"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
link.net...
"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) There's folks like that, Dwight. Yep, you're
right. There are folks who *will* do those jobs. But
they are in the minority and how ironic. Because it is
more the minority immigrant population that does
those jobs than a lot of US citizens.


I give up, Kim. You've convinced yourself American workers are garbage,
and immigrant workers are God's gift to the working world, and absolutely
nothing is going to change your mind. This fits right into the thinking of
many liberals who feel Americans deserve to be poor for all the bad things
they've done, while those poor, downtrodden, immigrants deserve all the
wealth they can get. And, while we sit here debating, wages for low to
medium income workers continue to decline while profits for big business
continues to grow - neither immigrants or a growing number of working
Americans can get decent paying jobs. At the same time, the factories
moving
overseas are forcing more and more middle-aged and older workers out of
their jobs, adding to the numbers forced into lower paying jobs. And the
situation only gets increasingly hopeless as more and more people begin to
think like you. Where do you think this is all going to end, Kim? Do you
honestly believe big business is going to stop their efforts to drive down
wages at your doorstep - that this is never going to affect you or yours?
Even small businesses are going to feel the crunch as fewer can afford to
buy their products. If you can't see the inevitable outcome to all this,
you're simply not looking or are too shortsighted to see. And, with that,
I
give up as I said before.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/



And I give up trying to explain to you that I am affected, Dwight. I work
for and have worked for companies that export jobs out of the United
States--and a good number of employees are people who are here on work
Visas. But, Dwight--I don't have the same fatalist point of view that you
do. This is something that, as I've said, been around for years. Nothing's
changed...it's the ebb and flow of the corporate environment.

And, you know what? Screw you for saying that I think American workers are
garbage!!! Screw you!!! I think people who are fatalistic about the
situation and want to make the situation 100% the fault of US Corporations
and immigrants--illegal and not--are the ones who are garbage. Take that a
smoke it, Dwight.

Kim W5TIT

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
link.net...
"Hans K0HB" wrote:

No, it only shows my utter disdain for biggoted lowlifes,
regardless of complexion. If the foo ****s......


Read the definition of bigot and then explain how the sentence above
doesn't fit that definition, Hans.

Bigot (n.) One whose attitude or behavior expresses
intolerance, as because of race, religion, politics, etc.
(Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary)

By the way, "bigoted" is spelled with a single "g."


Read my lips: Race is irrelevant.


Repeating that is not going to change anything, Hans. Race issues are
everywhere in this country today and are not going to go away simply
because
you want to bury your head in the sand and act like they don't exist.

While we're discussing definitions (and since you like to throw the word
"racism" around so much).

Racism (n.) An irrational belief or advocacy of the
superiority of a given group, people, or nation, usu.
ones own, on the basis of racial differences having
no scientific validity.
(Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary)

Kindly show me where I've expressed a belief in or advocated the
superiority of a group in this discussion, Hans. Simply discussing a
race-related issue in a newsgroup is not racism. As such, your charge of
racism is as patently false as your charge of bigotry.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/



You have repeatedly heralded American workers at the expense of the
immigrant population, Dwight--and irrationally so I might add. As a last
word on this topic--because you seem incapable of a well-rounded discussion
on it, let me say that the situation as it exists for *everyone*--not just
employees but the corporations alike, in this country purely sucks.

I say there's more likelihood that an non-US born person will do a crappy
job; and you say there's more likelihood that a US-born person will do a
crappy job. That given, Dwight, then *WHY* praytell are there so many
non-US born people doing the jobs? You want to say it's "because of wages."
DUH!!!!! I am speaking from the whole picture. We can all stand around all
we want and say, "if the wages were raised, US-born people would do the
jobs." It ain't gonna happen any time soon.

You have been the one in this exchange that has been unreasonable, over
judgmental, spiteful, hateful and quite impatient with the views of
others--so much so that the gist of your whole contribution has been to
condemn the way others believe while offering no real constructive
contribution of your own. Have you offered any solutions? Have you
reasoned any explanations for it being the way it is? Have you once, just
once even *tried* to understand anything anyone else is saying? NO. You
have done nothing but tell me that I think Americans are garbage.

