In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
While the intent may be good, this is a REALLY BAD idea ...

Flooding the FCC Commissioner's e-mail inboxes with such
letters will only **** them off ... at ALL of ham radio, not
just pro-code-test or no-code test factions.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do this ... and this
is DEFINITELY the WRONG way.

Those who support the elimination of the Morse test from US
FCC rules would be well-advised to join NCI
http://www.nocode.org
and follow the news.

NCI's Board of Directors is working the strategy for how to
best approach the FCC on this matter and we will keep the
membership informed when we have finalized those discussions.

Ya gotta get your people under control, Carl! 8^)

Why is that?

By all the public evidence in here the pro-coders have NOT BEEN IN
CONTROL OF THEMSELVES for years. Not even close.

Someone should exercise self-control these days and only the
no code test advocates seem the most on-track.

Five days in the penalty box for you...for sticking. :-)

LHA

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes:
some snippage

And of course there is the big question of.....WHY!


Because the organization exists for the sole stated purpose of ending all code
testing for any class of license. It costs nothing but a few mouse clicks to
join, but as far as anyone outside the organization knows there are less than
4000 members worldwide (look at the highest member number you see and subtract
1000). That's how many have ever been members, not how many are currently
active. A few members resigned after the 2000 restructuring because they
decided that 5 wpm was enough, and did not want to see total code test
elimination.

I understand all that, but it seems a little strange to join a group
that is facing extinction soon.


All these people
yakking here are US citizens with (I think) one exception. What is the
purpose of joining an organization that has accomplished it's apparent
sole purpose in this country?


That goal has not yet been accomplished! Element 1 or equivalent credit is
still required for all classes of US ham license with HF privileges. FCC hasn't
changed those rules yet. Heck, FCC hasn't even gotten a proposal to do so yet.

TRue, but even if it takes that two years I speak of, it doesn't seem
worth joining. Plus it seems their only goal is to eliminnate the code
test, not the transition from one state to the other.



I mean how many people really care if they
have the Morse code test in Lower Sloshingbottom?


See above.


NCI's Board of Directors is working the strategy for how to
best approach the FCC on this matter and we will keep the
membership informed when we have finalized those discussions.



In other words, "join our organization and trust us to do what's best,
don't go running off half-cocked and make all of us look bad". That's
what the ARRL has been saying for decades...


NCI knows better than the rest of us.


While I don't agree with that, their BoD certainly knows more about dealing
with the FCC than those who advocate breaking the rules.


Heheh, that's true

Is there an argument that can convince a PCTA to join NCI?


That's not the problem - there doesn't seem to be one that can convince some
vociferous NCTAs to join! Or even to see that their actions damage the very
cause they claim to champion.


Join No Code International! Hams for the 21st Century.



Will these "hams for the 21st Century" listen to you and toe the party
line?


They don't seem to be so far do they?


We're only talking about a vociferous few, Mike. So far. It will be interesting
to see what happens on Aug 1.


Help assure the survival and prosperity of ham radio.



I think we can agree that annoying the Commissioners, breaking the
rules, and acting like we don't know how the system works isn't going
to help the survival and prosperity of ham radio.


But that doesn't mean it isn't going to happen.


Hopefully saner heads will prevail.


There's one thing about all this that puzzles me, though. The FCC made
their opinions clear back in 1999 and again in 2000. The agenda for
WRC 2003 was known more than a year in advance and the outcome for
S25.5 correctly predicted by you (Carl) as a "slam dunk". Yet your
organization is still figuring out what to do next wrt FCC?


I myself have no idea why there isn't a whole sequence of events
marked out for an orderly transition.


You mean by FCC? They don't work that way. Look how long the last restructuring
took.

Nope, I mean the NCI. Why they don't have things mapped out and know
exactly the steps that must be taken to achieve their stated purpose on
this earth. Surely THEY knew that it takes more than just changing the
treaty?


Like who becomes what in the hierarchy of licenses.

Do Novices lose their licenses? Aside from CW, their test is so
rudimentary?

Tech pluses?

Lots of stuff that will become apparent as time goes on.


