In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

Between broadcasting and amatuer radio is the question of scheduling
and predictability. All broadcasters publish advance schedules, with
content warnings. So you can know what you're likely to see and hear
*before* tuning in to Howard Stern or the Victoria's Secret Fashion
Special. Not the case in amateur radio.

Jim:

Precisely. On amateur radio, one never knows when one will encounter
something which may make someone think twice about our hobby being
a wholesome and proper activity for a young person. When that happens,
whether or not what was said was "legal" within the letter of the law, the
potential exists for the effect to bring the ARS "...one step closer to
extinction."

73 de Larry, K3LT

Larry Roll K3LT wrote:

Precisely. On amateur radio, one never knows when one will encounter
something which may make someone think twice about our hobby being
a wholesome and proper activity for a young person. When that happens,
whether or not what was said was "legal" within the letter of the law, the
potential exists for the effect to bring the ARS "...one step closer to
extinction."

73 de Larry, K3LT

Larry, our society has pretty much come to the point that people don't
care what others think of them any more. Foul, vulgar language is used
so much now that it is spoken in homes as if it were accepted language
and the kids pick up on it. I have heard five year olds use words that I
would never dared to speak in front of an adult when I was a youngster.
I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by a teacher at school no
less, would like to see one try that now), for saying much less.

I grew up in a farming community and when around the men, sure a few
cuss words would fly occasionally, especially when the wrench slipped
and a busted knuckle was the result, or over at the local shop where the
farmers gathered as their trucks and tractors were being serviced, a
hell or damn was pretty common, but never in a public place where women
and children were around. There was respect for others then. It isn't
uncommon for me to step into an elevator with my wife and hear others
using very vulgar language with no regards to who is listening and may
be offended by such language. The sad part is, they think it is just
accepted that everyone has lowered themselves to such a common level.

Ever set at the mall and just watch the people pass by? Look at the
sloppy dress, some look like they stepped out of a cartoon. Few have
pride in themselves anymore. And if you really want to see some
sloppyness, go to a ham fest. It is a sad commentary on our society today.

"JJ" wrote:

(snip) I have heard five year olds use words that
I would never dared to speak in front of an adult
when I was a youngster. (snip)


I've heard five year olds use words that I, as an adult, would not say in
front of other adults today. I'm certainly not a prude, but I just don't see
how vulgar language improves communications or one's impression of another.


I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by
a teacher at school no less, would like to see
one try that now), for saying much less.


My mother preferred dishwashing liquid (claimed it was safer than some
hand or body soaps). Once was enough for me, but my brother went on a foul
language spree one summer and "got the treatment" probably five or six
times. My sister got it when she was about sixteen or seventeen.


(snip) It isn't uncommon for me to step into an
elevator with my wife and hear others using very
vulgar language with no regards to who is
listening and may be offended by such language.
(snip)


There was a guy and his wife (girlfriend or whatever) in line behind us at
Office Max the other day. I've never heard so much foul language in such a
short amount of time (seemed like every second or third word out of his
mouth). And I'm talking nasty stuff - women's body parts, his wife's body
parts, body parts in general, negative words for men and women, and so on. I
finally asked him to keep his voice down. When that didn't work, I asked him
not to use such language. When I finally got the register, he started it
again. In anger (and since there was nobody else in line), I had the casher
go with me to search for printer ink behind another counter and made sure we
had a nice little conversation. We even talked about his language. When he
finally went to another line, we returned to the register to complete my
purchase. Less than ten seconds later, the guy rushed towards the register
to get behind us again. However, the casher saw him coming and put the
register closed sign up before he got there. As he walked away, and I was
picking up my bag to leave, she smiled real big and told us to have a nice
day. This was one of the few times I truly believed a casher meant those
words when said.


And if you really want to see some sloppyness,
go to a ham fest. (snip)


I can accept a certain level of sloppyness at a ham fest or other casual
event (as opposed to the mall, restaurant, work, or other such places). Or
perhaps I should say that I dress more sloppily at a ham fest than I would
at work or so forth. I just don't really see an overwhelming reason to dress
up for a ham fest.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...
"JJ" wrote:

(snip) I have heard five year olds use words that
I would never dared to speak in front of an adult
when I was a youngster. (snip)

I've heard five year olds use words that I, as an adult, would not say
in
front of other adults today. I'm certainly not a prude, but I just don't
see
how vulgar language improves communications or one's impression of
another.

I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by
a teacher at school no less, would like to see
one try that now), for saying much less.

My mother preferred dishwashing liquid (claimed it was safer than some
hand or body soaps). Once was enough for me, but my brother went on a foul
language spree one summer and "got the treatment" probably five or six
times. My sister got it when she was about sixteen or seventeen.