I have provided clear reasons for why I believe the statistics would show
that US-born people would be less likely to perform the jobs that a current
immigrant population will and are performing. You've rebutted with no
evidence to the contrary of what I am saying. You have rebutted also with
nothing but indignation and name calling--or very near it--but haven't
provided anything substantial to tell me that those news reports, radio
talk-shows, news magazine shows, Congress, and real-life conversations I've
been involved with pertaining to this issue, don't exist.

Like I said, we can be indignant all we want. But it won't change what's
going on. We can whine all we want. But it won't change what's going on.
All we can do is be mindful of the situation as it is and create
contingencies for ourselves as we things get too close to home and we start
being threatened. You act like I've never once been affected by the
situation, Dwight. And, I have--a few times. But, each time I have done
what I had to do to get through it. And, starting over again is not beyond
me. It's become a sporting event for me now.

Take your righteousness and shove it. Right where the sun don't shine.
But, before you do...why don't *you* think of some constructive ways to deal
with the situation instead of all the whining and finger pointing you've
been doing.

Kim W5TIT

"KØHB" wrote in message
link.net...

"Dwight Stewart" wrote

And Hans prefers to make sly comments about a spelling error instead
of
discussing the topic.

I've stated my position, and you haven't persuaded me that I'm wrong.
Nothing is left to discuss.

In fact, every new post from you more eloquently makes my point than I
possibly could myself.

With all kind wishes,

de Hans, K0HB
--
http://home.earthlink.net/~k0hb



I absolutely agree, Hans.

Kim W5TIT

"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
But its perfectly okay to pay some union bum a ton of wages for doing a
repetitive task, (a skill that same 14 y.o. that passed a ham test
could
do) therefore jacking the cost of a product, lets say a car for this
example, to a ridiculous price??? (actually both the fast food worker
and
the person on the line at the factory ARE BOTH doing repetitive
tasks....)

Hold on a sec....

"union bum"?

The basic concept that Dwight is talking about is a "living wage" -
meaning jobs that pay enough in wages and benefits to permit people to
live above the poverty line *without* government help. Yes, paying a
living wage makes products and services cost more, but it also removes
people from the govt. support system.

Some say "the marketplace" should set wages. But "the marketplace" is
tilted by a bunch of factors, such as the exportation of jobs and the
importation of workers.

The "living wage" concept and reality are largely a result of
organized labor unions leveling the playing field a bit by unifying
the many workers in negotiating with the relatively few employees. The
really smart employers learned to treat their workers well enough that
they wouldn't unionize.

Look at what working conditions were like in various industries
100-150 years ago, before organized labor had any real power.

Believe it or not, there are alot more people out there trying to
survive on
the poverty level wages. Based strictly on my local region, that would
be
any job under 9-10 dollars per hour before taxes and if any, benefits.
And
unfortunately some of these people are NOT counted, in the unemployment
or
other job related statistics, if they are not participating in the
various
government programs like the employment security commision that Michigan
has... (think its called MichiganWorks)

Yep. $20,000/yr isn't much at all anymore in many parts of the
country. Not to raise a family, anyway.

As for the $15 burrito and coke at Taco Bell, think about this:

At least here in EPA, we have a decent selection of independent diners
as an alternative to the fast food chains. The food in them is not
much more expensive than the chains, and usually better for you. The
workers in those places make at least as much as the fast food chains.
One reason for their survival is that they don't spend bazillions on
advertising. Another is local loyalty of customers.

So what's the answer, Dwight - Ryan - Kim?

73 de Jim, N2EY

I'm out of it...speculation won't solve a thing and I choose not to be as
depressed and bitter and hateful as others...

Kim W5TIT

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

You have repeatedly heralded American
workers at the expense of the immigrant
population, Dwight -- and irrationally so
I might add. (snip)


I'm listening, Kim. Now explain how that is either racism or bigotry? And,
before you make more of a fool of yourself, let me remind you American
workers today (non-immigrants) include blacks, asians, hispanics, and people
of just about all races, ethnic backgrounds, religions, and so on. Ignoring
that, you and Hans decided to scream about racism and bigotry instead.

