And how does this dictate or involve policy?



Dwight Stewart wrote:

"N2EY" wrote:

Perhaps something really bad would have
happened, but the spell prevented it.
Who can ever say?



The specific spell requested could only have resulted in something bad.



Who determines what is a "legitimate" religion
and what isn't? Who *can* determine such a
thing (other than God?)



You just love to ask the "who determines" question, don't you? Especially
when the answer is bloody obvious - like with most other things, people do.
People either decide it's a legitimate religion or not. A small, fringe,
group of supposed believers don't make a religion legitimate (Hale-Bop's
Heaven's Gate cult, for example), especially when the vast majority believe
it's a load of crap (and I do suspect the vast majority don't really believe
wiccas can actually cast spells, charms, and so on).



Why not?



Already answered in the paragraph you quoted (the paragraph taken as a
whole, not sliced up into individual sentences).



Couldn't the same be said of almost all religions
now in existence? Most are based on a book or
series of books written hundreds or thousands
of years ago. (snip)



However, the practices of today's wiccas seem mostly made up from images
and stories in FICTIONAL movies, television, and books, not religious
material and literature written by those who practice that religion. In
other words, since so little is known of the old pagan religions, wiccas
simply 'borrowed' things like black robes, symbols, supposed spells, and so
on, from relatively modern day fiction.



Would you say the same thing about the power
of prayer, miracles, transubstantiation, and other
central beliefs of modern Christianity?



It is one thing to pray for assistance from a God and quite another to
actually claim to have personal powers to cast spells, charms, and so on. I
would ask for similar proof from anyone, in any religion, who claimed to
have such powers (any powers).



Fine - but then why discriminate between "legitimate"
and "illegitimate" religions?



Words alone do not discriminate, Jim. Nobody has been deprived of anything
by my words.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , "Ryan, KC8PMX"
writes:


"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:

If your interest rate is less than 5%, the best loan to get is a 30

year!

It's cheap money. Paying off a house quick is foolish. And the monthly
rate is usually a hell of alot less too. Spend the difference of that
paying off bills or invest it in a mutual fund or something.



Ahh, a financial truism! This belongs with:

The stock market ALWAYS goes up!

What goes up must come down as well too.


Not necessarily. Look at where the Dow was when Bill Clinton took office in
1992...


But that is the beauty of the
stock market. It is a cyclical thing. Ideally it would be like a good
sinus rhythm. It is just merely the knowledge of where to jump in at.


Just as important is knowing when to jump *out*.

And there is the problem for those playing the market for their
retirements. They know about when they are going to jump out, but if the
market doesn't cooperate....oh oh!

(It soitanly do, but over long time periods that are not relevant to
most of us who don't live over 150 years. More importantly it is what
the market is doing around the time you take your money out.)

Move your money into high yield accounts shortly before you retire, that
way you'll have more money when you retire!

Buy high, sell low, go broke...

Only if you know what you are doing and have a really good grasp of the
market.


Which absolutely no one has.

I've listened to investment consultants actually pull this one out of
their hats. I know some older folk who have done this and now have
almost no retirement funds.

Yep... not for the weak or feable to try on thier own if not knowledgeable.


The term is "risk tolerance"- a fancy way of saying how ready you are to
lose
money. And the rule is simple: the closer you are to actually needing the
money, the less your risk tolerance should be.

I have to chuckle at your truism. first, because your friend the real
estate agent uses those sort of arguments to talk you into buying
several thousand or tens of thousands more dollars worht of house.
Second is that You are saying a person who gets out of debt is foolish.

Actually the person I got this truism from and believe in it is Bruce
Williams, the talkshow host. If you do the math, it is fairly true.

I did the math and it's false enough to be a worthless truism.

If you look at the total dollars spent, you can still pay less money on
some of the higher interest lower cost loans than lower interest higher
priced loans. (although I'd never suggest doing that) It's just the
sheer amount of dollars.

Yep. That's why you have to calculate the options.

So the best bet is to pay all the loans off as
quickly as possible.

Not always.

Suppose you're in a situation where money is tight but you can expect big
increases some time in the future. (example: kids are small and one parent is
home with them, but when the youngest reaches school age both parents will be
working full time). In a case like that, having a lower monthly payment may be
the best alternative even if it requires a longer loan term.

Best way to not be a fool is to not go heavily into debt in the first
place. I have a 5 percent loan, but I'll pay it off quickly, I think.

