"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
ink.net...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:

Amateur radio isn't the military. It isn't a workplace. It isn't a
guild
or craft or union or association of professionals.

Which means that the methods and standards of the military, the
workplace,
the
guild/craft/union or professional associations don't apply to amateur
radio.

Even under such an argument, the role and purpose of amateur
test requirements must be justified by more than just tradition, values
and
other vague and subjective aspects.

With all due respect, Bill,

Isn't that statement really a subjective opinion? I mean, when you get
right down to it, almost everything in the test process is there or is
not there because of someone's subjective opinion that it's
"reasonable" or "necessary".

If you feel that way, so be it.

It's a HOBBY.

It's an avocation. Meaning it's done for its own sake.

But however someone chooses to describe it, does the fact that amateur
radio
isn't the military, a workplace, a guild or craft or union or
association
of
professionals mean that there is no need for amateur radio to have
values,
and
standards? That seems to be your main message here.

The message is the same as that stated by the FCC in R&) for 98-143...
Rules must be justified.

(SNIP)

Sure - that's the easy part. The tough part is "what constitutes
justification?"

Well we have (on code testing) pretty good knowledge as
to what doesn't constitute justification.

And the point I was making still remains valid. Since amateur radio is
not the military, a workplace, a guild or craft or union or
association of professionals, its requirements should not be governed
by those groups.

Yet if you go back to 1968, wasn't an argument in favor of
incentive licensing by the FCC attributed to the needs of
industry for technically inclined people?

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

Bill Sohl wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
om...

"Bill Sohl" wrote in message

ink.net...

"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article ,



(Len Over 21) writes:


Amateur radio isn't the military. It isn't a workplace. It isn't a

guild

or craft or union or association of professionals.

Which means that the methods and standards of the military, the

workplace,

the

guild/craft/union or professional associations don't apply to amateur

radio.

Even under such an argument, the role and purpose of amateur
test requirements must be justified by more than just tradition, values

and

other vague and subjective aspects.

With all due respect, Bill,

Isn't that statement really a subjective opinion? I mean, when you get
right down to it, almost everything in the test process is there or is
not there because of someone's subjective opinion that it's
"reasonable" or "necessary".


If you feel that way, so be it.

Do you believe what you post on ARS testing as a fact?

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

It's all an opinion, Jim. Those who believe they are blessed with the
"facts" in this issue are practicing self delusion.

You mean...gasp...only those with YOUR delusion have the
"correct delusion?"

Whatta concept!

LHA

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

In article ,
(N2EY)
writes:

In article , "Andre Sarkissian"
writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote:
In article ,
(N2EY)
writes:
You seem to be telling us that amateurs should not have any values,
standards
or practices except those necessary to prevent amateurs from interfering
with
users of other radio services.

Absolutely. "Here are your bands, have a nice
day" would be
a very free, open, and enjoyable environment

That's CB.

Andre,

Thank you for clarifying Len's answer perfectly. It's quite clear that he
wants
amateur radio to be nothing other than a multiband version of cb.

Try not to strain yourself putting words into others' messages.

What "words have I put in others messages", Len?

It's clear from your many, many posts here that you want amateur radio to
become a multiband version of cb.

You rail against "rank, status and privilege", and you make it clear you want
one class of license, or no licenses at all.

You're against any sort of standards, values, or traditions in amateur radio.

You're constantly criticizing ARRL without justification, and even accusing
them of fraud - again, with no evidence.

You deny the homebrewing success of others, and the public service
contributions of radio amateurs.

Quite clear what you would like amateur radio to become, good buddy ;-)

Don't get all passionate about your piquish puerile parsonage.

I'm simply pointing out where your many complaining posts lead. If all of the
things you complain about were eliminated from amateur radio, it would become
quite like cb. You'd like that, I think.

You were much better on the pulpit with your old Sermons On
The Antenna Mount.

Typical personal insult from Len rather than debating the issue.

I'm not at all interested in joining the Archaic Radiotelegraphy
Service.

What is that?

Tens of thousands of radio people feel exactly the same way.

How do you know?

What did YOU do back in 1958 when U. S. Class D Citizens
Band was created?

Not much. But by the time I became aware of it, I was repelled by the immature
behavior of some of the users there.

What did YOU do to keep that service from becoming such a wasteland?

NO test whatsoever back then, but licensed it was.

All it took was a fee and a signed form saying the licensee understood the
rules and would abide by them. Yet within a few years of 1958, many of the
licensees simply ignored the rules and did whatever they pleased on that
service.

YOU've had 45 years to correct things.

