Dave Head wrote in
:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:36:08 GMT, Mike Coslo
wrote:

And what a short-lived phenom that was! Now at the university
level at
least, the Techies and Engineers to a large extent are not from the US,
while our kids are busy getting MBA's and becoming lawyers!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Ya' go where the money is! Engineering is great, but the law, and
management is greater if you're talking from a money angle.

Engineers are workers. They should probably have a division in the
UAW, 'cuz sure as you're born, if you're a worker (employee), you're
going to get abused.

Those doing the abusing are the guys with the MBAs.

There are no longer enough jobs to be had to simply leave if you get
abused, you mostly have to take it. If you do leave, chances are
you'll just get abused by different people.

Lawyers hang out a shingle and charge what the traffic will bear. They
don't have someone else setting their pay rates, nor screwing around
with their health insurance, making them sign away their rights to
anything they might be able to think up and patent, etc.

Look at what's happened to programmers. Their livelihood has been
destroyed both by importation of cheap labor (H1B visas) and export of
the work entirely to places like India, Russia, etc. If you move the
needle on the idiot meter at all, you may just get into programming
school. Then you can figure significantly in the unemplyoment
statistics, or the "working poor" statistics.

You mostly can't export what an MBA does, nor can cheap foreign labor
be imported to do it. Ditto for the law practicioners.

So, no need to wonder why the kids aren't falling all over themselves
to get in line to be abused.

I think the kids today are smarter than we were...

Dave Head


Bingo!

Alun wrote:
Dave Head wrote in
:


On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:36:08 GMT, Mike Coslo
wrote:


And what a short-lived phenom that was! Now at the university
level at
least, the Techies and Engineers to a large extent are not from the US,
while our kids are busy getting MBA's and becoming lawyers!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Ya' go where the money is! Engineering is great, but the law, and
management is greater if you're talking from a money angle.

Engineers are workers. They should probably have a division in the
UAW, 'cuz sure as you're born, if you're a worker (employee), you're
going to get abused.

Those doing the abusing are the guys with the MBAs.

There are no longer enough jobs to be had to simply leave if you get
abused, you mostly have to take it. If you do leave, chances are
you'll just get abused by different people.

Lawyers hang out a shingle and charge what the traffic will bear. They
don't have someone else setting their pay rates, nor screwing around
with their health insurance, making them sign away their rights to
anything they might be able to think up and patent, etc.

Look at what's happened to programmers. Their livelihood has been
destroyed both by importation of cheap labor (H1B visas) and export of
the work entirely to places like India, Russia, etc. If you move the
needle on the idiot meter at all, you may just get into programming
school. Then you can figure significantly in the unemplyoment
statistics, or the "working poor" statistics.

You mostly can't export what an MBA does, nor can cheap foreign labor
be imported to do it. Ditto for the law practicioners.

So, no need to wonder why the kids aren't falling all over themselves
to get in line to be abused.

I think the kids today are smarter than we were...

Dave Head



Bingo!

So let me get this right..... the secret to happiness is to become an
MBA or a lawyer, even if you would rather be a technophile?

I've had a screwed up outlook all these years!!!!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in
t:

Dave Head wrote:
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:36:08 GMT, Mike Coslo
wrote:


And what a short-lived phenom that was! Now at the university
level at
least, the Techies and Engineers to a large extent are not from the
US, while our kids are busy getting MBA's and becoming lawyers!

- Mike KB3EIA -


Ya' go where the money is! Engineering is great, but the law, and
management is greater if you're talking from a money angle.

Engineers are workers. They should probably have a division in the
UAW, 'cuz sure as you're born, if you're a worker (employee), you're
going to get abused.

Those doing the abusing are the guys with the MBAs.

There are no longer enough jobs to be had to simply leave if you get
abused, you mostly have to take it. If you do leave, chances are
you'll just get abused by different people.

Lawyers hang out a shingle and charge what the traffic will bear.
They don't have someone else setting their pay rates, nor screwing
around with their health insurance, making them sign away their rights
to anything they might be able to think up and patent, etc.

Look at what's happened to programmers. Their livelihood has been
destroyed both by importation of cheap labor (H1B visas) and export of
the work entirely to places like India, Russia, etc. If you move the
needle on the idiot meter at all, you may just get into programming
school. Then you can figure significantly in the unemplyoment
statistics, or the "working poor" statistics.

You mostly can't export what an MBA does, nor can cheap foreign labor
be imported to do it. Ditto for the law practicioners.

So, no need to wonder why the kids aren't falling all over themselves
to get in line to be abused.

I think the kids today are smarter than we were...

I doubt it! Capitalism is a grand thing, but it destroys the
people who
practice it if they don't have a guiding principle beyond pecuniary
accumulation.

