No-Coders have whinned about being forced to learn CW to use HF. Now we have
BPL come along, which will provide MILLIONS of people use of HF without taking
a CW test. Now the No-Code Whinners are Whinning that its not fair that
Millions of people in this country will be able to use HF without a CW Test.

"WA8ULX" wrote:
No-Coders have whinned about being forced to learn
CW to use HF. Now we have BPL come along, which
will provide MILLIONS of people use of HF without
taking a CW test. (snip)


Isn't it amazing how unaware you are? Millions of people with no CW/code
skills have been using HF for decades. Of course, none of them (CB'ers) are
members of the licensed ham radio community. Instead, a couple hundred
thousand Technicians did the right thing and "earned" a license to join the
ARS, all without being offered even the basic HF operating privileges of an
unlicensed CB'er.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message thlink.net...
"WA8ULX" wrote:
No-Coders have whinned about being forced to learn
CW to use HF. Now we have BPL come along, which
will provide MILLIONS of people use of HF without
taking a CW test. (snip)


Isn't it amazing how unaware you are?

Dwight, given Bruce's many posts here over the past few years, I cease
to be amazed by anything he writes. Occasionally I am amazed at my
ability to decode what he has written....

Millions of people with no CW/code
skills have been using HF for decades. Of course, none of them (CB'ers) are
members of the licensed ham radio community.

Are they the model we hams should follow, or should we take them as a
cautionary tale of what could happen to us?

This is not a trivial question. FCC created 27 MHz cb for a definite
purpose, but they quickly lost control of it to the point. The FCC of
1958 could not imagine that people would just ignore the rules to the
point that enforcement of said rules became impossible.

Why did rule-breaking on 27 MHz become the norm rather than the
exception?

Instead, a couple hundred
thousand Technicians did the right thing and "earned" a license

Why the quotes around "earned"? Anyone with a valid amateur radio
license earned it. (Licenses issued as a result of cheating are not
valid, of course, and FCC will invalidate them if sufficient evidence
of cheating is presented).

to join the
ARS, all without being offered even the basic HF operating privileges of an
unlicensed CB'er.

Let's see.....cb user gets a couple of watts on 40/80 channels and two
modes (SSB and AM). Tech gets up to 1500 watts on every amateur band
above 30 MHz, if you just count the most commonly used modes (CW, FM,
SSB, AM, RTTY, packet, APRS, SSTV, FSTV, PSK-31, DSSS, FHSS, more TOR
modes than I can recall, fax, data,.....

Also satellites, repeaters, remote control, remote bases, and a bunch
of other stuff.

Plus almost any new mode or technology that a ham can dream up,
implement and document to the FCC.

Now which is the better deal?

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote:

Are they the model we hams should follow, or should
we take them as a cautionary tale of what could happen
to us?


I wasn't offering CB as a model. In fact, because of its rather unique
history, I don't think one can use CB as a model for much of anything. CB
went to h*ll in a hand basket after Hollywood associated it with the illegal
activities shown in several movies of the time (Convoy, Smokey & the Bandit,
and so on).

The movie, Smokey & the Bandit, was almost classroom instruction on how to
use a CB radio, with Bert Renolds ("Bandit") showing Sally Fields ("Frog")
what buttons to push and what to say. As you may remember, this movie was
about a trucker moving illegal cargo across the country as quickly as
possible, while "Bandit" (with "Frog" riding along) distracted police away
from the truck using his faster car. CB radios were used throughout the
movie.

Obviously, movies like these attracted people with the same "outlaw"
mentality to CB Radio. Today, these people attract others like themselves to
CB Radio. However, if Hollywood had used Ham Radio in those movies instead,
perhaps these same people would have been attracted to Ham Radio and Ham
Radio would have the problems today instead of CB Radio. But, as it is, Ham
Radio does not offer the same attractions for these people (the "outlaw"
image, anonymous operation, and so on). Because of that, most of these
people have no interested in Ham Radio. The few who are interested in Ham
Radio are attracted for what Ham Radio has to offer, not what CB has to
offer. Therefore, these people are not likely to display the same CB-like
behavior in the Ham Radio frequencies. The fact that a good number, perhaps
the majority, of today's Ham Operators owned a CB radio sometime in the past
(or present) supports this conclusion.