Not my responsibility, Len. I'm not a cb user. Never have been. All I did was
listen there, and tune away in disgust.

I'm know many cb users are fine people, but the service is a mess, has been for
decades, and it was a mistake to have ever been created.

You seem to think it's a paragon to be emulated.

Doesn't appear that
YOU did anydamnthing except snap your suspenders and
look down at others from a safe distance.

Not my job to fix cb. It's *your* job, Len - you're the "professional in
radio", right? You've been there since before the beginning, right?

What have YOU done to fix cb?

In article , (N2EY)
writes:

Try not to strain yourself putting words into others' messages.

What "words have I put in others messages", Len?

Those following -

It's clear from your many, many posts here that you want amateur radio to
become a multiband version of cb.

That's just your DELUSION and fantasy.

You rail against "rank, status and privilege", and you make it clear you want
one class of license, or no licenses at all.

I've never been for "no license at all." Poor baby, still delerious.

You're against any sort of standards, values, or traditions in amateur radio.

I'm not interested in the standards, values or traditions of the
Archaic Radiotelegraphy Service.

Stop trying to be a proselyte for the Past.

You're constantly criticizing ARRL without justification, and even accusing
them of fraud - again, with no evidence.

Plenty of evidence of hypocrisy, false "representation," no verification
of their alleged ability to "know what is best for amateur radio."

You deny the homebrewing success of others, and the public service
contributions of radio amateurs.

I've never "denied it," delusional fellow.

You've never offered proof YOUR wonderful amazing state-of-the-art
homebrew radios worked...or even existed.

Quite clear what you would like amateur radio to become, good buddy ;-)

I'm NOT your "good buddy." Haven't you got your eyes in?


I'm simply pointing out where your many complaining posts lead. If all of the
things you complain about were eliminated from amateur radio, it would become
quite like cb. You'd like that, I think.

No, you are just voicing your fantasies and delusions and terrible
parsimonous pique and not honoring and respecting your noble
viewpoints.

You were much better on the pulpit with your old Sermons On
The Antenna Mount.

Typical personal insult from Len rather than debating the issue.

You are preachy to a fault. You need a refresher at the
seminary. Or a retreat.


Not much. But by the time I became aware of it, I was repelled by the immature
behavior of some of the users there.

:-)

How old were you in 1958? How "mature" were you that you could
"judge" others?

What did YOU do to keep that service from becoming such a wasteland?

Irrelevant. CB has far too many users for too little bandspace.

What have YOU done to eliminate CB or reduce all that waste?

YOU seem to know all, be all, yet do nothing of value except
extoll your own alleged expertise in OLD radio arts.


YOU've had 45 years to correct things.

Not my responsibility, Len. I'm not a cb user. Never have been. All I did was
listen there, and tune away in disgust.

Poor baby. "Disgust," is it? :-)




I'm know many cb users are fine people, but the service is a mess, has been
for decades, and it was a mistake to have ever been created.

Poor thing. You could have DONE something for the betterment
of mankind in 45 years, yet you have not...


What have YOU done to fix cb?

Irrelevant. What needs to be "fixed?" Restore it to radio amateurs?

You can always file a petition with FCC to abolish CB. Go ahead,
make everyone's day. :-)

It might be done some time. It only took 24 years to make the first
dent in the 40m problem with SW BC interfering with the "rightful
ownership by hams" there. :-)

LHA

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , (N2EY)
writes:

Try not to strain yourself putting words into others' messages.

What "words have I put in others messages", Len?

Those following -

It's clear from your many, many posts here that you want amateur radio to
become a multiband version of cb.

That's just your DELUSION and fantasy.

Why?

You are not a licensee in the Amateur Radio service.

You have no vested interest in the Amateur Radio service, either
in a pecuniary interest, or it's practical value as it exists.

You bad mouth anyone and everyone who dares to stand up for it,
wether they "support" your version of code testing or not.

I'd say you support a multiband version of CB...That may not
havev been your exact words, but it's certainly what you've been
pontificating for.

You rail against "rank, status and privilege", and you make it clear you want
one class of license, or no licenses at all.

I've never been for "no license at all." Poor baby, still delerious.

You've suggested this on several occassions, stating that the
"one license fits all" should be a "license for everyone". So what's
the difference, Lennie?

You're against any sort of standards, values, or traditions in amateur radio.

I'm not interested in the standards, values or traditions of the
Archaic Radiotelegraphy Service.

Stop trying to be a proselyte for the Past.

He was talking about the Amateur Radio service, Lennie...What's
this "Archaic Radiotelegraphy Service" you cite? It's not in FCC
regs.