Want to know what happens to us when we are all MBA's and lawyers
and
the rest of the world is doing all the manufacturing and the things too
*low* for us? It isn't going to be pretty!

- Mike KB3EIA -



Right again, but the trouble is that there is no longer any incentive to go
for a productive career. You can't blame people for not lining up to be
exploited, even if the end result is likely to be destruction of the
soceity as a whole. What we have now is a management culture in which
having a low number of overworked employees is considered to be desirable.

Dave Head wrote in
:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:52:34 GMT, "Phil Kane"
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 13:18:03 GMT, Dave Head wrote:

Engineers are workers. They should probably have a division in the
UAW, 'cuz sure as you're born, if you're a worker (employee), you're
going to get abused.

There have been engineer's unions for at least the last 50 years in
the aircradt industry. Having worked one year as an engineer for an
airplane company at the beginning of my career, I can see why. Real
professionals look down on unionizing.

Real professional actors, football players, baseball players, etc.
don't seem to look down on unionization.

My guess is that the airplane engineers get screwed less, and have more
secure jobs, save the periodic downturns in the aircraft industry
itself.

Those doing the abusing are the guys with the MBAs.

Read it not as ab-using, but as con-fusing.

Lawyers hang out a shingle and charge what the traffic will bear.
They don't have someone else setting their pay rates, nor screwing
around with their health insurance, making them sign away their rights
to anything they might be able to think up and patent, etc.

HAH! Talk to any associate at any decent-sized law firm and get an
education otherwise.

I bet, but then there's that "organization" thing. Work for an
organization (be an employee) and... you need a union.

As for going solo - did it, been there, got the T-shirt, and I
wouldn't do it again. I love to do law - I hate to run a business.

I'd hate it too, I think.

You mostly can't export what an MBA does,

Give it time, my man - they used to say the same thing about
engineers.

MBA's are performing a service where they have to be present. They're
not going to offshore the pizza delivery guy, either - he has to be
here to do the work, too. Of course, entire corporate headquarters
have moved off-shore I guess, so apparently it is possible.

nor can cheap foreign labor be imported to do it. Ditto for the law
practicioners.

Wanna bet? The top two guys in my law school class were from India,
and that was many years ago. One is also an MBA and CPA and runs
his family's extensive business interests in the 'States, and the
other is one of the top immigration lawyers in California.

I suppose if they are educated here... sure. But growing up in India,
Russia, Korea, and learning Indian, Russian, or Korean law won't do you
any good in the USA. The problem with engineering and IT is that the
laws of physics, and the principles of good software design and
construction, are universal. What works in India, Russia, and Korea
works here, and vice-versa.

It's easy to make such generalities.

The generality that holds is: If you are an employee, you need a union.
I think exceptions are pretty rare. Again, the number of people, 30
million, in poverty-level wage jobs (= $8.25 / hr) pretty much says
that this is right. All those people would likely do much better with a
union.

I'm a government engineer. I work for the Navy. Don't need a union,
right? Wrong! In the 1980's, the OPM illegally capped the across the
board raises of engineers on the advanced engineering pay scale. Who
should step up to the plate but the Treasury Employee's Union, and sued
the socks off the government for 2 decades. Finally won the case last
year. Last week I got a check as partial payment for compensation for
that misdeed - $1090.95. Unions don't have to strike to get results,
even if the results come later. Maybe the OPM will realize eventually
that even tho they're the government, they're not omnipotent, and have
to play by the rules, like everyone else. Anyway, I'm better off
because of a union.

Without a resurgence of union power, I think this country is headed for
a third-world model society, where there are the very rich, and the
very poor, and nobody in between. The people slinging code and
designing/building bridges won't be on the "very rich" side, either.
They'll be the ones that are willing to work for $8.00 / hr,
side-by-side with the Indians, Mexicans, Russians, etc. that will be
quite happy with that amount. Its a matter of how far in the future
that is... I guess about 50 years. What's your guess?

Dave Head


Actually, you know India is a common law country, so Indian law would be
very similar to US law, and Indian lawyers all speak English too. Being
licenced to practice is quite another thing altogether, but I could see
paying someone in Delhi to draw up a contract, etc. Of course the case law
would be different, but they can access Lexis/Nexis and WestLaw from there
too, so legal research is no problem.

In article , Dave Head
writes:

It has to do
with the waning of union power, I think, and the mistake that "tech" people
including engineers make that they don't need a union. If you're an
employee,
you need a union. Period. But the IT bunch won't join one, and look what
happened to them.

Dave,

I partly agree with you. A lot of the problem is waning union power.

But that doesn't mean everyone needs to be unionized. The mere existence of
strong unions benefits nonunion workers, too, because often employers with
nonunion shops will treat their workers better in order to stave off
unionization.

But as the percentage of labor that is unionized decreases, that effect
diminishes also.