I wouldn't but thats me. What I would do is see if you can refinance at
all
to a lower rate. I have actually seen a interest rate recently somewhere
in
the 3 percent range!! Talk about a cheap loan, hell, I would
refinance/remortgage my neighbors house if I could legally get away with
it!
LOL


Sure - because a house is something you need anyway, it's insured and not
likely to wind up obsolete or useless in a few years. Most of all, almost
no
one can afford to buy a house for cash.


Instead of paying off that low interest loan quickly, one is smarter
paying
off the higher interest loans like automobiles, department and credit
card
charges, and other loans/debts.

Again, it's better to not get into a situation where you would have to
choose which loan you're paying off early.

Well, its not paying the principle that kills ya, its the interest that
does
over a long time. The lesser the interest rate, the less I am interested
in
rushing to pay it off extra early. Either way, one needs to do the math
or
find someone who does understand real estate finance and other financal
calculations to make sure in their own individual circumstances.


Exactly - it's all in the numbers for your particular situation.

The biggest financial boo-boos people make a

- confusing "wants" and "needs" (you may need a car, but you want a new
SUV)
- not having a budget, or not having one based on real data
- looking at their income out-of-context and saying "I can afford X"
without
doing the numbers.

Don't forget succumbing to the credit card problem. It's soooo easy to

live life large when you have 10 credit cards with a 20 thousand liimit
on each card.

That's simply another version of looking at their income out-of-context and
saying "I can afford X" without doing the numbers. If you can't afford to pay
off the credit cards at the end of the month, you really can't afford the
purchase made on them.

I consider credit cards as "payment cards", nothing more.

One of those nifty little life secrets I've found out is that if you
are willing to avoid spending credit money like a drunken sailor while
you are young, you will have much more money for your toys when you get
older.

New verse to an old song:

What shall we do with a drunken sailor
What shall we do with a drunken sailor
What shall we do with a drunken sailor
Ear-lie in the morning?

Put 'im in charge of an Exxon tanker
Put 'im in charge of an Exxon tanker
Put 'im in charge of an Exxon tanker
Ear-lie in the morning!

73 de Jim, N2EY

"Dwight Stewart" wrote

A small, fringe, group of supposed believers don't make
a religion legitimate, especially when the vast majority believe
it's a load of crap.

Since no single religion in the world enjoys a "vast majority" of the
population as "supposed believers", then it follows that the "vast majority"
of the worlds population on average believes that Judaism, Islam,
Christianity, Hinduism, Shintoism, Scientism, Buddhism, etc. are each
individually a "load of crap" also, and not really legitimate. I think
I'll just believe in all of them to make sure my bases are covered.

Sunuvagun!

With all kind wishes,

de Hans, K0HB

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

some snippage

If you look at the total dollars spent, you can still pay less money on
some of the higher interest lower cost loans than lower interest higher
priced loans. (although I'd never suggest doing that) It's just the
sheer amount of dollars.


Yep. That's why you have to calculate the options.


So the best bet is to pay all the loans off as
quickly as possible.


Not always.

Suppose you're in a situation where money is tight but you can expect big
increases some time in the future. (example: kids are small and one parent is
home with them, but when the youngest reaches school age both parents will be
working full time). In a case like that, having a lower monthly payment may be
the best alternative even if it requires a longer loan term.

Well, a qualified yes. I've found people, including myself, sometimes
too optimistic when dealing with "future" things, like earnings and
expenditures. While what you sat is true, I'll take the tack of either
paying the thing off ASAP, or go without. Maybe even save for what I
want. (Modern Heresy Alert!)


Best way to not be a fool is to not go heavily into debt in the first
place. I have a 5 percent loan, but I'll pay it off quickly, I think.

I wouldn't but thats me. What I would do is see if you can refinance at

all

to a lower rate. I have actually seen a interest rate recently somewhere

in

the 3 percent range!! Talk about a cheap loan, hell, I would
refinance/remortgage my neighbors house if I could legally get away with

it!

LOL


Sure - because a house is something you need anyway, it's insured and not
likely to wind up obsolete or useless in a few years. Most of all, almost

no

one can afford to buy a house for cash.



Instead of paying off that low interest loan quickly, one is smarter
paying
off the higher interest loans like automobiles, department and credit
card
charges, and other loans/debts.

Again, it's better to not get into a situation where you would have to
choose which loan you're paying off early.

Well, its not paying the principle that kills ya, its the interest that

does

over a long time. The lesser the interest rate, the less I am interested

in

rushing to pay it off extra early. Either way, one needs to do the math

or

find someone who does understand real estate finance and other financal
calculations to make sure in their own individual circumstances.


Exactly - it's all in the numbers for your particular situation.

