"KØHB" wrote in message link.net...
"Mike Coslo" wrote


So we operate class one while operating 50 watts. Another bump.

Lifes a

[female canine expletive deleted]

and then you die and they give away your call sign!


Maybe not!

If Hans' "no expiration date" Class A is adopted by FCC, they *won't*
give away your call sign unless somebody proves to FCC that you're
really, truly, stone cold dead. Probably require a close family member
to send in the papers - and if you've left instructions not to, your
survivors could keep your call out of circulation for a long time.

Aren't GROLs issued "for life"? If so, there's your precedent for a
non-expiring FCC license.....

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote

If Hans' "no expiration date" Class A is adopted by FCC, they *won't*
give away your call sign unless somebody proves to FCC that you're
really, truly, stone cold dead.

ALRIGHT!!!!!! You **CAN** take it with you! Hey, I like my plan more and
more all the time.

Sunuvagun, I bet Dwight is gonna really spin up his rotors when he thinks
about this.

73, de Hans, K0HB
--
"I called them mad and they called me mad,
but damn it, they outvoted me."

"N2EY" wrote in message
m...
Aren't GROLs issued "for life"?

73 de Jim, N2EY

Never thought about that. What happens to my GROL when I become a SK? How
would they know?

73 de Bert
WA2SI

KØHB wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote


So we operate class one while operating 50 watts. Another bump.


Lifes a bitch, and then you die and they give away your call sign!

Don't know why, Hans, but that one made me howl! 8^)

odd justification tho'.

But thanks, I needed that today......


- Mike KB3EIA -

In article . net, "KØHB"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote

If Hans' "no expiration date" Class A is adopted by FCC, they *won't*
give away your call sign unless somebody proves to FCC that you're
really, truly, stone cold dead.

ALRIGHT!!!!!! You **CAN** take it with you!

bwaahaahaaa!

Did you not realize that particular consequence of the non-expiring Class A,
Hans?

Hey, I like my plan more and
more all the time.

Me, too!

73 de Jim, N2EY

Mike Coslo wrote in :

N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message
...


snippage


I don't agree there Jim! True enough, its an arbitrary thing, but what
you are talking about is power limits and sub-bands, and I am talking
about the qualifications to operate *at all*. the other folks simply
operate within the limitations of their licenses, and the 10 year and
1 day class B ham is no ham at all anymore.


Just like the old Novices when their licenses ran out.

Point is, that hypothetical Class B had a window of 8 *years* to
upgrade to Class A. You said it took you all of a week to get ready
for Extra.

Granted, I had a head start, and didn't need as much time as some,
but
I find it hard to argue that 10 years is a good time limit when it
isn't needed. Anyone that takes ten years to upgrade to Extra is
probably not going to upgrade to Extra. Ooops, class A.


I keep drawing parallels between the second class license and
Generals. We try to get people out to operate on field day, and you
can get some pretty strange setups. First a Ham with less than 2
years time in grade would have to have a control op.


Why?

If he/she is operating 50 Watts, they are outside their priveliges.


OK. So turn down the power.

Sigh... our club has a group of guys and gals that make a big
production out of FD. It isn't what everyone does, but its what we do.
We don't want to run 50 watts. The first year I went to field day, I
was a Technician. I got to run a high power station with a control op
logging. It was great, and was what really got me interested in getting
my General. then I logged while he opped.

Then next year, when I had my General, I could op by myself,
discovering the joy of overnight operation.

My points are two. We worked in this rank beginner from a
technician
up, and didn't interfere with the station operation, and it worked
well. No adjustments needed. And I was part of the group from the
git-go.


As long as the power level is less than 50 W, that Class B ham could
operate any freq, any mode, as the control op.

Ahh, but now we have to set up a special low power station. The low
power ghetto I was talking about. For good or bad, my club runs high
power during Field Day.


Most clubs don't.

We do.