You call HIM "delusional", yet YOU are citing some radio service
that does not exist...Guess this fits right in with your assertion of
radio services that exists "solely for recreational purposes" that you
tried to pawn off on us a year ago.

Still doesn't fir the facts, Sir Putzalot.

You're constantly criticizing ARRL without justification, and even accusing
them of fraud - again, with no evidence.

Plenty of evidence of hypocrisy, false "representation," no verification
of their alleged ability to "know what is best for amateur radio."

Absolutely NO evidence has been provided by YOU, despite your
assertions to the contrary.

And we're STILL waiting on your "proof" that the ARRL is
dishonest.

That was yet another LennieLie that's yet to be substantiated.

You deny the homebrewing success of others, and the public service
contributions of radio amateurs.

I've never "denied it," delusional fellow.

You've never offered proof YOUR wonderful amazing state-of-the-art
homebrew radios worked...or even existed.

And you've never offered us any proof of YOUR "state-of-the-art"
projects either, Lennie. Whare are they?

Quite clear what you would like amateur radio to become, good buddy ;-)

I'm NOT your "good buddy." Haven't you got your eyes in?

You got THAT one right, Lennie...I doubt you are ANYone's "good
buddy".

I know I wouldn't hang out with an idiot like you.

I'm simply pointing out where your many complaining posts lead. If all of the
things you complain about were eliminated from amateur radio, it would become
quite like cb. You'd like that, I think.

No, you are just voicing your fantasies and delusions and terrible
parsimonous pique and not honoring and respecting your noble
viewpoints.

A lie on your part, Leonard H Anderson.

You've "offered" numerous acidic assertions about Amateur Radio
in general and many licensed Amateurs in particular, yet offer "proof"
on none of them.

You were much better on the pulpit with your old Sermons On
The Antenna Mount.

Typical personal insult from Len rather than debating the issue.

You are preachy to a fault. You need a refresher at the
seminary. Or a retreat.

Just one more "DoAsISayNotDoAsIDo" Lennism, two faced scumbag
that he is...

We can find hundreds of LennieRants making the very same
accussation authored by Lennie.

Not much. But by the time I became aware of it, I was repelled by the immature
behavior of some of the users there.

:-)

How old were you in 1958? How "mature" were you that you could
"judge" others?

How old are YOU in 2003, Lennie. You seem to have the same
problem TODAY.

What did YOU do to keep that service from becoming such a wasteland?

Irrelevant. CB has far too many users for too little bandspace.

So we are just going to allow that type of behaviour to run
rampant through the spectrum...?!?!

What have YOU done to eliminate CB or reduce all that waste?

But...but...but...LENNIE!

YOU are the "radio professional", here! You've been telling us
that all along!

What are YOU doing to make it better?

YOU seem to know all, be all, yet do nothing of value except
extoll your own alleged expertise in OLD radio arts.

Whew! Didya get bruised by the door swinging back and smacking
you in the face, Your Putziness?

How many rants have ceneterd over what you did in 1950s era Japan
at a rear area radio relay statuion...?!?!

YOU've had 45 years to correct things.

Not my responsibility, Len. I'm not a cb user. Never have been. All I did was
listen there, and tune away in disgust.

Poor baby. "Disgust," is it?

Must be, Lennie.

And must be YOU are disgusted, too...You've told us about how
utilitarian CB is, yet I've challenged you to tell us just HOW
"utilitarian" it is by detailing your use of it...

You've not done so.

I'm know many cb users are fine people, but the service is a mess, has been
for decades, and it was a mistake to have ever been created.

Poor thing. You could have DONE something for the betterment
of mankind in 45 years, yet you have not...

YOU could have done so for 70+ years, Lennie.

Where are YOU accomplishments? I do not own ONE electronic
device that says "Made Better By LHA" on it.

What have YOU done to fix cb?

Irrelevant. What needs to be "fixed?" Restore it to radio amateurs?

Only an idiot would ask "What needs to be "fixed?"" about CB
radio.

Oh...wait...an idiot DID ask what was wrong!

You can always file a petition with FCC to abolish CB. Go ahead,
make everyone's day.

Too bad we can't petition them to abolish you, Lennie.

It might be done some time. It only took 24 years to make the first
dent in the 40m problem with SW BC interfering with the "rightful
ownership by hams" there.

And Amateurs will be enjoying that reduced interference even
while you are rotting in the nursing home, Lennie...

Steve, K4YZ

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , (N2EY)
writes:

Try not to strain yourself putting words into others' messages.

What "words have I put in others messages", Len?

Those following -

It's clear from your many, many posts here that you want amateur radio to
become a multiband version of cb.

That's just your DELUSION and fantasy.