Nobody should lose their license. Nobody should lose operating privileges
UNLESS they are compensated for by new privileges.

Right. But I think there should be some sort of remedial program for the
novices. After all, I would expect their final priveliges to be
equivalent to a tech plus, which of course doesn't exist anymore, at
least for testing.


Consider this: There's a whole bunch of stuff that my 1967-70 era tests didn't
cover (like PSK-31). But FCC trusts that since I have a clean record I have
kept up with the rules and regs. So why should a Novice or Tech be any
different?


How long will it take to decide, and will "your people" listen to you?
They don't have much to lose, and they don;t even think they will get
caught. Many don't understand how the system works, but think they do
and don't care about long-term effects or the image of the ARS as a
whole.


Newsgroup postings are bad enough, but some are advocating massive
spamming and rulebreaking. Is that to be the way of "hams for the 21st
century"?


Like it or not, the removal of the Morse test has removed one element of
knowledge from the licensing process. Argue with me if about the
definition of knowledge, but it is the removal of just that. Knowledge.


Skills are a form of knowledge, so there's no argument.


Sure sounds like entropy in action to me.


Exactly. Were the writtens beefed up when the code was lowered? No, just the
opposite, although folks will argue that point too.


A whole lot of people find that removal of knowledge a positive thing
for them. This includes that mythical engineer who is so busy he or she
cannot take the time to learn Morse or is so fearful of leaning
something that they may not use. Unfortunately, it also includes some
people who find that rules are for other people.


What I find most ironic is that if the proposed rule-breaking actions are
carried out, it may damage the nocodetest cause and prove what some procodetest
people have said for years.

Yup


And yes, I worry about those people. I have great concern for the
people who think that a Technician can now pick and choose where to
transmit, who think that all ya gotta do to change the rules is have
everyone email the head people at the FCC, and whatever these good folk
dream up next.


The oddest thing is that even when someone as knowledgeable as Carl, Bill or
Phil, who are "on their side" tells them they're wrong, they argue.

Right. I could be of help, but when I point out to them what to me is
obvious, and turning out to be true, I get that. And it isn't even a
personal condemnation.


N0BK would call it surreal. He's gone, so I'll have to do the honors.

It's surreal......

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , "Dan/W4NTI"
writes:

Let me just add this Carl of NCI. If you DONT get your mob of ignorant
cbers in line then the real hams will start their own little group.

So, it IS true...the Kode Klutz Klan is forming!

All along I thought it was just a funny saying...

If you
think we are going to sit by and watch ham radio be turned into a cess pool
like 11m, you are badly mistaken. Expect FCC action. Expect on the air
wars.

Expect Steamy with his PARAMILITARY ham radio?!?


Did you enjoy your part in destroying ham radio?

You certainly did...

LHA












"Ready on the left? Ready on the right? Ready on the firing line?
The flag is up, the flag is waving...you have 20 seconds..."

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes:
some snippage

And of course there is the big question of.....WHY!

(snip)

I understand all that, but it seems a little strange to join a group
that is facing extinction soon.

Not if you want to help that cause along.

All these people
yakking here are US citizens with (I think) one exception. What is the
purpose of joining an organization that has accomplished it's apparent
sole purpose in this country?

That goal has not yet been accomplished! Element 1 or equivalent credit is
still required for all classes of US ham license with HF privileges. FCC
hasn't
changed those rules yet. Heck, FCC hasn't even gotten a proposal to do so
yet.

TRue, but even if it takes that two years I speak of, it doesn't seem
worth joining. Plus it seems their only goal is to eliminnate the code
test, not the transition from one state to the other.

All in the mind of the joiner, doncha think? For some, two years is
not a long time, for others it's a very long time.

NCI's Board of Directors is working the strategy for how to
best approach the FCC on this matter and we will keep the
membership informed when we have finalized those discussions.

In other words, "join our organization and trust us to do what's best,
don't go running off half-cocked and make all of us look bad". That's
what the ARRL has been saying for decades...

NCI knows better than the rest of us.