And if the power levels were restructured, the points from a 50 watt
station could make more difference than those from a 1500 W station.

Another "if-then" situation. Gaw, were getting a lot of them.



I'm taking my reference of "Class B Ghetto" from
experience with the GOTA station. The first year our GOTA station
operated, many of the people operating it called it a "toy station".


That's *their* problem.

And it becomes *our* problem then. Since then, I have worked hard
to
make the GOTA operators feel like part of the group. move that tent
nearer the big tent. Keep more people than just myself and the person
at the mic there. I'm a little surprised, Jim. All that I'm talking
about is making these potential hams and inactive hams feel like maybe
we *want* them there. Your arguments sound a little like some of the
old cranks I hear once in a while.


They could op one of the high power stations, park on a frequency, and
rack up points, and the lowly GOTA station has to hunt and pounce. It
wasn't until I put PSK31 on the GOTA station that it took off.


So? They're used to being Big Guns. Anybody who wants to be a Big Gun
could just get a Class A and be done with it.

After two years.


note: I'm not suggesting that newbies use high power. Just the
opposite in fact. Hunt and pounce at low power builds competence in
the new ham. But its so hard to compete with power when you're working
like crazy to get a QSO, and the guy in the next tent is racking them
up at a high rate.


That's part of the experience requirement. Part of the plan.

And remember the power multiplier idea. If the 50 watt station is
hunt/pecking 20 per hour but has a 3.5 multiplier, they're making more
points than the Big Gun doing 60 per hour.

"if-then"


We have hams what operate now at field
day that would suddenly have to have a control op (therefore taking
myself or another Extra away from a station)



Not at all! Existing hams would retain their existing privs under
Hans' proposal.

I'm saying that I'm sitting with the guy as a control op and not
operating myself.


If they're existing hams (say, Generals) they could still do what
they've always done. If they're unlicensed, or not licensed for the
freq/power/mode in use, they still need a control op today.

And one of the *best* ways for them to learn is to work with an
experienced op.


Of course the second class
ham could operate a 50 watt or less station, but that would mean
that either we change our setup - all stations except GOTA are full
output - or set up a special station just for the second class hams,
a sort of low power ghetto.

You mean you folks operate 1500 W on FD? (that's "full output")

Actually we operat @1kW. My bad.


FD rules can be changed, y'know.


Heck, the GOTA station can run more power. Maybe this
is no problem for you, but for others it isn't so good


Try QRP some time ;-)

Nothing wrong with QRP. I'm just noting possible problems as outlined
above. If you're going QRP then everyone is operating at less than 5
watts.


Only if the current rules are kept.

The fact is that if a non-Extra wants to operate FD, there has to be
a control op present whenever the non-Extra exceeds his-her subband
restrictions. That's a lot more onerous than turning down the power
to 50 W.

I stayed in my bands when I was a General at FD. Wasn't a
problem.


It's been so long since I had to worry about such things.....;-)

Back in the late '60s and early '70s, there were *four* FD power
levels: QRP, 50 W, 150 W, and the legal limit, IIRC.

Could be. But if we went back to that, the clubs could be
forced to
make a decision to either run what they would like to run, take
control ops away from available stations for those who don't have
time in grade. (or the proper upgrade) or make that little ghetto
for the second class Hams. I really don't think that is a good way
to welcome new people. YMMV.


There's another option: Change the rules so that different power
levels could be used for different stations in the same multi setup.
(It used to be this way!)

This might work well enough, but I still don't care for
relegating the
class B to the ghetto, or to remove an Extra or class A from
operating to be a control op.


Then let the Class Bs keep a log or feed the generator or cook
weenies. Or, heaven forbid, take the Class A test. Is it gonna kill
'em?

I know that the others I work with on field day wouldn't be too
wild
about that sort of thing either. These are people that love working
high power, and enjoy racking up points.


Uh-huh. How many points did they make per transmitter last year?