(snip) It isn't uncommon for me to step into an
elevator with my wife and hear others using very
vulgar language with no regards to who is
listening and may be offended by such language.
(snip)

There was a guy and his wife (girlfriend or whatever) in line behind us
at
Office Max the other day. I've never heard so much foul language in such a
short amount of time (seemed like every second or third word out of his
mouth). And I'm talking nasty stuff - women's body parts, his wife's body
parts, body parts in general, negative words for men and women, and so on.
I
finally asked him to keep his voice down. When that didn't work, I asked
him
not to use such language. When I finally got the register, he started it
again. In anger (and since there was nobody else in line), I had the
casher
go with me to search for printer ink behind another counter and made sure
we
had a nice little conversation. We even talked about his language. When he
finally went to another line, we returned to the register to complete my
purchase. Less than ten seconds later, the guy rushed towards the register
to get behind us again. However, the casher saw him coming and put the
register closed sign up before he got there. As he walked away, and I was
picking up my bag to leave, she smiled real big and told us to have a nice
day. This was one of the few times I truly believed a casher meant those
words when said.


And if you really want to see some sloppyness,
go to a ham fest. (snip)


I can accept a certain level of sloppyness at a ham fest or other casual
event (as opposed to the mall, restaurant, work, or other such places). Or
perhaps I should say that I dress more sloppily at a ham fest than I would
at work or so forth. I just don't really see an overwhelming reason to
dress
up for a ham fest.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/


I would have asked to visit with the Shift Manager and would have explained
the situation to him/her and asked what the store intended to do about it.
*If* the conversation had been loud enough for the clerk to make a decision
on your complaint, then it was loud enough for her to witness to the Shift
Manager. What would I expect as a consumer? I would expect the store to
ask the people to leave if they persist in offensive behavior in public.
There are laws against it. We probably have to take some form of personal
responsibility--and we may be too stupid or lazy to do so, I don't know--for
those laws to work but, failing that, my action would have been to place my
products down on the counter and walk out of the store.

*That* is what Jim means by shopping with our wallets. On a small, teeny,
tiny scale, I just had a meeting with that company's BoD. And, more people
need to start having that meeting with the BoD. You call it "local" or
whatever. But that BoD makes investment decisions for its shareholders.
And, whether I am a shareholder or not, if me, and you, and him, and her,
and them, and those people over there, and all of us combined start
affecting the bottom dollar of a company's stock price--then we've also have
a very effective meeting with the BoD.

And, the greatest thing is, you could choose to leave without ever saying a
word to anyone--either way you choose to act; *as long as you leave without
purchase* has the same affect.

Kim W5TIT

Dwight Stewart wrote:


And if you really want to see some sloppyness,
go to a ham fest. (snip)



I can accept a certain level of sloppyness at a ham fest or other casual
event (as opposed to the mall, restaurant, work, or other such places). Or
perhaps I should say that I dress more sloppily at a ham fest than I would
at work or so forth. I just don't really see an overwhelming reason to dress
up for a ham fest.


Casual is OK, but there is a differenc between casual and sloppy.
Clothes that have obviously been worn for several days and smelly are
sloppy. I have seen a lot of that at ham fest. Seems that to some hams,
the acquiring of a license means they now only have to take a bath once
a month or less.

My guess is that some moron years ago decided that these damned hamfest MUST
occur at like 8am and that the guys going to them figured, " to hell with a
shower! I will be back in a while"

I am sorry if this offends, but I shower twice a day, use
deodorant/antiperspirant and wear clean, laundered clothing even if it is a
t-shirt and shorts or jeans. Not saying having to dress in the sunday best
but.......

I have seen better dressed homeless people in some cases!


--
Ryan KC8PMX

"Why is it one careless match can start a forest fire, but
it takes a whole box to start a barbecue?"

And if you really want to see some sloppyness,
go to a ham fest. (snip)


I can accept a certain level of sloppyness at a ham fest or other casual
event (as opposed to the mall, restaurant, work, or other such places). Or
perhaps I should say that I dress more sloppily at a ham fest than I would
at work or so forth. I just don't really see an overwhelming reason to
dress
up for a ham fest.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"JJ" wrote in message
...
Larry Roll K3LT wrote:

Precisely. On amateur radio, one never knows when one will encounter
something which may make someone think twice about our hobby being
a wholesome and proper activity for a young person. When that happens,
whether or not what was said was "legal" within the letter of the law,
the
potential exists for the effect to bring the ARS "...one step closer to
extinction."