Because you refuse to see the larger picture, you're the one incapable of
a reasonable discussion.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
news
"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

You have repeatedly heralded American
workers at the expense of the immigrant
population, Dwight -- and irrationally so
I might add. (snip)

I'm listening, Kim. Now explain how that is either racism or bigotry?
And,
before you make more of a fool of yourself, let me remind you American
workers today (non-immigrants) include blacks, asians, hispanics, and
people
of just about all races, ethnic backgrounds, religions, and so on.
Ignoring
that, you and Hans decided to scream about racism and bigotry instead.

Because you refuse to see the larger picture, you're the one incapable
of
a reasonable discussion.

Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/



As any intelligent person will see, Dwight, Hans and I both commented from a
perspective of balance. YOU are the irrational one for not being able to
see that. YOU expressed bigotry--not us.

Kim W5TIT Signing Off.

"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
But its perfectly okay to pay some union bum a ton of wages for doing a
repetitive task, (a skill that same 14 y.o. that passed a ham test
could
do) therefore jacking the cost of a product, lets say a car for this
example, to a ridiculous price??? (actually both the fast food worker
and
the person on the line at the factory ARE BOTH doing repetitive
tasks....)

Hold on a sec....

"union bum"?

Yep... there are a ton of them in this state..... collect a "phat" wage ($20
per hour or more) for a job a kid could do, brag about only working 2 of the
8 hours in a shift, and admit to stealing and other fraudulant
practices..... .yeah, those are bums... Not all union workers are bums, but
there are alot that are.


The basic concept that Dwight is talking about is a "living wage" -
meaning jobs that pay enough in wages and benefits to permit people to
live above the poverty line *without* government help. Yes, paying a
living wage makes products and services cost more, but it also removes
people from the govt. support system.

So.... basically, one way or another people have to pay for it, be it in
higher service/product costs or paying in taxes for a government program.



Some say "the marketplace" should set wages. But "the marketplace" is
tilted by a bunch of factors, such as the exportation of jobs and the
importation of workers.

Yes, that is what is called an idealism, but in reality it doesn't work that
way. Let's look at my county for example..... Republican owners of
businesses and places to rent charge considerably higher for products,
services and housing. These are also in most of the cases the employers in
the area. For example, on average, a single bedroom apartment cannot be
found for less than $350-400. That does not even include utilities. The
average wage around here, what is considered the alleged "living" or minimum
wage is between $5.25-6.00 per hour. Now, do the math on that. The first
of the normal 2 paychecks (paid every 2 weeks) each month barely even
covers the rent, let alone the utilities. Factor in transportation of any
means, and basic food needs, and that exceeds the second check. This does
not include for any savings, clothing or medicine purchases and of course
nothing in the "entertainment" category on the spreadsheet.
That is why alot of people around here are forced to work two jobs. Problem
there is, there is no time left over for family or even better, trying to
take classes to get a degree to get out of the ruts. Typically in my area
as well, certain market indicators such as milk, bread, gasoline etc, is at
least 10-20 percent higher than surrounding counties. Basically they want
you to work for as little as possible, but charge ya up the ying-yang for
everything. Guess that is the American way eh?





The "living wage" concept and reality are largely a result of
organized labor unions leveling the playing field a bit by unifying
the many workers in negotiating with the relatively few employees. The
really smart employers learned to treat their workers well enough that
they wouldn't unionize.

Look at what working conditions were like in various industries
100-150 years ago, before organized labor had any real power.

Just like they are for non-unionized labor now! hihi



Believe it or not, there are alot more people out there trying to
survive on
the poverty level wages. Based strictly on my local region, that would
be
any job under 9-10 dollars per hour before taxes and if any, benefits.
And
unfortunately some of these people are NOT counted, in the unemployment
or
other job related statistics, if they are not participating in the
various
government programs like the employment security commision that Michigan
has... (think its called MichiganWorks)

Yep. $20,000/yr isn't much at all anymore in many parts of the
country. Not to raise a family, anyway.

Or for a single person either...... that 20,000 grand is PRE-TAX and
PRE-BENEFIT (if any) and can quickly become as low as 13,000-15,000 dollars
depending on the circumstances.



As for the $15 burrito and coke at Taco Bell, think about this:

At least here in EPA, we have a decent selection of independent diners
as an alternative to the fast food chains. The food in them is not
much more expensive than the chains, and usually better for you. The
workers in those places make at least as much as the fast food chains.
One reason for their survival is that they don't spend bazillions on
advertising. Another is local loyalty of customers.