Not at all. It's the sum total of what you've been preaching here for
years and years. It explains the motive behind every single post
you've made here.

You rail against "rank, status and privilege", and you make it clear you want
one class of license, or no licenses at all.

I've never been for "no license at all."

That's why I wrote: "one class of license, or no licenses at all".

So you want one class of license - just like cb used to have.

You're against any sort of standards, values, or traditions in amateur radio.

I'm not interested in the standards, values or traditions of the
Archaic Radiotelegraphy Service.

What is the "Archaic Radiotelegraphy Service"?

You obviously don't want any sort of standards, values, or traditions
in amateur radio - again, just like cb.

You're constantly criticizing ARRL without justification, and even accusing
them of fraud - again, with no evidence.

Plenty of evidence of hypocrisy, false "representation," no verification
of their alleged ability to "know what is best for amateur radio."

You have presented no evidence of any of that, just League-bashing
based on your obvious desire for amateur to be without a strong
national organization. Cb never had a strong national organization....

You deny the homebrewing success of others, and the public service
contributions of radio amateurs.

I've never "denied it," delusional fellow.

Yes, you have. When you repeatedly tell untruths about others'
projects, even when corrected, that's denial. Or lying - take your
pick.

You've never offered proof YOUR wonderful amazing state-of-the-art
homebrew radios worked...or even existed.

You'll just have to take my word for it, Len. Besides, you've made it
quite clear that you would reject any "proof" offered by anyone.

And I've never claimed that any of my homebrew projects were "amazing"
or "state-of-the-art".

Cb did not allow its users to homebrew legally.

Quite clear what you would like amateur radio to become, good buddy ;-)

I'm NOT your "good buddy." Haven't you got your eyes in?

Y'know, Len, with that attitude you're not anyone's good buddy.

I'm simply pointing out where your many complaining posts lead. If all of the
things you complain about were eliminated from amateur radio, it would become
quite like cb. You'd like that, I think.

No,

Yes. It's what you obviously want amateur radio to become. One license
class, no homebrewing, no standards, values or traditions, no strong
national organization, no public service.....

Not much. But by the time I became aware of it, I was repelled by the immature
behavior of some of the users there.

How old were you in 1958?

Figure it out. Oh wait, you couldn't remember how old you were in
1948, nor what screen names you've used in rrap.

How "mature" were you that you could "judge" others?

I didn't encounter cb until about 1965. And I found the on-air
behavior of those involved to be extremely immature. I was mature
enough to know I wanted no part of what I heard on the cb channels. So
I just left it alone.

Who are you to judge others, Len? You don't act very mature in here.
In fact, you act here just like the classic schoolyard bully in search
of attention. Why?


What did YOU do to keep that service from becoming such a wasteland?

Irrelevant.

It's very relevant. You are, or were, a cb user, weren't you?

CB has far too many users for too little bandspace.

So it's not their fault? What about personal responsibility for ones'
actions? I guess you reject that, too. "Oh, there aren't enough
channels, so I'll break all the rules..."

What have YOU done to eliminate CB or reduce all that waste?

Not my concern. I've never been a cb user. As long as those folks
don't have a negative affect on amateur radio, I really don't care
what they do on their channels.

And I've never said I wanted to eliminate cb.

YOU seem to know all, be all, yet do nothing of value except
extoll your own alleged expertise in OLD radio arts.

Len, you just described yourself perfectly.

YOU've had 45 years to correct things.

Not my responsibility, Len. I'm not a cb user. Never have been. All I did was
listen there, and tune away in disgust.

Poor baby. "Disgust," is it? :-)

Yep. Disgust.

I'm know many cb users are fine people, but the service is a mess, has been
for decades, and it was a mistake to have ever been created.

Poor thing. You could have DONE something for the betterment
of mankind in 45 years, yet you have not...

Not my concern, Len.

What have YOU done to fix cb?

Irrelevant.

In this case, I think you're saying "nothing".

What needs to be "fixed?"

Simple - just have the users follow the rules.

Restore it to radio amateurs?

That wouldn't fix it.

You can always file a petition with FCC to abolish CB. Go ahead,
make everyone's day. :-)

Not my concern. Amateur radio is my interest, not cb.

The fact is that the cb mess is partly *your* fault, Len. You have
loudly proclaimed your status as a "PROFESSIONAL IN RADIO!!!!!!!!!!!"
here many, many, many times.

Yet the reason FCC created Class C and Class D (27 MHz) cb was because
Class A and Class B (UHF) cb weren't getting many users, due in large
part to lack of suitable manufactured equipment.