Now which is the better deal?


My message was an attempt to undermine Bruce's many posts trashing
Technicians (he is the one constantly bringing up the CB nonsense), not to
make any real comparisons between CB and Ham Radio (or CB'ers and
Technicians).


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

In article , "Dwight Stewart"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote:

Are they the model we hams should follow, or should
we take them as a cautionary tale of what could happen
to us?

I wasn't offering CB as a model.

OK, fine.

In fact, because of its rather unique
history, I don't think one can use CB as a model for much of anything. CB
went to h*ll in a hand basket after Hollywood associated it with the illegal
activities shown in several movies of the time (Convoy, Smokey & the Bandit,
and so on).

I disagree.

Those movies came out *after* wholesale disregard for the rules was already
very common on 27. (Although I've never been a cb user, I have listened there
since the mid-'60s and known many cb users).

At least in the areas where I've lived, regard for the rules was pretty much
tossed away by the mid-to-late 1960s. FCC tried to enforce the rules, but their
forces were simply too few.

The movie, Smokey & the Bandit, was almost classroom instruction on how to
use a CB radio, with Bert Renolds ("Bandit") showing Sally Fields ("Frog")
what buttons to push and what to say. As you may remember, this movie was
about a trucker moving illegal cargo across the country as quickly as
possible, while "Bandit" (with "Frog" riding along) distracted police away
from the truck using his faster car. CB radios were used throughout the
movie.

Never saw the whole thing. This was in the era of antihero movies like "Bonnie
and Clyde", "Dirty Mary Crazy Larry" and such.

Obviously, movies like these attracted people with the same "outlaw"
mentality to CB Radio. Today, these people attract others like themselves to
CB Radio.

That mentality was already in place before the movies were made.

However, if Hollywood had used Ham Radio in those movies instead,
perhaps these same people would have been attracted to Ham Radio and Ham
Radio would have the problems today instead of CB Radio.

But ham radio did not have that "outlaw" mentality. And, back then, such
activities would have brought down tremendous peer opposition by the rest of
the ham community. For example, trying to operate without callsigns on a ham
band would get you DFed and reported to FCC. Not so on 27.

Also, the complexity and cost of amateur equipment at the time meant a serious
investment was needed just to get started.

But, as it is, Ham
Radio does not offer the same attractions for these people (the "outlaw"
image, anonymous operation, and so on).

Only because *existing* hams have the *tradition* of not tolerating such
behavior.

Because of that, most of these
people have no interested in Ham Radio. The few who are interested in Ham
Radio are attracted for what Ham Radio has to offer, not what CB has to
offer. Therefore, these people are not likely to display the same CB-like
behavior in the Ham Radio frequencies. The fact that a good number, perhaps
the majority, of today's Ham Operators owned a CB radio sometime in the past
(or present) supports this conclusion.

Yet in my experience there has been a longstanding problem with the cb "outlaw"
culture trying to migrate to amateur radio. In this area, at least, we have had
serious problems on VHF/UHF repeaters from newcomers who saw 2 meters as a
noise-free version of cb. When their behavior (cussing, failure to ID, refusing
to share the repeater, threats to those who disagreed with them, etc.) was
challenged by other hams, they said "We did this things on 11 and there's
nobody going to stop us from doing them here. We don't care what your stupid
rules say, we're gonna have our fun and if you don't like it, go away". (Almost
verbatim quote.)

The only ace-in-the-hole we had was the ability to shut down the repeater. Even
that did not always work because these folks would sometimes guess the codes.

Now which is the better deal?

My message was an attempt to undermine Bruce's many posts trashing
Technicians (he is the one constantly bringing up the CB nonsense), not to
make any real comparisons between CB and Ham Radio (or CB'ers and
Technicians).

You don't really take Bruce seriously, do you, Dwight? I don't.

He's just another version of Len. In fact the two of them are, philosophically,
exactly the same.