So what's the answer, Dwight - Ryan - Kim?
\

I don't assume to have all of the answers, but I am sure that you can go
through just about any company or organization and thin out the dead-wood.
People who just are not returning equivalent value for the service they are
supposed to provide as an employee. There is a case of 3 people who are
"riding the clock out" in my full time employment place of work. And
compared to the remainder of the department they are making more than twice
our wages for similar/same work but just have been here a while. With those
three people to finally retire or move on, that would allow for at least 4-5
more people to replace them, that will ACTUALLY WORK, and still allow for
the rest of the department to get a $1.00 per hour raise, and STILL SAVE
SOME MONEY on overall department wages. The math has been figured out here
on this and it is true....

The other answer is for employers to finally see the value in helping the
employee with training/education. If an employer is credible enough, the
employee will stay with that employer with the new training they have
recieved.

Even though people want to believe otherwise, there are more and more people
having to, and trying to survive on what were supposed to be considered
"high school kid" jobs.



--
Ryan KC8PMX

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
t...

Hey, you want a theory?

How about an effort made to get African Americans (traditionally
Democrat)to move back to the south to balance out the political leanings
of the area?

That's a little far-fetched... a conspiracy to get millions to move just for
political reasons?

Would you up and move all the way across the country, family and ALL,
your entire LIFE change drastically, just so a ceratian politician will get
1 more vote?

Clint
KB5ZHT
--

--

45 Communist Goals for America

http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

--

"Kim" wrote in message ...
"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
But its perfectly okay to pay some union bum a ton of wages for doing a
repetitive task, (a skill that same 14 y.o. that passed a ham test
could
do) therefore jacking the cost of a product, lets say a car for this
example, to a ridiculous price??? (actually both the fast food worker
and
the person on the line at the factory ARE BOTH doing repetitive
tasks....)

Hold on a sec....

"union bum"?

The basic concept that Dwight is talking about is a "living wage" -
meaning jobs that pay enough in wages and benefits to permit people to
live above the poverty line *without* government help. Yes, paying a
living wage makes products and services cost more, but it also removes
people from the govt. support system.

Some say "the marketplace" should set wages. But "the marketplace" is
tilted by a bunch of factors, such as the exportation of jobs and the
importation of workers.

The "living wage" concept and reality are largely a result of
organized labor unions leveling the playing field a bit by unifying
the many workers in negotiating with the relatively few employees. The
really smart employers learned to treat their workers well enough that
they wouldn't unionize.

Look at what working conditions were like in various industries
100-150 years ago, before organized labor had any real power.

Believe it or not, there are alot more people out there trying to
survive on
the poverty level wages. Based strictly on my local region, that would
be
any job under 9-10 dollars per hour before taxes and if any, benefits.
And
unfortunately some of these people are NOT counted, in the unemployment
or
other job related statistics, if they are not participating in the
various
government programs like the employment security commision that Michigan
has... (think its called MichiganWorks)

Yep. $20,000/yr isn't much at all anymore in many parts of the
country. Not to raise a family, anyway.

As for the $15 burrito and coke at Taco Bell, think about this:

At least here in EPA, we have a decent selection of independent diners
as an alternative to the fast food chains. The food in them is not
much more expensive than the chains, and usually better for you. The
workers in those places make at least as much as the fast food chains.
One reason for their survival is that they don't spend bazillions on
advertising. Another is local loyalty of customers.

So what's the answer, Dwight - Ryan - Kim?

73 de Jim, N2EY

I'm out of it...speculation won't solve a thing and I choose not to be as
depressed and bitter and hateful as others...

Kim,

I hope you weren't referring to me....

73 de Jim, N2EY

Clint wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
t...

Hey, you want a theory?

How about an effort made to get African Americans (traditionally
Democrat)to move back to the south to balance out the political leanings
of the area?


That's a little far-fetched... a conspiracy to get millions to move just for
political reasons?

Would you up and move all the way across the country, family and ALL,
your entire LIFE change drastically, just so a ceratian politician will get
1 more vote?

Not if that was the direct approach, but people with agendas tend to
approach things obliquely on occasion.

I recall a few years back when some minorities encouraged lots of
children so as to eventually become much less of a minority. I can think
of some funny names to describe that process! 8^)

Life is so strange.....

- Mike KB3EIA -