The "PROFESSIONALS IN RADIO!!!!!!!!!!!" couldn't figure out how to
build inexpensive UHF cb radio sets back in the '50s, so FCC created
the 27 MHz version. You "PROFESSIONALS IN RADIO!!!!!!!!!!!" figured
out how to make inexpensive 27 MHz sets. I've seen the schematics of
those sets - they weren't "state of the art" 20 years before they were
manufactured. But you "PROFESSIONALS IN RADIO!!!!!!!!!!!" made them,
so the users bought them. And misused them. The rest is history.

It wasn't hams who made a mess of 11 meters. It was "PROFESSIONALS IN
RADIO!!!!!!!!!!!" like you, Len. Now you want to do the same thing to
amateur radio. No thanks.

It might be done some time. It only took 24 years to make the first
dent in the 40m problem with SW BC interfering with the "rightful
ownership by hams" there. :-)

You can't even get the history of that problem right, Len.

In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(N2EY)
writes:

Try not to strain yourself putting words into others' messages.

What "words have I put in others messages", Len?

Those following -

It's clear from your many, many posts here that you want amateur radio to
become a multiband version of cb.

That's just your DELUSION and fantasy.

Not at all. It's the sum total of what you've been preaching here for
years and years. It explains the motive behind every single post
you've made here.

Wrong. You are still in the delusion of living in PAST standards
and practices of amateur radio. Anything against your fraternal-
order idea of amateur radio is labeled by you as "wrong" or some
evil personified by Citizens Band Radio Service.

The FCC is not required to sanctify or regulate a fraternal order
as ordained by the ARRL. That is your fantasy and delusion.

Citizens Band Radio Service has been in existance for longer
than 45 years and several private land mobile radio services (now
collected under PLMRS) have been in existance longer than that.
Times have changed. ARRL can no longer assume guardianship
over US amateur radio service as it did before Internet and improved
citizen ability to communicate directly with the FCC. The OTHER
U.S. radio services have changed and adapted to modern times.

Why do you NEED all thsoe "classes" in an a voluntary, avocational
recreational radio activity? Is it just to give yourself an elitist "title
of nobility" to "sign" behind your name (or in lieu of it)? Do you
NEED the artificiality of class-distinction to "prove" yourself to the
world...or to prove you are "better" than others...so that you can
feel justified in putting down others?

It would seem that you DO have such a NEED.

I find all of radio and electronics in general to be a fascinating area
of technology, so much so that I became a hobbyist in that a long
time ago and made it my life's work...even though experienced and
with an aptitude for a totally different kind of work. But, you and
other "titled," self-important radio amateurs want to put that down,
stoutly maintaining an absolute rigidity to the artificiality of rank,
status, privilege AS IF amateur radio were the SAME as a guild or
union. Everyone (according to yourself) MUST follow the "rules,"
not the regulations, but the "rules" as laid down by one membership
organization which still is just a minority "representative" political
action entity.

Do not deny that ARRL is a political-interest group. Their federal
tax returns are evidence that they retain a lobbying service in DC
as well as a law firm. They are NOT a government entity, just a
large fraternal order that survives on publication and product
resale and advertising profits. ARRL deludes you and others into
thinking they are always "representative" of radio amateurs...but
over the years of successful brainwashing through self-promotion,
they remain a minority political entity on "representation."

You will not accept such a minority status yet it is obvious reality.
The FCC has recognized this some time ago but you still support
defend and sometimes "fight" for the ARRL on matters and blame
the FCC for your perceived "evils" while turning hypocritical and
extoling the ARRL as "doing the right thing" when decisions align
themselves with your ARRL-influenced personal opinions.

Case in point: As of the close of 28 October 2003, the FCC ECFS
had a total of 3,877 comments on 14 petitions for regulation
changes on retention (7) or elimination (7) of the morse code test
for U.S. amateur radio. Comments were from all over the nation,
individuals to groups, licensed and unlicensed in amateur radio.
There is far more access and FREEDOM for all citizens to make
our grievances known to our government...directly if we desire,
not having to use a "middleman" group to do our collective
communications...a "middleman" that pretends to be "representative
for all" yet is not, by all evidence, representative to any but a small
coterie within that organization.

You desire to have such commentary CLOSED to any but the elite
already-licensed. Such is against the very basic First Amendement
to the United States Constitution. The FCC is not obligated in any
way to sanctify its regulations in the maintenance of an essentially
private fraternal order. Yet you insist that this "fraternal order" MUST
be maintained. Others insist more fervently, ready to fight at
all costs. Such a "must" is delusional, fantasyland imagining.