While I don't agree with that, their BoD certainly knows more about dealing
with the FCC than those who advocate breaking the rules.

Heheh, that's true

Would that some folks would at least listen to reason on what the
rules actually mean.....

Join No Code International! Hams for the 21st Century.

Will these "hams for the 21st Century" listen to you and toe the party
line?

They don't seem to be so far do they?

We're only talking about a vociferous few, Mike. So far. It will be
interesting to see what happens on Aug 1.

Help assure the survival and prosperity of ham radio.

I think we can agree that annoying the Commissioners, breaking the
rules, and acting like we don't know how the system works isn't going
to help the survival and prosperity of ham radio.

But that doesn't mean it isn't going to happen.

Hopefully saner heads will prevail.

There's one thing about all this that puzzles me, though. The FCC made
their opinions clear back in 1999 and again in 2000. The agenda for
WRC 2003 was known more than a year in advance and the outcome for
S25.5 correctly predicted by you (Carl) as a "slam dunk". Yet your
organization is still figuring out what to do next wrt FCC?

I myself have no idea why there isn't a whole sequence of events
marked out for an orderly transition.

You mean by FCC? They don't work that way. Look how long the last
restructuring took.

Nope, I mean the NCI. Why they don't have things mapped out and know
exactly the steps that must be taken to achieve their stated purpose on
this earth. Surely THEY knew that it takes more than just changing the
treaty?

Of course they do. But there's a number of issues. For example:

Does FCC need to wait until the treaty is ratified or not?

Might FCC just dump Element 1 by MO&O, or is a complete NOI/NPRM cycle
needed?

Will submitting a proposal now cause FCC to act faster or slower? (If
FCC thinks they need to wait till ratification, and they plan to just
dump Element 1 by MO&O, submitting a proposal could upset the apple
cart and cause an NPRM cycle that delays things years!)

What about proposals that are already on the docket?

Might FCC tack code test elimination onto an existing proposal such as
the one "refarming the Novice bands"?

Should the anticodetest folks go for a single issue (dump Element 1)
or something more comprehensive?

Of course all of this may already have been worked out. Or maybe not.

Like who becomes what in the hierarchy of licenses.

Do Novices lose their licenses? Aside from CW, their test is so
rudimentary?

Tech pluses?

Lots of stuff that will become apparent as time goes on.

Nobody should lose their license. Nobody should lose operating privileges
UNLESS they are compensated for by new privileges.

Right. But I think there should be some sort of remedial program for the
novices.

Why?

After all, I would expect their final priveliges to be
equivalent to a tech plus, which of course doesn't exist anymore, at
least for testing.

That was suggested back in '98 and shot down by FCC. (ARRL wanted
instant grandfathering of Novices and Tech Pluses to General).

Consider this: There's a whole bunch of stuff that my 1967-70 era tests didn't
cover (like PSK-31). But FCC trusts that since I have a clean record I have
kept up with the rules and regs. So why should a Novice or Tech be any
different?

Well?

And yes, I worry about those people. I have great concern for the
people who think that a Technician can now pick and choose where to
transmit, who think that all ya gotta do to change the rules is have
everyone email the head people at the FCC, and whatever these good folk
dream up next.


The oddest thing is that even when someone as knowledgeable as Carl, Bill or
Phil, who are "on their side" tells them they're wrong, they argue.

Right. I could be of help, but when I point out to them what to me is
obvious, and turning out to be true, I get that. And it isn't even a
personal condemnation.

"Brave new world, that has such people in it"

N0BK would call it surreal. He's gone, so I'll have to do the honors.

It's surreal......

"If it happens, it must be possible".

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

snippage


TRue, but even if it takes that two years I speak of, it doesn't seem
worth joining. Plus it seems their only goal is to eliminnate the code
test, not the transition from one state to the other.


All in the mind of the joiner, doncha think? For some, two years is
not a long time, for others it's a very long time.

Well, if they want to, I guess Maybe Carl or Bill can give us some
numbers of joinees since the beginning of July. Seems wierd to me, but
then again so much does.


NCI's Board of Directors is working the strategy for how to
best approach the FCC on this matter and we will keep the
membership informed when we have finalized those discussions.