The biggest financial boo-boos people make a

- confusing "wants" and "needs" (you may need a car, but you want a new

SUV)

- not having a budget, or not having one based on real data
- looking at their income out-of-context and saying "I can afford X"

without

doing the numbers.

Don't forget succumbing to the credit card problem. It's soooo easy to


live life large when you have 10 credit cards with a 20 thousand liimit
on each card.


That's simply another version of looking at their income out-of-context and
saying "I can afford X" without doing the numbers. If you can't afford to pay
off the credit cards at the end of the month, you really can't afford the
purchase made on them.

I consider credit cards as "payment cards", nothing more.

One of those nifty little life secrets I've found out is that if you
are willing to avoid spending credit money like a drunken sailor while
you are young, you will have much more money for your toys when you get
older.


New verse to an old song:

What shall we do with a drunken sailor
What shall we do with a drunken sailor
What shall we do with a drunken sailor
Ear-lie in the morning?

Put 'im in charge of an Exxon tanker
Put 'im in charge of an Exxon tanker
Put 'im in charge of an Exxon tanker
Ear-lie in the morning!


HeHe!

- Mike KB3EIA -

connection to ham radio is?
Maybe you need a new group: rec.boring.nolife.discussion

Mike Coslo wrote:

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


some snippage

If you look at the total dollars spent, you can still pay less money
on some of the higher interest lower cost loans than lower interest
higher priced loans. (although I'd never suggest doing that) It's
just the sheer amount of dollars.



Yep. That's why you have to calculate the options.


So the best bet is to pay all the loans off as quickly as possible.



Not always.

Suppose you're in a situation where money is tight but you can expect big
increases some time in the future. (example: kids are small and one
parent is
home with them, but when the youngest reaches school age both parents
will be
working full time). In a case like that, having a lower monthly
payment may be
the best alternative even if it requires a longer loan term.


Well, a qualified yes. I've found people, including myself,
sometimes too optimistic when dealing with "future" things, like
earnings and expenditures. While what you sat is true, I'll take the
tack of either paying the thing off ASAP, or go without. Maybe even save
for what I want. (Modern Heresy Alert!)


Best way to not be a fool is to not go heavily into debt in the first
place. I have a 5 percent loan, but I'll pay it off quickly, I think.


I wouldn't but thats me. What I would do is see if you can
refinance at


all

to a lower rate. I have actually seen a interest rate recently
somewhere


in

the 3 percent range!! Talk about a cheap loan, hell, I would
refinance/remortgage my neighbors house if I could legally get away
with


it!

LOL


Sure - because a house is something you need anyway, it's insured
and not
likely to wind up obsolete or useless in a few years. Most of all,
almost


no

one can afford to buy a house for cash.



Instead of paying off that low interest loan quickly, one is smarter
paying
off the higher interest loans like automobiles, department and
credit
card
charges, and other loans/debts.


Again, it's better to not get into a situation where you would
have to
choose which loan you're paying off early.


Well, its not paying the principle that kills ya, its the interest
that


does

over a long time. The lesser the interest rate, the less I am
interested


in

rushing to pay it off extra early. Either way, one needs to do
the math


or

find someone who does understand real estate finance and other
financal
calculations to make sure in their own individual circumstances.


Exactly - it's all in the numbers for your particular situation.
The biggest financial boo-boos people make a

- confusing "wants" and "needs" (you may need a car, but you want a new


SUV)

- not having a budget, or not having one based on real data
- looking at their income out-of-context and saying "I can afford X"


without

doing the numbers.


Don't forget succumbing to the credit card problem. It's soooo
easy to



live life large when you have 10 credit cards with a 20 thousand
liimit on each card.



That's simply another version of looking at their income
out-of-context and
saying "I can afford X" without doing the numbers. If you can't afford
to pay
off the credit cards at the end of the month, you really can't afford the
purchase made on them.

I consider credit cards as "payment cards", nothing more.

One of those nifty little life secrets I've found out is that if
you are willing to avoid spending credit money like a drunken sailor
while you are young, you will have much more money for your toys when
you get older.



New verse to an old song:

What shall we do with a drunken sailor
What shall we do with a drunken sailor
What shall we do with a drunken sailor
Ear-lie in the morning?

Put 'im in charge of an Exxon tanker
Put 'im in charge of an Exxon tanker
Put 'im in charge of an Exxon tanker
Ear-lie in the morning!