73 de Larry, K3LT

Larry, our society has pretty much come to the point that people don't
care what others think of them any more.


I think we all care, JJ, it's just that we've lost our ability to "tolerate"
because it's become a very jealous world.


Foul, vulgar language is used
so much now that it is spoken in homes as if it were accepted language
and the kids pick up on it. I have heard five year olds use words that I
would never dared to speak in front of an adult when I was a youngster.
I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by a teacher at school no
less, would like to see one try that now), for saying much less.

I grew up in a farming community and when around the men, sure a few
cuss words would fly occasionally, especially when the wrench slipped
and a busted knuckle was the result, or over at the local shop where the
farmers gathered as their trucks and tractors were being serviced, a
hell or damn was pretty common, but never in a public place where women
and children were around.


JJ, leaving the children aside because I agree with you on that one...but,
let me assure that in the dairy land where I grew up--we women on the farms
were quite capable of being just as foul-mouthed as any man. Nope, we
didn't do it in front of the men--Heaven forbid they realize we weren't the
demure, dainty pieces they thought we were, but we did it.

And, in my opinion, words don't hurt anyone. It's actions that hurt. I
don't care to hear a little kid running around cursing; I don't even care to
hear it from a man or me. But I also believe that it is our *concept* of it
being so terrible that makes it so. I really mean that. It is the
expression being felt or communicated through a word that is the "bad"
thing. If I say, "I HATE YOU" in the same tone of voice as "I LOVE YOU" you
are going to perceive that you are getting a double message the you are
going to at least wonder if there is some negative emotion being expressed
as I am saying "I LOVE YOU." George Carlin's skit on words had precisely
that lesson in it. It isn't the word--it's the emotion behind it.


There was respect for others then. It isn't
uncommon for me to step into an elevator with my wife and hear others
using very vulgar language with no regards to who is listening and may
be offended by such language. The sad part is, they think it is just
accepted that everyone has lowered themselves to such a common level.


I agree. But, I hope you'll understand that there's a fine line between
having respect for others, and others then being able to "dictate" how I
should behave. For instance, I totally respect anyone's opinion that
cursing in public is offensive to them. So, I generally don't curse in
public. Out loud anyway But, when I am in my house, or in my "corner of
the world with friends of like mind," then I'm going to curse away if I'm so
inclined. Would you dictate that I am rolled up into your opinion with the
others you mention above--or am I being disrespectful to you for cursing at
any time?


Ever set at the mall and just watch the people pass by? Look at the
sloppy dress, some look like they stepped out of a cartoon. Few have
pride in themselves anymore. And if you really want to see some
sloppyness, go to a ham fest. It is a sad commentary on our society today.


Oh, now see. There's where you and I would definitely disagree. I really
don't care how someone is dressed--although I've found myself at times
having to get over an initial reaction, if you know what I mean. If I walk
into a business office and see someone with a t-shirt and jeans on--I am
initially taken off guard. But, I quickly get *myself* over that and
continue with whatever I walked in for. I hate, absolutely hate that I work
in a corporate environment with dark suits around me all day...gosh I hate
that. In other words, I've seen people in very sloppy dress with wonderful
mannerisms and respect for others...and I've seen some people in very fancy
and "respectful" garb that are completely without feelings for anything or
anyone around them.

By the way...you wouldn't be describing mostly youth, above, would you?

Kim W5TIT

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:51:31 -0600, Kim W5TIT wrote:

Ever set at the mall and just watch the people pass by? Look at the
sloppy dress, some look like they stepped out of a cartoon. Few have
pride in themselves anymore. And if you really want to see some
sloppyness, go to a ham fest. It is a sad commentary on our society today.

By the way...you wouldn't be describing mostly youth, above, would you?

In both suburban areas that I have lived in the last 35+ years, in
the sumnmer one could sit and see "dress" that makes the Victoria's
Secret showroom look demure by comparison.

Fortunately my daughter never bought into that sort of conduct
although she could have been a "spectacle" had she done so. She
has too much respect for herself for that.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

Larry, our society has pretty much come to the point that people don't
care what others think of them any more. Foul, vulgar language is used
so much now that it is spoken in homes as if it were accepted language
and the kids pick up on it. I have heard five year olds use words that I
would never dared to speak in front of an adult when I was a youngster.
I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by a teacher at school no
less, would like to see one try that now), for saying much less.

I grew up in a farming community and when around the men, sure a few
cuss words would fly occasionally, especially when the wrench slipped
and a busted knuckle was the result, or over at the local shop where the
farmers gathered as their trucks and tractors were being serviced, a
hell or damn was pretty common, but never in a public place where women
and children were around. There was respect for others then. It isn't
uncommon for me to step into an elevator with my wife and hear others
using very vulgar language with no regards to who is listening and may
be offended by such language. The sad part is, they think it is just
accepted that everyone has lowered themselves to such a common level.

