its the law. Ask a lawyer about that one. Hey I
want to be a BSEE, why do I have to take History classes ????

It has everything to do with "Want HF Ham Ticket -- Pass the Test "(at
the moment) If dropped is all OK with me. Times and requirements change
as they should.


So you have no trouble with the oncoming changes, then?

None at all.

Black and white -- yep sure is -- society, government, et al make it
that way. Don't Drink and Drive, 3 strikes you are outta here -- Pass
the Test -- pretty black and white to me.


So you don't beleive anyone should try to change any of the rules?

Of course change is inevitable. But for now -- buckle up

As for Anyone who used the code as an excuse for not becoming a
ham, just
wasn't serious about it.

An unsupported assertion, and untrue

I have talked with hundreds and I mean hundreds of folks and VE's over
the years and here are the copouts.

I don't have time. The most common one. VE's here have found that 15
min a day EVERY day practice and in a month --90%+ pass the code test
BUT the other 10% spend all night on the boob tube.


Usually that is just an excuse, I agree. My XYL uses it all the time!
Mine Too !!

I'll never use code. (You may never have to parallel park either) (if
they still require that)

No, that one is valid.

Try telling that to the FCC -- meantime Pass The Test

I can't take tests (Has Drivers License and a BSEE)

Its a lot easier to get on CB

Its too expensive (has $1000 computer, can't afford a Swan 350 at $250)


That one makes me smile too

Its so illogical (so is a job interview at times)

Notice I didn't even mention whether I am a Ham or not -- Tech no-code
or Extra ---pro or anti-code -- cause that ain't got nothing to do
with -- PASS THE TEST


"Alun Palmer" wrote in message
...
"Guessing" wrote in
news:QWCPa.913$Bd5.644@fed1read01:


Someone squawked
As an engineer myself, I can verfiy that lots of engineers have
told me exactly that. Whether they would get a licence once code
testing is abolished might be another matter.

Nonsense and a big copout

It happens to be the truth, whether you like it or not


If you want a BS/MS/PHD Degree -- pass the tests
Want a driver license -- take a test
Want a job - take a drug test and physical exam and perhaps a
professional test
Want insurance -- take a physical exam
Want to be an apprentice (JourneyPerson) -- take the test
Want to advance in the Military -- take the test
Pass the Bar (Legal that is) Pass Da Test
Nurses CPR for sure and maybe ACLS Tests
Sobriety Test -- Try to dodge this one
et al tests
Want an HF Ham license -- take the code and Technical/Rules et al
test

Code won't be included in that for much longer. I assume that since
you just say 'take the test' about everything, that you must have no
problem with that. I certainly don't!

Otherwise we have CB and FRS. And one who listens on these bands
ought to be totally inspired to get a Ham Ticket !!!

Simple as that.


You live in a 'black and white' world, don't you?

Anyone who used the code as an excuse for not becoming a ham, just
wasn't serious about it.


An unsupported assertion, and untrue

If 10 to 17 year olds can do it, why can't an engineer or any other
college grad ???


Code aptitude and IQ are completely unrelated

Did any of those "Engineers" get a No-Code Tech license ??

Yes, I did (although I did code eventually)

Didn't think so !!

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 00:19:01 -0400, "Bill Sohl"
wrote:

Ask a lawyer about that one. Hey I
want to be a BSEE, why do I have to take History classes ????

You don't have to take history classes in some schools
to get a BSEE.

Correct...but, in my opinion, still misses one major point, namely
that an amateur radio license and a BSEE are entirely different.

A BSEE is a degree awarded at the *end* of an academic pursuit for the
purpose of recognizing successful completion thereof and to certify
that the recipient has acquired significant knowledge in the field. By
the time you get a BSEE, you're supposed to have forgotten more about
electrical engineering than most people have ever learned. It'll get
you a decent job even if you bluffed your way through and really don't
know shinola. It's supposedly proof of an accomplishment, that being a
well-rounded education, with particular emphasis in a specialized
field. That's why most (not all) institutes of higher learning require
classes in things like history, literature, and other stuff that would
seem unrelated.

If I were Larry Roll, I'd lament that I've seen so many people with
college degrees that still couldn't fill out a job application
properly, that the requirements for a college degree must have been
seriously dumbed down over the past thirty years, but I'm not, so I
won't. Nevertheless, I have worked with people who held engineering
degrees yet could not compose a coherent memo for circulation in their
own department.