Amateur radio is a voluntary, avocational, recreational activity done
for no pecuniary reason. A hobby. Fun. But some want to rule,
to regulate the "fun" solely for their self-interests. Not technical
regulations but the activity itself and this strange absolute NEED to
be just like a professional service group with rigid adherence to
activity rules, jargon, even paper forms ("official" radiogram blanks).
This strange NEED for rigid adherence extends to absolute honoring
of tradition AND an intolerance to anything new that threatens the
perceived glory and honor of any tradition or its history. All who
have any interest whatsoever MUST be licensed to the imaginary
"dedication and committment to the ARS community."

All who refuse to Believe in such a fantasy are heretics, lesser
humans, worthy of contempt by the self-perceived nobility...as
evidenced by all the archives in the Google.

The first message of this particular thread started off with an
emotion-loaded play to readers of a father (authority figure) that
was supposed to uphold tradition, honor, glory, etc. as a "positive
attribute" or "family value" to pass along to generations. Over
morse code proficiency that has been dropped or never considered
by every other radio service? That's fantasy, delusional thinking,
suitable only for fraternal orders looking for status quo stability.

My father and father-in-law would no doubt have great fun at such
"important family values" to pass on had they been alive today.
They were both born a year before the first radio signals crossed
the Atlantic and three years before the Wright brothers successfully
flew a heavier-than-air vehicle...and both saw the first humans set
foot on the moon by live television from a quarter million miles away.

Change happened in their lifetimes. Great, profound changes.
Change will continue to happen in many things and in many lives.
We can all adapt and meld with the future, become part of it, or
remain in the past in a fantasyland of old things, old ideas, old
standards, old skills that no longer apply to the majority living in
reality.

I am for the now, the future, reality and freedom. I will not live in
your delusional fantasyland. Neither will millions of others.

LHA

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(N2EY)
writes:

Try not to strain yourself putting words into others' messages.

What "words have I put in others messages", Len?

Those following -

It's clear from your many, many posts here that you want amateur radio to
become a multiband version of cb.

That's just your DELUSION and fantasy.

Not at all. It's the sum total of what you've been preaching here for
years and years. It explains the motive behind every single post
you've made here.

Wrong.

No, it's quite right. It's what you want for amateur radio, Len. You've been
saying it for years now, and it goes far beyond code test elimination.

You are still in the delusion of living in PAST standards
and practices of amateur radio.

Be specific. What are YOUR standards and practices? What would YOUR standards
and practices for the amateur radio service be?

Anything against your fraternal-
order idea of amateur radio is labeled by you as "wrong" or some
evil personified by Citizens Band Radio Service.

Not at all. And the question is about YOUR proposed standards and practices.
It's clear you will not stand for anyone to say anything that doesn't admire
the way cb has evolved.

The FCC is not required to sanctify or regulate a fraternal order
as ordained by the ARRL. That is your fantasy and delusion.

So what do you suggest?

Citizens Band Radio Service has been in existance for longer
than 45 years and several private land mobile radio services (now
collected under PLMRS) have been in existance longer than that.
Times have changed.

What, exactly, does that mean? 27 MHz CB started out on 23 channels and got 17
more back in the '70s. Started out with AM and got SSB - both modes are still
in use. Started out with licenses but dropped them in the 70s.

In fact, cb hasn't changed much since the '70s, has it?

The amateur radio of today is quite different from the amateur radio of 30
years ago, but the cb of today isn't much different from the cb of 30 years
ago. Yet you would have the amateur radio service emulate the cb radio service.
Why?

ARRL can no longer assume guardianship
over US amateur radio service as it did before Internet and improved
citizen ability to communicate directly with the FCC.

We've alwyas had direct access to FCC. Didn't you know about typewriters and
the post office?

The OTHER
U.S. radio services have changed and adapted to modern times.

You mean like cb has adapted?

Let's see, we hams have a wider variety of modes, equipment, and operating
activities than ever before.

Why do you NEED all thsoe "classes" in an a voluntary, avocational
recreational radio activity?

License classes allow beginners to get started with an easy-to-get license and
work their way up to full privileges over time. Of course if someone wants to
get a full-privileges license "right out of the box", they can choose to do
that, too. Right now, FCC thinks 3 classes is the right number.

Why does all this bother you? You don't have an amateur license and you don't
seem to want one. In fact, you want to prevent people under the age of 14 from
getting amateur licenses.

Is it just to give yourself an elitist "title
of nobility" to "sign" behind your name (or in lieu of it)?

It's an identifier. There may be other folks out there with a name similar to
mine, but nobody else has my amateur radio callsign.