In other words, "join our organization and trust us to do what's best,
don't go running off half-cocked and make all of us look bad". That's
what the ARRL has been saying for decades...



NCI knows better than the rest of us.



While I don't agree with that, their BoD certainly knows more about dealing
with the FCC than those who advocate breaking the rules.



Heheh, that's true


Would that some folks would at least listen to reason on what the
rules actually mean.....

The preponderence of evidence would suggest otherwise for some.


more snippage


I myself have no idea why there isn't a whole sequence of events
marked out for an orderly transition.



You mean by FCC? They don't work that way. Look how long the last
restructuring took.

Nope, I mean the NCI. Why they don't have things mapped out and know
exactly the steps that must be taken to achieve their stated purpose on
this earth. Surely THEY knew that it takes more than just changing the
treaty?


Of course they do. But there's a number of issues. For example:

Does FCC need to wait until the treaty is ratified or not?

Might FCC just dump Element 1 by MO&O, or is a complete NOI/NPRM cycle
needed?

Will submitting a proposal now cause FCC to act faster or slower? (If
FCC thinks they need to wait till ratification, and they plan to just
dump Element 1 by MO&O, submitting a proposal could upset the apple
cart and cause an NPRM cycle that delays things years!)

What about proposals that are already on the docket?

Might FCC tack code test elimination onto an existing proposal such as
the one "refarming the Novice bands"?

Should the anticodetest folks go for a single issue (dump Element 1)
or something more comprehensive?

Of course all of this may already have been worked out. Or maybe not.

What *looks* like happened, IMO, is that there really wasn't much
planning for a transition after the fall. I could be wrong, but the
leaders seemed rather surprised by the "looting behavior" of some
people. Any time that a vacuum is created, *something* will fill it.


Like who becomes what in the hierarchy of licenses.

Do Novices lose their licenses? Aside from CW, their test is so
rudimentary?

Tech pluses?

Lots of stuff that will become apparent as time goes on.



Nobody should lose their license. Nobody should lose operating privileges
UNLESS they are compensated for by new privileges.

Right. But I think there should be some sort of remedial program for the
novices.


Why?

Many people are annoyed at the likes of myself and other "Extra Lites".
I can only imagine that novices, who have taken an extremely rudimentary
test, will likewise be thought of as not worthy of the privelige.



After all, I would expect their final priveliges to be
equivalent to a tech plus, which of course doesn't exist anymore, at
least for testing.


That was suggested back in '98 and shot down by FCC. (ARRL wanted
instant grandfathering of Novices and Tech Pluses to General).

But now imagine that. That would be tantamount to saying that "The
Morse Code makes the Ham". A tech plus is not that far from a General,
but certainly in a world that requires no code test, the Novice is
further away from a General than a Technician is. Awkward paragraph, I know.

Consider this: There's a whole bunch of stuff that my 1967-70 era
tests didn't
cover (like PSK-31). But FCC trusts that since I have a clean record I have
kept up with the rules and regs. So why should a Novice or Tech be any
different?


Well?

See above.


And yes, I worry about those people. I have great concern for the
people who think that a Technician can now pick and choose where to
transmit, who think that all ya gotta do to change the rules is have
everyone email the head people at the FCC, and whatever these good folk
dream up next.


The oddest thing is that even when someone as knowledgeable as Carl, Bill or
Phil, who are "on their side" tells them they're wrong, they argue.

Right. I could be of help, but when I point out to them what to me is
obvious, and turning out to be true, I get that. And it isn't even a
personal condemnation.


"Brave new world, that has such people in it"

Such people indeed!


- Mike KB3EIA -

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , "Dan/W4NTI"
writes:

Let me just add this Carl of NCI. If you DONT get your mob of ignorant
cbers in line then the real hams will start their own little group.

So, it IS true...the Kode Klutz Klan is forming!

All along I thought it was just a funny saying...

If you
think we are going to sit by and watch ham radio be turned into a cess pool
like 11m, you are badly mistaken. Expect FCC action. Expect on the air
wars.