We were 3A

W3YA + W3GA (GOTA) did 7362 points - I don't have the breakdown for
each transmitter. We don't get any power multiplier at all, so what you
see is what we get.

Inexperienced users can get working
with us, but adding another station (and putting us in another class)
for a 50 watt station isn't going to be too popular with them - and
after all, they and myself are the ones doing the setup and teardown,
so as long as we are within the rules, we should be allowed to do
this. I just don't think that the proposed setup will be both newbie
friendly and experienced friendly at the same time.


Then the rules need some refining.


Note I'm not saying things couldn't work. I'm saying that every
time I
turn around, this proposal is bumping into something else, and not
necessarily in a good way.


So does any other proposal. FD is once a year. It's supposed to be a
learning experience, last time I checked.


It starts out pretty simply, but then we have
to do all kinds of things to shoehorn it into the real world. So we
end up changing this so can coexist with the thing we changed before
in order to avoid messing that up which came about as a result of
modifying the rule that contradicted...........


Then what's *your* solution, Mike?

I don't agree with all of Hans' ideas, but at least he's put forth a
coherent proposal.

I gave mine a while back, and I'll give it again.

Technician

General

Extra

Same rules as now. Tests expanded for General and Extra.

Minimum impact, and there ya go. Question pool change.


I'd have three license classes, all renewable, minimum 1 year in each
class experience required, power levels 100W, 400W, 1500W,
subbands-by-license-class on HF/MF, and better writtens.

And I'm still a little surprised, Jim. Perhaps I shouldn't point
out
any problems that will happen under Hans' proposal? I get the
impression from your answers - "so what" "that's their problem" "Uh
Huh" and the like, that you must think my objections are as Hans
describes me sometimes - "novel".

What the heck? Perhaps it's better if I just keep the old yap
shut?
Anytime things are changed, things are impacted. We can point them out
before hand, or run into them blind.

You might not think my concerns are valid, but I can tell you that
I
know plenty of people that have the same concerns. We are all novel I
guess! 8^) Maybe I point out small facts - but I've pointed out a
pretty fair number of them, and I'm not looking very hard. Any small
fact is insignificant by itself, but when a lot of them come up.....


- Mike KB3EIA -



I have a proposal of my own. Here it is.

All General and above become Class As, everyone else becomes a Class B.
Class As get all privileges. Class Bs get 80, 40, 15, 10 and everything
above that, i.e. everything any one of the equivalent licence classes had
before but whole bands, not just subbands. Only Class As could be VEs, and
I would limit Class Bs to 200W, i.e. Novice power level. No other limits,
restrictions, etc. of any kind.

The only losers would be Techs who could no longer run 1500W. I suspect
that few do, and that those who do would have no difficulty passing a
Class A test.

I think that this has the virtue of being more politically acceptable than
Hans' version.

73 de Alun, N3KIP

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 23:59:22 GMT, Bert Craig wrote:

Never thought about that. What happens to my GROL when I become a SK? How
would they know?

A GROL has no expiration date and the serial number is never
reissued anyhow. Your ghost/incarnation/whatever will retain the
operating privileges. It may do a better job of operating than
several allegedly "live" commercial operators that I have run
across.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

Alun wrote:


I have a proposal of my own. Here it is.

All General and above become Class As, everyone else becomes a Class B.
Class As get all privileges. Class Bs get 80, 40, 15, 10 and everything
above that, i.e. everything any one of the equivalent licence classes had
before but whole bands, not just subbands. Only Class As could be VEs, and
I would limit Class Bs to 200W, i.e. Novice power level. No other limits,
restrictions, etc. of any kind.

The only losers would be Techs who could no longer run 1500W. I suspect
that few do, and that those who do would have no difficulty passing a
Class A test.

I think that this has the virtue of being more politically acceptable than
Hans' version.

Eeek! Your proposal almost makes it if we were to adoopt a systems such
as what Hans proposes. But I don't think those Technicians would like
losing their licenses after ten years - if they didn't upgrade, of course.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...
"Dee D. Flint" wrote:

Such exposure doesn't give anyone
sufficient information to make an
informed decision.