HeHe!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Arf! Arf! wrote:

connection to ham radio is?
Maybe you need a new group: rec.boring.nolife.discussion

I've seen your other ng posts mr anonymous, yours are as relevant as
this thread.

p.s. if you let me know your mailreader, I can send you instructions on
how to filter us out.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Well, of course there is no such thing as a simple one sentence answer in
these regards. Specific details would have to be investigated for each
person. In my old man's case..... he feels it is a good deal. And the
funds that he would be recieving would go to his investments which would
yield a better dividend to him, and if things get really hairy, he can
always utilize those funds for care. Again, not the same for others.


--
Ryan KC8PMX

"Why is it one careless match can start a forest fire, but
it takes a whole box to start a barbecue?"



But there are certain things to check very carefully. For example, what
interest rate is used and what are the tax ramifications? What happens if,
heaven forbid, you dad signs the papers and passes away a few
days/weeks/months
later? Or, what about just the opposite, if he outlives the mortgage? (I
know a
93-year-old still active and living alone in his own, paid-off house).

There's also the issue of what happens if he has to go into a nursing
home-type
situation somewhere down the road.

73 de Jim, N2EY

But in regards to the math..... compare a 10,000 dollar mortgage versus the
10,000 car loan with applicable rates. Nowhere did I say that one should
use refinancing money to pay off other debts. The other debts themselves to
be paid off quicker if at a higher interest rate is what I said, even if I
didn't make that painfully clear.

Ryan


OK, let's do the math.

Suppose someone goes out and buys a new car and finances $10,000 of its
price
at, say, 8% for 4 years. Their monthly payment will be $244.13 (thank you,
Quicken98) and the total cost of that $10,000 will be $11,718.24. $1718.24
of
interest.

Now suppose instead they tacked $10,000 onto a home refinance and bought
the
car for cash. Suppose they can get 5% for 30 years. Their monthly payment
increases by only $53.68 - but it does so for three decades! Total cost of
that
$10,000 is $19324.80 - that's $9324.80 of interest, even though the rate
is
much lower.

Of course the situation is muddied by the fact that you pay over a much
longer
period of time, but it's doubtful that the car will last 30 years. It's
further
muddied by tax considerations, and whether/when the borrowers can expect
increases in their income.

Most of all, there's the philosophical question of incurring long-term
debt for
a short-term purchase.

What goes up must come down as well too.

Not necessarily. Look at where the Dow was when Bill Clinton took office
in
1992...

Actually, I am not sure about the Dow, but my fund of which is comprised of
alot of the DJIA stocks, had increased substantially from the early 90's
till about the time baby Bush was elected.



But that is the beauty of the
stock market. It is a cyclical thing. Ideally it would be like a good
sinus rhythm. It is just merely the knowledge of where to jump in at.

Just as important is knowing when to jump *out*.

Yeah... after sending that message I forgot to add that line...... To use
the ghetto vernacular..... My Bad!



(It soitanly do, but over long time periods that are not relevant to
most of us who don't live over 150 years. More importantly it is what
the market is doing around the time you take your money out.)

Move your money into high yield accounts shortly before you retire,
that
way you'll have more money when you retire!

Buy high, sell low, go broke...

Only if you know what you are doing and have a really good grasp of the
market.

Which absolutely no one has.

I've listened to investment consultants actually pull this one out of
their hats. I know some older folk who have done this and now have
almost no retirement funds.

Yep... not for the weak or feable to try on thier own if not
knowledgeable.

The term is "risk tolerance"- a fancy way of saying how ready you are to
lose
money. And the rule is simple: the closer you are to actually needing the
money, the less your risk tolerance should be.

Which should be the case as nearing closer to the retirement age. Less time
to "make up" the losses if they occur then.



I have to chuckle at your truism. first, because your friend the real
estate agent uses those sort of arguments to talk you into buying
several thousand or tens of thousands more dollars worht of house.
Second is that You are saying a person who gets out of debt is foolish.

Actually the person I got this truism from and believe in it is Bruce
Williams, the talkshow host. If you do the math, it is fairly true.

I did the math and it's false enough to be a worthless truism.

Yeah... but you also added something to the equation that was not there in
the first place.



--
Ryan KC8PMX

"Never take too life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway."

Don't forget succumbing to the credit card problem. It's soooo easy to
live life large when you have 10 credit cards with a 20 thousand liimit
on each card.

One card with a 500 dollar limit here.... used for emergencies and the
occaisional on-line purchase.


One of those nifty little life secrets I've found out is that if you
are willing to avoid spending credit money like a drunken sailor while
you are young, you will have much more money for your toys when you get
older.

Bingo.... keep money going into savings and then take the funds out when you
need to purchase, but that is an idealism that most cannot grasp.


--
Ryan KC8PMX

"Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."