I *earned* the callsign N2EY by passing the required tests. I've held it and
used it for 26 years and I'm proud of it. Is that wrong, Len? You seem to think
it's wrong for me to be proud of my accomplisments in amateur radio.

You've never had any amateur radio callsign and never operated any amateur
radio station (as the control operator, anyway) yet you preach to us endlessly
about amateur radio.

Do you
NEED the artificiality of class-distinction to "prove" yourself to the
world...or to prove you are "better" than others...so that you can
feel justified in putting down others?

Not at all.

Does my use of my callsign in postings cause you to feel "put down", Len? Poor
baby!!!!!!

It would seem that you DO have such a NEED.

Just your "delusion and fantasy", Len. Perhaps you're jealous.

All you're really saying is that you favor just one class of amateur license.
Why not just come right out and say that? You're not being paid by the word.

I find all of radio and electronics in general to be a fascinating area
of technology, so much so that I became a hobbyist in that a long
time ago and made it my life's work...even though experienced and
with an aptitude for a totally different kind of work.

And you remind us that you're a "PROFESSIONAL IN RADIO!!!!!!!!!!!" in almost
every posting here. Then you get mad because we don't bow down to you.

But, you and
other "titled," self-important radio amateurs want to put that down,
stoutly maintaining an absolute rigidity to the artificiality of rank,
status, privilege AS IF amateur radio were the SAME as a guild or
union.

Is there something wrong with guilds or unions - particularly ones that anyone
can join?

Everyone (according to yourself) MUST follow the "rules,"
not the regulations, but the "rules" as laid down by one membership
organization which still is just a minority "representative" political
action entity.

What *are* you talking about, Len? Give us an example of these "rules".

And what would YOUR "rules" be? Should we hams follow the example set by cb?
You'd like that....

Do not deny that ARRL is a political-interest group.

Where have I done that? It's a good thing ARRL is a political-interest group.
Do you think anyone else could lead the fight against BPL? I sent them a check
to do just that.

Oh wait - no strong national organization ever emerged for cb....

Their federal
tax returns are evidence that they retain a lobbying service in DC
as well as a law firm.

So? Those are good things. (where's that checkbook?)

They are NOT a government entity, just a
large fraternal order that survives on publication and product
resale and advertising profits.

And membership dues. Only $39/yr.

ARRL deludes you and others into
thinking they are always "representative" of radio amateurs...but
over the years of successful brainwashing through self-promotion,
they remain a minority political entity on "representation."

That's just your delusion and fantasy, Len. All anyone needs to do is to find
out what ARRL policies are, and decide whether they agree or not. I don't agree
with all ARRL policies, and I let the directors know that.

You will not accept such a minority status yet it is obvious reality.

You're a minority of one, Len.

The FCC has recognized this some time ago but you still support
defend and sometimes "fight" for the ARRL on matters and blame
the FCC for your perceived "evils" while turning hypocritical and
extoling the ARRL as "doing the right thing" when decisions align
themselves with your ARRL-influenced personal opinions.

You're just ARRL bashing again. Typical.

Case in point: As of the close of 28 October 2003, the FCC ECFS
had a total of 3,877 comments on 14 petitions for regulation
changes on retention (7) or elimination (7) of the morse code test
for U.S. amateur radio. Comments were from all over the nation,
individuals to groups, licensed and unlicensed in amateur radio.

So? FCC has *always* accepted comments from all interested parties. Back in the
'60s, when their were far fewer hams and commenting to FCC meant making an
original and a pile of paper copies, FCC got over 6000 comments to their
restructuring proposals.

There is far more access and FREEDOM for all citizens to make
our grievances known to our government...directly if we desire,
not having to use a "middleman" group to do our collective
communications...a "middleman" that pretends to be "representative
for all" yet is not, by all evidence, representative to any but a small
coterie within that organization.

The freedom has always been there, Len. We had typewriters and postal service
back then. Anyone could comment. ARRL encouraged it then and they encourage it
now. So do I. You don't.

You desire to have such commentary CLOSED to any but the elite
already-licensed.

That's not correct. You are mistaken. In error. Flat out wrong.

I'm for anyone interested being able to comment.

I challenge you to show where I have been against *ANYONE* commenting to FCC.
Even you.

Of course, if someone expresses an opinion or comment, they have to be able to
"take the heat" of having others disagree with, and debate, their opinions and
commentary. You can't tolerate being disagreed with.

Such is against the very basic First Amendement
to the United States Constitution.

I'm for anyone interested being able to comment.

I challenge you to show where I have been against *ANYONE* commenting to FCC.
Even you.