Of course, that's just an opinion, isn't it? You're not an expert on the
human decision making process and there are no studies to show whether it
is
or isn't sufficient, right? If not, your opinion is no more valid than
mine.


Again you are NOT reading my words.
I've repeatedly stated that one can make
judgments based on risks, dangers, and
harm even if they have not experienced it.
Murder does serious harm and therefore
does not need to be experienced.
However where such detrimental effects
don't come into play, it is not possible to
say one does or does not like something
unless they have experienced it. (snip)


Again, we make decisions each day without personal experience to
necessarily back it up. This includes who we associate with, who we date,
what we eat for lunch, what books we buy, what shows we watch on
television,
whether we marry, and the list goes on virtually forever. And, again, your
demand for more here shows a serious lack of respect for people's ability
to
make their own choices.


I refrain from forming opinions on things
I've never tried. There will be things that
I will never form an opinion on. (snip)


I find that very difficult to believe, Dee. Did you try actual marrage
before actually getting married? Did you try driving on the highway before
deciding to get a license? Did you try your job before actually taking it?
Again, there are many things we choose to do or not do without actually
trying them first.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/


Poifect!!!!!!!!

Kim W5TIT

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message
...

snippage

I don't agree there Jim! True enough, its an arbitrary thing, but what
you are talking about is power limits and sub-bands, and I am talking
about the qualifications to operate *at all*. the other folks simply
operate within the limitations of their licenses, and the 10 year and 1
day class B ham is no ham at all anymore.

Just like the old Novices when their licenses ran out.

Point is, that hypothetical Class B had a window of 8 *years* to
upgrade to Class A. You said it took you all of a week to get ready
for Extra.

Granted, I had a head start, and didn't need as much time as some, but
I find it hard to argue that 10 years is a good time limit when it isn't
needed.

We don't really know what the effects of a nonrenewable license would be today,
because it's been so long since such a thing existed.

Anyone that takes ten years to upgrade to Extra is probably not
going to upgrade to Extra. Ooops, class A.

We don't know that for sure either, because for so long it's been a "round
tuit" thing. No deadline, no pressure, upgrade when you feel like it. Changing
to an "up or out" system would set up a very different environment. Maybe
better, maybe worse.

I keep drawing parallels between the second class license and Generals.
We try to get people out to operate on field day, and you can get some
pretty strange setups. First a Ham with less than 2 years time in grade
would have to have a control op.

Why?

If he/she is operating 50 Watts, they are outside their priveliges.

OK. So turn down the power.

Sigh... our club has a group of guys and gals that make a big
production out of FD. It isn't what everyone does, but its what we do.
We don't want to run 50 watts.

OK, fine. You want to protect the way things are because they permit your club
to do what it does. Nothing wrong with wanting to keep it that way!

The first year I went to field day, I was
a Technician. I got to run a high power station with a control op
logging. It was great, and was what really got me interested in getting
my General. then I logged while he opped.

Under those circumstances your license didn't matter because he was the control
op.

Then next year, when I had my General, I could op by myself,
discovering the joy of overnight operation.

You joined the "Order of Boiled Owls", IOW.

My points are two. We worked in this rank beginner from a technician
up, and didn't interfere with the station operation, and it worked well.
No adjustments needed. And I was part of the group from the git-go.

Sure! And all that Hans' proposal would do is require another year of
in-training status with a control op. That's a downside of *any* experience
requirement.

As long as the power level is less than 50 W, that Class B ham could
operate
any freq, any mode, as the control op.

Ahh, but now we have to set up a special low power station. The low
power ghetto I was talking about. For good or bad, my club runs high
power during Field Day.


Most clubs don't.

We do.

I guess it comes down to "do we make the rules for the few or the many?"