73 de Jim, N2EY

On 29 Dec 2003 04:36:31 GMT, Alun wrote:

Dave Head wrote in
:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:52:34 GMT, "Phil Kane"
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 13:18:03 GMT, Dave Head wrote:

Engineers are workers. They should probably have a division in the
UAW, 'cuz sure as you're born, if you're a worker (employee), you're
going to get abused.

There have been engineer's unions for at least the last 50 years in
the aircradt industry. Having worked one year as an engineer for an
airplane company at the beginning of my career, I can see why. Real
professionals look down on unionizing.

Real professional actors, football players, baseball players, etc.
don't seem to look down on unionization.

My guess is that the airplane engineers get screwed less, and have more
secure jobs, save the periodic downturns in the aircraft industry
itself.

Those doing the abusing are the guys with the MBAs.

Read it not as ab-using, but as con-fusing.

Lawyers hang out a shingle and charge what the traffic will bear.
They don't have someone else setting their pay rates, nor screwing
around with their health insurance, making them sign away their rights
to anything they might be able to think up and patent, etc.

HAH! Talk to any associate at any decent-sized law firm and get an
education otherwise.

I bet, but then there's that "organization" thing. Work for an
organization (be an employee) and... you need a union.

As for going solo - did it, been there, got the T-shirt, and I
wouldn't do it again. I love to do law - I hate to run a business.

I'd hate it too, I think.

You mostly can't export what an MBA does,

Give it time, my man - they used to say the same thing about
engineers.

MBA's are performing a service where they have to be present. They're
not going to offshore the pizza delivery guy, either - he has to be
here to do the work, too. Of course, entire corporate headquarters
have moved off-shore I guess, so apparently it is possible.

nor can cheap foreign labor be imported to do it. Ditto for the law
practicioners.

Wanna bet? The top two guys in my law school class were from India,
and that was many years ago. One is also an MBA and CPA and runs
his family's extensive business interests in the 'States, and the
other is one of the top immigration lawyers in California.

I suppose if they are educated here... sure. But growing up in India,
Russia, Korea, and learning Indian, Russian, or Korean law won't do you
any good in the USA. The problem with engineering and IT is that the
laws of physics, and the principles of good software design and
construction, are universal. What works in India, Russia, and Korea
works here, and vice-versa.

It's easy to make such generalities.

The generality that holds is: If you are an employee, you need a union.
I think exceptions are pretty rare. Again, the number of people, 30
million, in poverty-level wage jobs (= $8.25 / hr) pretty much says
that this is right. All those people would likely do much better with a
union.

I'm a government engineer. I work for the Navy. Don't need a union,
right? Wrong! In the 1980's, the OPM illegally capped the across the
board raises of engineers on the advanced engineering pay scale. Who
should step up to the plate but the Treasury Employee's Union, and sued
the socks off the government for 2 decades. Finally won the case last
year. Last week I got a check as partial payment for compensation for
that misdeed - $1090.95. Unions don't have to strike to get results,
even if the results come later. Maybe the OPM will realize eventually
that even tho they're the government, they're not omnipotent, and have
to play by the rules, like everyone else. Anyway, I'm better off
because of a union.

Without a resurgence of union power, I think this country is headed for
a third-world model society, where there are the very rich, and the
very poor, and nobody in between. The people slinging code and
designing/building bridges won't be on the "very rich" side, either.
They'll be the ones that are willing to work for $8.00 / hr,
side-by-side with the Indians, Mexicans, Russians, etc. that will be
quite happy with that amount. Its a matter of how far in the future
that is... I guess about 50 years. What's your guess?

Dave Head


Actually, you know India is a common law country, so Indian law would be
very similar to US law, and Indian lawyers all speak English too. Being
licenced to practice is quite another thing altogether, but I could see
paying someone in Delhi to draw up a contract, etc. Of course the case law
would be different, but they can access Lexis/Nexis and WestLaw from there
too, so legal research is no problem.


Really depressing idea there, Alun. Maybe the pizza delivery guy _is_ the only
one that is safe...

Dave Head

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 04:21:15 GMT, Mike Coslo wrote:

Alun wrote:
Dave Head wrote in
:


On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:36:08 GMT, Mike Coslo
wrote:


And what a short-lived phenom that was! Now at the university
level at
least, the Techies and Engineers to a large extent are not from the US,
while our kids are busy getting MBA's and becoming lawyers!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Ya' go where the money is! Engineering is great, but the law, and
management is greater if you're talking from a money angle.

Engineers are workers. They should probably have a division in the
UAW, 'cuz sure as you're born, if you're a worker (employee), you're
going to get abused.

Those doing the abusing are the guys with the MBAs.

There are no longer enough jobs to be had to simply leave if you get
abused, you mostly have to take it. If you do leave, chances are
you'll just get abused by different people.

