Subject: Why I Like The ARRL
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 12/20/03 2:50 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

ANYONE can do, Mike. That's the Word from the newsgroupies in
here. Little kids can do it. No aptitude needed...just the guts and
determination and a terrible Will To Win, like it was the Most
Important Thing In Your Life!

If you're 10 years old and it's a school project you need a good grade
for, it just may be the most important thing in your life!

But then how would YOU know about anyhting important in Amateur Radio,
Lennie...?!?!? You're STILL not a licensee.

Just a liar.

No one can possibly be interested in radio without being morse code
tested. The gods of radio have spoken! It's divine LAW!

You have yet to provide the quote form ANYone who has said anything like
this, Lennie...You keep reciting this as "fact", yet you offer no proof.

More lies from someone who finds it easier to lie than to "do it".

Steve, K4YZ

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Should Tech plus people be given a General (or whatever replaces it)
license?

If they passed their Tech written before March 21, 1987, they can get a General
with no additional testing. The rules have provided for this testless upgrade
since restructuring.

Even if they let their old license expire, they can get credit for current
Element 1 *and* Element 3.

After all, they passed the Element one test, the old barrier to
HF...... BUT....

"barrier"??

Since there is no barrier to HF from the code test, and Tech pluses
*might* get HF privileges, should ALL tech's get HF privileges since
they took the same test?

Sure - and that has been proposed by several of the petitions before FCC,
including NCI's and NCVEC's.

The surreal part of it is that those privileges consist of Morse privileges on
three bands plus CW and SSB privileges on one band.

After all the only difference is the Tech plus'
took Element one, which is no longer, which means it isn't a
requirement, so they shouldn't have HF privileges on a defunct test
requirement............... SO it only follows.......

HF privileges would in the future be granted by taking the equivalent
of a Technician test?

Yup, simple indeed.

Depends entirely on the wording of the changes if Element 1 is dropped. Some
folks want to take the incremental approach - just drop Element 1 and see what
happens.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article om, "Dee D.
Flint" writes:

Yet I believe Novice DOES have permanent credit towards the 5wpm.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK


The Novice license does indeed bestow lifetime credit but that is not the
same situation as a Tech who subsequent to the April 2000 passed element 1.
In the latter case, the credit is only good for 365 for the purposes of
upgrading as stated.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

You're both right, but there are even odder twists in Part 97.

Any expired license still in the grace period bestows the obvious element
credits.

A Novice license expired beyond the grace period bestows Element 1

A Technician license expired beyond the grace period *and* issued before Feb
14, 1991 bestows Element 1 (but not Element 2!)

A Technician license expired beyond the grace period *and* issued before Mar
21, 1987 bestows Elements 1 and 3 (but not Element 2!)

Any commercial radiotelegraph license (issued by FCC, of course) current or
expired less than 5 years bestows Element 1

No other credit for expired licenses.

Think of all the twists!

Suppose someone had a Tech Plus issued after Feb 14, 1991 but more than 12
years prior to today, and they did not renew it, and they bypassed the Novice
back then. No credit. But if they'd gotten that same license before Feb 14,
1991, they'd have credit for Element 1. And if they'd gotten that same license
before Mar 21, 1987, they'd have credit for Elements 1 and 3.

Or suppose someone got a Novice or Tech way back in 1951 (52 years ago) and
never did anyting with it. The old license document would be good for Element 1
in both cases and also Element 3 in the Technician case. But someone who
bypassed those licenses and went straight for General or above gets *no*
credits at all.

Lots of other scenarios. A 1951 Tech whose let his/her license expire in 1956
needs only the old license document and Element 2 to get a General, but someone
who went straight to Extra 12 years and 1 day ago and did not renew gets no
credit at all.

It seems to me it would be a lot simpler to have the rules say that *any* class
of code tested license or equivalent CSCE would grant Element 1 credit, but
they don't. The written test situation is even odder, but it could be argued
that the old writtens did not include RF exposure questions and the regs have
changed quite a bit.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article om, "Dee D.
Flint" writes:

Yet I believe Novice DOES have permanent credit towards the 5wpm.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK


The Novice license does indeed bestow lifetime credit but that is not the
same situation as a Tech who subsequent to the April 2000 passed element
1.
In the latter case, the credit is only good for 365 for the purposes of
upgrading as stated.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

You're both right, but there are even odder twists in Part 97.