73 de Jim, N2EY

He's just another version of Len. In fact the two of them are,
philosophically,
exactly the same.

73 de Jim, N2EY


No im not like Len, len doesnt even have a License, and secondly your assuming
everything I say is truthful. Use the correct FACTS before you make a correct
statement.

Dwight Stewart wrote:
"N2EY" wrote:

Are they the model we hams should follow, or should
we take them as a cautionary tale of what could happen
to us?



I wasn't offering CB as a model. In fact, because of its rather unique
history, I don't think one can use CB as a model for much of anything. CB
went to h*ll in a hand basket after Hollywood associated it with the illegal
activities shown in several movies of the time (Convoy, Smokey & the Bandit,
and so on).


You're off by a few years. Back in the early 70's, I used a CB in our
company trucks, and there were plenty of rulebreakers then. Most every
time I had to buy parts from a local, I got to see their overheight
towers and linear amps.

- Mike KB3EIA and a looong time ago, KBM-8780! 8^) -

In article , (N2EY)
writes:

You don't really take Bruce seriously, do you, Dwight? I don't.

He's just another version of Len. In fact the two of them are,
philosophically, exactly the same.

Tsk, tsk, tsk...try being mature and not trolling for responses by
attempting
insults on others.

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

Dwight Stewart wrote:
"N2EY" wrote:

Are they the model we hams should follow, or should
we take them as a cautionary tale of what could happen
to us?



I wasn't offering CB as a model. In fact, because of its rather unique
history, I don't think one can use CB as a model for much of anything. CB
went to h*ll in a hand basket after Hollywood associated it with the
illegal
activities shown in several movies of the time (Convoy, Smokey & the
Bandit,
and so on).


You're off by a few years. Back in the early 70's, I used a CB in our
company trucks, and there were plenty of rulebreakers then. Most every
time I had to buy parts from a local, I got to see their overheight
towers and linear amps.

IMDB.com (Internet Movie Data Base) says that "Convoy" and the first "Smokey
and the Bandit" came out in 1977-78.

Art imitates life.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote:

Those movies came out *after* wholesale disregard for
the rules was already very common on 27. (Although
I've never been a cb user, I have listened there since
the mid-'60s and known many cb users).


In the 60's and early 70's, CB was only a minor nuisance, mainly a concern
only for the FCC. Most Americans had never even heard of it. By the end of
the 70's, the number of CB'ers had increased dramatically and problems (and
complaints) were widespread. The only significant thing that happened during
that time, to cause such growth, was the Hollywood movies (and television
shows) featuring CB. And you could clearly see that influence. By the late
70's, the very first channel most people turned to when they got their new
CB home was channel 19 (the truckers' channel). That fact drove truckers
crazy. And the only way most people even knew of that channel was those
Hollywood movies.


But ham radio did not have that "outlaw" mentality.


Really? I thought that was pretty obvious. We were talking about "what
if," not "what is."


And, back then, such activities would have brought down
tremendous peer opposition by the rest of the ham
community. (snip)


You put way too much faith in peer pressure, Jim. Peer pressure would not
control thirty to fifty million people (the estimates of CB'ers by the late
70's) if they had decided to ignore the rules.


Yet in my experience there has been a longstanding problem
with the cb "outlaw" culture trying to migrate to amateur radio.
In this area, at least, we have had serious problems on VHF/
UHF repeaters from newcomers who saw 2 meters as a
noise-free version of cb.


I've traveled to almost a dozen states in the last five years and such
behavior is extremely rare on all of the repeaters I've monitored or used.
Instead, I've mostly heard polite, friendly, people who seemed to be very
serious about their ham radio involvement. Where problems did exist, it was
usually blown out of porportion by guys angry about others using "their"
repeater for things they didn't like. In one situation, I even heard several
guys antagonizing two guys so they could record the results, which they said
was going to be sent to the FCC (minus their part in it, I'm sure). The two
guys were not doing anything wrong before those guys showed up on that
frequency. Because of my experiences, I always wonder about the cause
whenever I hear people talking about a "problem" on a local repeater.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/