Expect Steamy with his PARAMILITARY ham radio?!?

Did you enjoy your part in destroying ham radio?

You certainly did...

LHA

"Ready on the left? Ready on the right? Ready on the firing line?
The flag is up, the flag is waving...you have 20 seconds..."

I always figured Dan and Bruce to be 3.950 and 14.313 kind of guys.

"I own Amateur Radio and I'll destroy it before I let you have a sliver of it!"

I expect DICK, Dan, and Bruce to be among the first that Riley tickets.

bb

(Brian) wrote in
om:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article , "Dan/W4NTI"
writes:

Let me just add this Carl of NCI. If you DONT get your mob of
ignorant cbers in line then the real hams will start their own little
group.

So, it IS true...the Kode Klutz Klan is forming!

All along I thought it was just a funny saying...

If you
think we are going to sit by and watch ham radio be turned into a
cess pool like 11m, you are badly mistaken. Expect FCC action.
Expect on the air wars.

Expect Steamy with his PARAMILITARY ham radio?!?

Did you enjoy your part in destroying ham radio?

You certainly did...

LHA

"Ready on the left? Ready on the right? Ready on the firing line?
The flag is up, the flag is waving...you have 20 seconds..."

I always figured Dan and Bruce to be 3.950 and 14.313 kind of guys.

"I own Amateur Radio and I'll destroy it before I let you have a sliver
of it!"

I expect DICK, Dan, and Bruce to be among the first that Riley tickets.

bb


I killfiled Dan for making xenophobic comments on alt.ham-radio.hf - I
don't know if he does that kind of thing on the air, though

Brian wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

N2EY wrote:


Would that some folks would at least listen to reason on what the
rules actually mean.....

The preponderence of evidence would suggest otherwise for some.


For example, the FCC specifies in Part 97 that a -Morse Code- exam
will be given at five (5) WPM. The VECs gathered and decided to
administer a Farnsworth Exam at 13-15 WPM instead.


What *looks* like happened, IMO, is that there really wasn't much
planning for a transition after the fall.


Extra DICK says he foresaw this twenty (20) years ago. Extra Jim and
his bunions have surmised for the last 3+ years that the FCC has no
choice but to dump the code.

So what have you'se guys developed in all this time? Aren't you the
forward thinker on the ARS? You usually have all the answers. Are
you sitting this one out?


We (or I) have answers, but they won't be acknowleged. We lost the war,
and now it is up to those who won it.

A PCTA has to sit this one out because his/her input is no longer
relevent. The paradigm has changed. NCTA's will rule the roost.

- Mike KB3EIA -

(Len Over 21)
writes:

By all the public evidence in here the pro-coders have NOT BEEN IN
CONTROL OF THEMSELVES for years. Not even close.

That's simply not true, Leonard.

You are usually out of control
"in here".

Are you proud of the example
you set?

Do you think others have any
respect for you?

I used to have respect for you.

I don't, anymore.

Someone should exercise self-control these days

Why?

You don't.

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
Brian wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

N2EY wrote:


Would that some folks would at least listen to reason on what the
rules actually mean.....

The preponderence of evidence would suggest otherwise for some.


For example, the FCC specifies in Part 97 that a -Morse Code- exam
will be given at five (5) WPM. The VECs gathered and decided to
administer a Farnsworth Exam at 13-15 WPM instead.


What *looks* like happened, IMO, is that there really wasn't much
planning for a transition after the fall.


Extra DICK says he foresaw this twenty (20) years ago. Extra Jim and
his bunions have surmised for the last 3+ years that the FCC has no
choice but to dump the code.

So what have you'se guys developed in all this time? Aren't you the
forward thinker on the ARS? You usually have all the answers. Are
you sitting this one out?


We (or I) have answers, but they won't be acknowleged. We lost the war,
and now it is up to those who won it.

Absolutely not. This is your future as well.

A PCTA has to sit this one out because his/her input is no longer
relevent. The paradigm has changed. NCTA's will rule the roost.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Yep, leave it up to the other guy...

Too much apathy in amateur radio.