And if the power levels were restructured, the points from a 50 watt
station could make more difference than those from a 1500 W station.

Another "if-then" situation. Gaw, were getting a lot of them.

All I'm saying is that the rules (both FCC and FD) can change. In fact, I think
the FD rule of "all QSOs count at the power level of the highest power rig"
should definitely be changed because it homogenizes the FD experience too much.


I'm taking my reference of "Class B Ghetto" from
experience with the GOTA station. The first year our GOTA station
operated, many of the people operating it called it a "toy station".

That's *their* problem.

And it becomes *our* problem then.

I mean that the folks who call it a "toy" station have a problem.

Since then, I have worked hard to
make the GOTA operators feel like part of the group. move that tent
nearer the big tent. Keep more people than just myself and the person at
the mic there.

All good stuff.

If nothing else, points is points, no matter how ya make 'em.

One of my tricks for many years was to bring along a WW2 surplus ARC-5 receiver
and dynamotor, plus a hank of wire. A few minutes before 10 AM, while everyone
was either setting up or sidewalk superintending, I'd toss the wire in a tree
and hook the dynamotor to my car's battery. Tune in W1AW and copy the special
FD bulletin (CW, of course) for 100 bonus points - the first 100 points of the
club score.

Just the looks on people's faces were worth it.

I'm a little surprised, Jim. All that I'm talking about
is making these potential hams and inactive hams feel like maybe we
*want* them there.

And that's a good thing! I'm all for it!

Your arguments sound a little like some of the old
cranks I hear once in a while.

All I'm saying is that there are good and bad things that will result from
Hans' ideas (if adopted). I think the good may outweigh the bad. YMMV.

They could op one of the high power stations, park on a frequency, and
rack up points, and the lowly GOTA station has to hunt and pounce. It
wasn't until I put PSK31 on the GOTA station that it took off.

So? They're used to being Big Guns. Anybody who wants to be a Big Gun
could just get a Class A and be done with it.

After two years.

Yup. Whether that's a problem or not is really an opinion question.

note: I'm not suggesting that newbies use high power. Just the opposite
in fact. Hunt and pounce at low power builds competence in the new ham.
But its so hard to compete with power when you're working like crazy to
get a QSO, and the guy in the next tent is racking them up at a high rate.

That's part of the experience requirement. Part of the plan.

And remember the power multiplier idea. If the 50 watt station is
hunt/pecking 20 per hour but has a 3.5 multiplier, they're making more
points than the Big Gun doing 60 per hour.

"if-then"

Sure.

We have hams what operate now at field
day that would suddenly have to have a control op (therefore taking
myself or another Extra away from a station)

Not at all! Existing hams would retain their existing privs under Hans'
proposal.

I'm saying that I'm sitting with the guy as a control op and not
operating myself.

If they're existing hams (say, Generals) they could still do what
they've always done. If they're unlicensed, or not licensed for the
freq/power/mode in use, they still need a control op today.

And one of the *best* ways for them to learn is to work with an
experienced op.

Of course the second class
ham could operate a 50 watt or less station, but that would mean that
either we change our setup - all stations except GOTA are full output -
or set up a special station just for the second class hams, a sort of
low power ghetto.

You mean you folks operate 1500 W on FD? (that's "full output")

Actually we operat @1kW. My bad.

FD rules can be changed, y'know.

Heck, the GOTA station can run more power. Maybe this
is no problem for you, but for others it isn't so good


Try QRP some time ;-)

Nothing wrong with QRP. I'm just noting possible problems as outlined
above. If you're going QRP then everyone is operating at less than 5 watts.

Only if the current rules are kept.

The fact is that if a non-Extra wants to operate FD, there has to be a
control
op present whenever the non-Extra exceeds his-her subband restrictions.
That's
a lot more onerous than turning down the power to 50 W.

I stayed in my bands when I was a General at FD. Wasn't a problem.