An amateur radio license is a document awarded at the *beginning* of
one's participation in the hobby for the purpose of granting operating
privileges and to certify that the recipient has demonstrated entry
level knowledge at the class of license thus received. It won't get
you a job bagging groceries. As for the accomplishments, those come
afterward when you actually start to make use of the privileges the
license conveys by putting Qs in your logbook. It is not, and is not
intended to be, comparable to a college degree...no matter how much
some people would like it to be so.

73 DE John, KC2HMZ

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 00:19:01 -0400, "Bill Sohl"
wrote:

Ask a lawyer about that one. Hey I
want to be a BSEE, why do I have to take History classes ????

You don't have to take history classes in some schools
to get a BSEE.

Correct...but, in my opinion, still misses one major point, namely
that an amateur radio license and a BSEE are entirely different.

A BSEE is a degree awarded at the *end* of an academic pursuit for the
purpose of recognizing successful completion thereof and to certify
that the recipient has acquired significant knowledge in the field. By
the time you get a BSEE, you're supposed to have forgotten more about
electrical engineering than most people have ever learned. It'll get
you a decent job even if you bluffed your way through and really don't
know shinola. It's supposedly proof of an accomplishment, that being a
well-rounded education, with particular emphasis in a specialized
field. That's why most (not all) institutes of higher learning require
classes in things like history, literature, and other stuff that would
seem unrelated.

If I were Larry Roll, I'd lament that I've seen so many people with
college degrees that still couldn't fill out a job application
properly, that the requirements for a college degree must have been
seriously dumbed down over the past thirty years, but I'm not, so I
won't. Nevertheless, I have worked with people who held engineering
degrees yet could not compose a coherent memo for circulation in their
own department.

An amateur radio license is a document awarded at the *beginning* of
one's participation in the hobby for the purpose of granting operating
privileges and to certify that the recipient has demonstrated entry
level knowledge at the class of license thus received. It won't get
you a job bagging groceries. As for the accomplishments, those come
afterward when you actually start to make use of the privileges the
license conveys by putting Qs in your logbook. It is not, and is not
intended to be, comparable to a college degree...no matter how much
some people would like it to be so.

73 DE John, KC2HMZ

Arnie Macy wrote:
"JJ" wrote ...

You mean you and Larry boy don't know semaphore Dick? Why that is just
plain LAZINESS. You know, when conditions are so bad that you and Larry have
to rely on CW and your faithful CW rigs gives up the ghost or conditions get
SO bad that CW can't even get through you and Larry could save the world by
using semaphore, if you had that skill, that is.
__________________________________________________ _____________________

I have to presume by your comment, JJ that you indeed know semaphore.
Otherwise, you look stupid when you chastise them for a skill you don't
possess. And, of course -- I'm sure it's just plain LAZINESS on your part.
What else could it be?


And yaknow what? If knowing semaphore was a requirement for a Ham
ticket, I'd learn it.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Dwight Stewart
writes:

Isn't Code more of a skill than a knowledge?

Dwight,

You may find the following definitions useful, I do, anyhow.

"Knowledge" in this context really means anything that can be learned and known
consciously by a person.

There are at least three different kinds of knowledge - facts, concepts and
skills.

Facts are concrete pieces of information, and are learned by pure memorization.
"1 plus 1 equals 2 in base 10" is an arithmetic fact. A person can know all
sorts of facts with no understanding of what they mean.

Concepts are understandings of how things work and what they mean. Such as the
concept of addition, which requires understanding. Of course without facts,
very little can be done with pure concepts.

Skills are the abilities to actually do useful things. Such as being able to
add numbers and get the right answer. Usually, but not always, skills require
facts and concepts. Skills are only learned through practice. You can know all
the facts about bicycles, and thoroughly understand the concepts behind bicycle
design, but you won't be able to ride one until you practice.

Most of what is on the written test is facts. The Morse test is almost pure
skill. Concepts get the short end.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Any person can look at a
piece of paper with a code chart on it and translate code, but that doesn't
mean they have the skill to send or receive code over a radio. Wasn't the
latter the ultimate purpose of the code test?

In article , Alun Palmer
writes:

No true, what if the sound fails on your ATV setup and you are aboard a
sinking vessel?

Use ASL (American Sign Language)

73 de Jim, N2EY