Lawyers hang out a shingle and charge what the traffic will bear. They
don't have someone else setting their pay rates, nor screwing around
with their health insurance, making them sign away their rights to
anything they might be able to think up and patent, etc.

Look at what's happened to programmers. Their livelihood has been
destroyed both by importation of cheap labor (H1B visas) and export of
the work entirely to places like India, Russia, etc. If you move the
needle on the idiot meter at all, you may just get into programming
school. Then you can figure significantly in the unemplyoment
statistics, or the "working poor" statistics.

You mostly can't export what an MBA does, nor can cheap foreign labor
be imported to do it. Ditto for the law practicioners.

So, no need to wonder why the kids aren't falling all over themselves
to get in line to be abused.

I think the kids today are smarter than we were...

Dave Head



Bingo!

So let me get this right..... the secret to happiness is to become an
MBA or a lawyer, even if you would rather be a technophile?

Can you think of another job you might like to do as well as tech, but the pay
sucks? I can. I could maybe have been a photographer. But unless you're
absolutely exceptional (I don't have _talent_... my pictures would have to be
good via training & practice, and would then still not rival the truely greats)
you're likely to starve a lot. So, I didn't get into photography for a living.
Its a hobby.

I've had a screwed up outlook all these years!!!!

I dunno - if you really think about it, was there maybe a point you passed up
something equally or nearly as interesting as tech because the pay sucked?

One could do something lucrative for a living, and reserve tech to be a hobby,
like ham radio.

Dave Head

- Mike KB3EIA -

On 29 Dec 2003 04:56:55 GMT, (N2EY) wrote:

In article , Dave Head
writes:

It has to do
with the waning of union power, I think, and the mistake that "tech" people
including engineers make that they don't need a union. If you're an
employee,
you need a union. Period. But the IT bunch won't join one, and look what
happened to them.

Dave,

I partly agree with you. A lot of the problem is waning union power.

But that doesn't mean everyone needs to be unionized. The mere existence of
strong unions benefits nonunion workers, too, because often employers with
nonunion shops will treat their workers better in order to stave off
unionization.

Yes, there is that good effect.

But as the percentage of labor that is unionized decreases, that effect
diminishes also.

We're going to be a 3rd world country if workers don't wake up. Very rich.
Very poor. Nobody else.

Dave Head

73 de Jim, N2EY

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 01:14:22 GMT, Dave Head wrote:

The problem with engineering and IT is that the laws of physics, and the
principles of good software design and construction, are universal. What works
in India, Russia, and Korea works here, and vice-versa.

Tell that to my wife who spent several years correcting and re-doing
the engineering designs of Russian-educated emigre engineers in the
US who across the board act as if electrical codes and Ohm's Law
are mere suggestions. She's now on the staff of the world's largest
environmental engineering consultant, and there's no union or need
for one. She would never have joined them if there was, and if one
comes in, she's gone.

I'm a government engineer. I work for the Navy. Don't need a union, right?

I had 30 years as an engineer and law enforcement manager with The Uncle -
wannna' trade horror stories? Especially those where "the union"
stood by and did nothing?

Wrong! In the 1980's, the OPM illegally capped the across the board raises of
engineers on the advanced engineering pay scale. Who should step up to the
plate but the Treasury Employee's Union, and sued the socks off the government
for 2 decades. Finally won the case last year. Last week I got a check as
partial payment for compensation for that misdeed - $1090.95.

My folks were represented by the NTEU and in fact a good friend was
the "field VP" of the local. He finally saw the light as to what
"the union" would do or not do and resigned. He's now retired, as
am I.

Navy engineer, huh? Remember the "demonstration project" at the
Naval Ocean Systems Center (San Diego) where all statutory
protections of employees were suspended and all pay raises capped?
Where was the union on that one? A close buddy was denied the step
raise that he would otherwise been entitled to by regulation. He
retired after 33 years as a specialized acoustic engineer with the
Navy. Guess who was the loser (Answer: not him...)

The union couldn't or wouldn't do a damn thing when the chairman of
the FCC decided to RIF several hundred engineers, technicians, and
non-technical enforcement agents because he didn't understand the
need for field enforcement. Two of the folks working for me,
excellent performers, got caught up in that mess, and they didn't
deserve it.

Ham radio, as well as all other radio services, are suffering the
results of that ill-informed decision almost 10 years later.

Enough of this ..this is not the place to argue this point.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

Retired and loving every minute of it....
Work was getting in the way of my hobbies

"Mike Coslo" wrote


So let me get this right..... the secret to happiness is to become an
MBA or a lawyer, even if you would rather be a technophile?


I don't think the "secret to happiness" has anything to do with how you earn
your living.

73, de Hans, K0HB
--
For my "secrets to happiness", see http://tinyurl.com/22v9k lower left
corner of that page.