It's been so long since I had to worry about such things.....;-)

Back in the late '60s and early '70s, there were *four* FD power levels:
QRP, 50 W, 150 W, and the legal limit, IIRC.

Could be. But if we went back to that, the clubs could be forced to
make a decision to either run what they would like to run, take control
ops away from available stations for those who don't have time in grade.
(or the proper upgrade) or make that little ghetto for the second class
Hams. I really don't think that is a good way to welcome new people.
YMMV.


There's another option: Change the rules so that different power levels
could
be used for different stations in the same multi setup. (It used to be
this
way!)

This might work well enough, but I still don't care for relegating the
class B to the ghetto, or to remove an Extra or class A from operating
to be a control op.


Then let the Class Bs keep a log or feed the generator or cook
weenies. Or, heaven forbid, take the Class A test. Is it gonna kill
'em?

I know that the others I work with on field day wouldn't be too wild
about that sort of thing either. These are people that love working high
power, and enjoy racking up points.

Uh-huh. How many points did they make per transmitter last year?

We were 3A

W3YA + W3GA (GOTA) did 7362 points - I don't have the breakdown for each
transmitter. We don't get any power multiplier at all, so what you see
is what we get.

Not exactly. Your setup made 4696 QSOs (!!). CW and digital modes are worth 2
points, and there were bonuses for independence of mains and other things I'm
sure your setup had. And the GOTA station didn't add to your class of
operation.

7362 points with three transmitters works out to 2454 points per transmitter.
If we count the GOTA station as, say "half a transmitter", that drops to 2104
points per transmitter.

On that same weekend, I operated 1B-1 battery/QRP and made 2480 points.

Inexperienced users can get working
with us, but adding another station (and putting us in another class)
for a 50 watt station isn't going to be too popular with them - and
after all, they and myself are the ones doing the setup and teardown, so
as long as we are within the rules, we should be allowed to do this. I
just don't think that the proposed setup will be both newbie friendly
and experienced friendly at the same time.

Then the rules need some refining.


Note I'm not saying things couldn't work. I'm saying that every time I
turn around, this proposal is bumping into something else, and not
necessarily in a good way.


So does any other proposal. FD is once a year. It's supposed to be a
learning experience, last time I checked.


It starts out pretty simply, but then we have
to do all kinds of things to shoehorn it into the real world. So we end
up changing this so can coexist with the thing we changed before in
order to avoid messing that up which came about as a result of modifying
the rule that contradicted...........


Then what's *your* solution, Mike?

I don't agree with all of Hans' ideas, but at least he's put forth a
coherent proposal.

I gave mine a while back, and I'll give it again.

Technician

General

Extra

Same rules as now. Tests expanded for General and Extra.

Minimum impact, and there ya go. Question pool change.

Works for me! But we have toi remember that outfits like NCVEC are working in
the opposite direction.

I'd have three license classes, all renewable, minimum 1 year in each
class experience required, power levels 100W, 400W, 1500W,
subbands-by-license-class on HF/MF, and better writtens.

And I'm still a little surprised, Jim. Perhaps I shouldn't point out
any problems that will happen under Hans' proposal?

No, you definitely should.

I get the impression
from your answers - "so what" "that's their problem" "Uh Huh" and the
like, that you must think my objections are as Hans describes me
sometimes - "novel".

Nope.

I just don't think they're as big a deal as you do, that's all.

What the heck? Perhaps it's better if I just keep the old yap shut?

Nope. Not at all.

Anytime things are changed, things are impacted. We can point them out
before hand, or run into them blind.

Exactly!

You might not think my concerns are valid, but I can tell you that I
know plenty of people that have the same concerns. We are all novel I
guess! 8^) Maybe I point out small facts - but I've pointed out a pretty
fair number of them, and I'm not looking very hard. Any small fact is
insignificant by itself, but when a lot of them come up.....

All I'm saying is that whether the good outweighs the bad is a matter of
opinion. And opinions vary all over the place.

73 de Jim, N2EY