Didn't you write:

"Shut the hell up, you little USMC feldwebel."

right here in rrap a day or so ago, Len? Is that in the spirit of the very
basic First Amendment to the United States Constitution?

If that's how "PROFESSIONALS IN RADIO!!!!" behave, I'll stick with amateurs,
thank you very much.

The FCC is not obligated in any
way to sanctify its regulations in the maintenance of an essentially
private fraternal order. Yet you insist that this "fraternal order" MUST
be maintained. Others insist more fervently, ready to fight at
all costs. Such a "must" is delusional, fantasyland imagining.

So are you telling me to "shut the hell up"?

Amateur radio is a voluntary, avocational, recreational activity done
for no pecuniary reason. A hobby. Fun.

How would you know, Len? You aren't a ham and never have been.

But some want to rule,
to regulate the "fun" solely for their self-interests.

That would be you, Len.

Not technical
regulations but the activity itself and this strange absolute NEED to
be just like a professional service group with rigid adherence to
activity rules, jargon, even paper forms ("official" radiogram blanks).
This strange NEED for rigid adherence extends to absolute honoring
of tradition AND an intolerance to anything new that threatens the
perceived glory and honor of any tradition or its history. All who
have any interest whatsoever MUST be licensed to the imaginary
"dedication and committment to the ARS community."

So what are YOUR standards and practices for the amateur radio service, Len?
How would you set things up?

You tell us endlessly what you don't like, but except for a constant insistence
on dropping the one remaining Morse code test and bashing ARRL and traditions
you don't tell us how *you* would order things. Oh wait, you wanted an age
requirement of 14 years for any amateur license. CB used to have an age
requirement, back when they had licenses....

All who refuse to Believe in such a fantasy are heretics, lesser
humans, worthy of contempt by the self-perceived nobility...as
evidenced by all the archives in the Google.

Give us an example.

The first message of this particular thread started off with an
emotion-loaded play to readers of a father (authority figure) that
was supposed to uphold tradition, honor, glory, etc. as a "positive
attribute" or "family value" to pass along to generations.

I'm not him, Len.

How many children have you raised?

Over
morse code proficiency that has been dropped or never considered
by every other radio service? That's fantasy, delusional thinking,
suitable only for fraternal orders looking for status quo stability.

No, it was an observation of the value of standards. Maybe you don;t like those
standards - fine. Tell us, specifically, what *your* standards would be.

How many classes of license? Requirements for same? Callsigns? Operating
procedures? Subbands by mode and license class? Power limits? Authorized modes?


Get specific. This isn't a Zen experience where we describe things by saying
what they aren't.

My father and father-in-law would no doubt have great fun at such
"important family values" to pass on had they been alive today.

Were they radio amateurs? Did they even know what amateur radio is?

Are you going to tell us how they could cuss us out in foreign languages for
daring to disagree with them?

If my ancestors could outcuss your ancestors, would it make them right?

Would your ancestors be proud of you telling a complete stranger to:

"Shut the hell up, you little USMC feldwebel." ???

Those are *your* words, Len. No smiley, either.

Hey - I've got an idea! Let's start a thread that's a collection of quotes from
"Len The Zen", where he shows us how "PROFESSIONALS IN RADIO" behave in "civil
debate"! We can start out with that "USMC feldwebel" one, and add more as they
are found.

They were both born a year before the first radio signals crossed
the Atlantic and three years before the Wright brothers successfully
flew a heavier-than-air vehicle...and both saw the first humans set
foot on the moon by live television from a quarter million miles away.

How does that make them somehow qualified to judge amateur radio policy today?

btw, it's been 31 years since any humans got to the moon. Commercial supersonic
air travel has recently ended. If someone still as a working TV from 1969, they
can still use it to watch today's programs...

And cb is still a mess.

Change happened in their lifetimes. Great, profound changes.
Change will continue to happen in many things and in many lives.
We can all adapt and meld with the future, become part of it, or
remain in the past in a fantasyland of old things, old ideas, old
standards, old skills that no longer apply to the majority living in
reality.

Give us some specifics besides dropping the Morse code test, Len.

I am for the now, the future, reality and freedom.

Yeah, me too, Mom's apple pie, truth, justice and the American way...

I will not live in
your delusional fantasyland.

You often sound like you just visited the Magic Kingdom, Len....;-)

Neither will millions of others.

Who are these "millions"? Do you claim to represent them? Talk about delusions
and fantasies....

All that over a 5 wpm code test for a license in a radio service you have no
interest in joining. Fascinating.

And what the heck is a "feldwebel"?

Answering my own question:

And what the heck is a "feldwebel"?

"Corporal"

Godwin's Law invoked.

73 de Jim, N2EY