Ever set at the mall and just watch the people pass by? Look at the
sloppy dress, some look like they stepped out of a cartoon. Few have
pride in themselves anymore. And if you really want to see some
sloppyness, go to a ham fest. It is a sad commentary on our society today.


Zactly ...Our society has become the "bum society". It is now the vogue to
have baby showers in the school for the 15 yr old girl instead of her
whispered trip to her aunt Mary's in Ohio that resulted in Aunt Mary raising
a child the proper way. We proclaim liberty and freedom in the old USA
but fail miserably to protect the unborn to the tune of millions a year.
Then the people wonder where the respect for human life has gone. Our TV
has become a cess pool instead of a resource. Did you ever see the "new"
cartoons? Vulgarity begins to be accepted as norm at a young age let alone
the Springer type shows out there. Common manners are gone. Who would have
ever eaten at home or a restaurant with a baseball cap on? Language ....
the liberal use of Sponge Bob's "sentence enhancers" is every where and
accepted as norm. It is of no surprise that ham radio manifests the same in
on air activities and "cute" calls. I however can escape to a venue where
I do not find this happening ...call it what you may ...I call it CW.

OOPs got me again ...Pontification filter is on

God Bless 73 KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon Pa

In article , JJ
writes:


Larry Roll K3LT wrote:

Precisely. On amateur radio, one never knows when one will encounter
something which may make someone think twice about our hobby being
a wholesome and proper activity for a young person. When that happens,
whether or not what was said was "legal" within the letter of the law, the
potential exists for the effect to bring the ARS "...one step closer to
extinction."

73 de Larry, K3LT

Larry, our society has pretty much come to the point that people don't
care what others think of them any more.

JJ:

sigh Yes, isn't that the truth?

Foul, vulgar language is used
so much now that it is spoken in homes as if it were accepted language
and the kids pick up on it.

Every time I run into one of those potty-mouthed kids, I feel like feeding them
the business end of a baseball bat -- after it had been accelerated to home-run
hitting velocity!

I have heard five year olds use words that I
would never dared to speak in front of an adult when I was a youngster.

I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by a teacher at school no
less, would like to see one try that now), for saying much less.

I remember one time I called one of my brothers a *******. I was too young
to even know what the word meant. My father overheard me -- he immediately
made me go to my room, say an Act of Contrition, and immediately go to
bed for the rest of the evening. Before slamming the door of my bedroom,
he asked if I knew what a "*******" was, and I said no. Now I do. To this
very day I wish I'd looked in the dictionary before using that word!

I grew up in a farming community and when around the men, sure a few
cuss words would fly occasionally, especially when the wrench slipped
and a busted knuckle was the result, or over at the local shop where the
farmers gathered as their trucks and tractors were being serviced, a
hell or damn was pretty common, but never in a public place where women
and children were around.

As a youth in my mid-teens, I used to hang around one of the local gas
stations myself, so I can certainly identify with the colorful language.
However, whenever a female customer came in, everyone was strictly
on their best behaviour. One day this past summer, I was at a local
gas/convenience store, and a lady walked in and said to the young girl
behind the counter, "How come that ____ing pump won't ____ing turn
on for me?" I immediately replied, "because it's probably turned off by
your foul language!" You can imagine how she responded, but it's not
printable here, even with a lot of blank spaces.

There was respect for others then. It isn't
uncommon for me to step into an elevator with my wife and hear others
using very vulgar language with no regards to who is listening and may
be offended by such language. The sad part is, they think it is just
accepted that everyone has lowered themselves to such a common level.

Indeed. I myself, partly due to my having been exposed to the common
element during my military service, used to occasionally allow my language
to ripen a bit. I am now extremely cautious about that, and try to present
myself in a very polite, considerate manner at all times.

Ever set at the mall and just watch the people pass by? Look at the
sloppy dress, some look like they stepped out of a cartoon. Few have
pride in themselves anymore. And if you really want to see some
sloppyness, go to a ham fest. It is a sad commentary on our society today.

Yes. I myself like to dress comfortably; my off-duty "uniform" consists
almost exclusively of kakhis and a pullover shirt, and New Balance
trainers. But my clothes are always clean and in good order -- I wouldn't
want to be caught dead dressed in the sloppy, baggy, totally disorganized
manner young people seem to prefer these days. I wonder who they
think they're impressing. Anyone dressed like that coming to me for a job
is only going to get my standard warning about the door.

73 de Larry, K3LT