Any expired license still in the grace period bestows the obvious element
credits.

A Novice license expired beyond the grace period bestows Element 1

A Technician license expired beyond the grace period *and* issued before
Feb
14, 1991 bestows Element 1 (but not Element 2!)

A Technician license expired beyond the grace period *and* issued before
Mar
21, 1987 bestows Elements 1 and 3 (but not Element 2!)

Any commercial radiotelegraph license (issued by FCC, of course) current
or
expired less than 5 years bestows Element 1

No other credit for expired licenses.

Think of all the twists!

Suppose someone had a Tech Plus issued after Feb 14, 1991 but more than 12
years prior to today, and they did not renew it, and they bypassed the
Novice
back then. No credit. But if they'd gotten that same license before Feb
14,
1991, they'd have credit for Element 1. And if they'd gotten that same
license
before Mar 21, 1987, they'd have credit for Elements 1 and 3.

Or suppose someone got a Novice or Tech way back in 1951 (52 years ago)
and
never did anyting with it. The old license document would be good for
Element 1
in both cases and also Element 3 in the Technician case. But someone who
bypassed those licenses and went straight for General or above gets *no*
credits at all.

Lots of other scenarios. A 1951 Tech whose let his/her license expire in
1956
needs only the old license document and Element 2 to get a General, but
someone
who went straight to Extra 12 years and 1 day ago and did not renew gets
no
credit at all.

It seems to me it would be a lot simpler to have the rules say that *any*
class
of code tested license or equivalent CSCE would grant Element 1 credit,
but
they don't. The written test situation is even odder, but it could be
argued
that the old writtens did not include RF exposure questions and the regs
have
changed quite a bit.

73 de Jim, N2EY

I was trying to avoid all the permutations of the current rules and just
address the statements as presented. It does get quite complex as to what
grants which credits.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

N2EY wrote:

In article om, "Dee D.
Flint" writes:


Yet I believe Novice DOES have permanent credit towards the 5wpm.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK


The Novice license does indeed bestow lifetime credit but that is not the
same situation as a Tech who subsequent to the April 2000 passed element 1.
In the latter case, the credit is only good for 365 for the purposes of
upgrading as stated.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


You're both right, but there are even odder twists in Part 97.

Any expired license still in the grace period bestows the obvious element
credits.

A Novice license expired beyond the grace period bestows Element 1

A Technician license expired beyond the grace period *and* issued before Feb
14, 1991 bestows Element 1 (but not Element 2!)

A Technician license expired beyond the grace period *and* issued before Mar
21, 1987 bestows Elements 1 and 3 (but not Element 2!)

Any commercial radiotelegraph license (issued by FCC, of course) current or
expired less than 5 years bestows Element 1

No other credit for expired licenses.

Think of all the twists!

Suppose someone had a Tech Plus issued after Feb 14, 1991 but more than 12
years prior to today, and they did not renew it, and they bypassed the Novice
back then. No credit. But if they'd gotten that same license before Feb 14,
1991, they'd have credit for Element 1. And if they'd gotten that same license
before Mar 21, 1987, they'd have credit for Elements 1 and 3.

Or suppose someone got a Novice or Tech way back in 1951 (52 years ago) and
never did anyting with it. The old license document would be good for Element 1
in both cases and also Element 3 in the Technician case. But someone who
bypassed those licenses and went straight for General or above gets *no*
credits at all.

Lots of other scenarios. A 1951 Tech whose let his/her license expire in 1956
needs only the old license document and Element 2 to get a General, but someone
who went straight to Extra 12 years and 1 day ago and did not renew gets no
credit at all.

It seems to me it would be a lot simpler to have the rules say that *any* class
of code tested license or equivalent CSCE would grant Element 1 credit, but
they don't. The written test situation is even odder, but it could be argued
that the old writtens did not include RF exposure questions and the regs have
changed quite a bit.

I'll bet you have a headache now, Jim! Its kind of like what I was
saying about actions and their consequences. Any time you change a rule
there are plenty of consequenses - like removing Element one without any
other changes. (which I think is impossible anyway, BTW)

- Mike KB3EIA -

It seems to me it would be a lot simpler to have the rules say that
*any* class
of code tested license or equivalent CSCE would grant Element 1
credit, but
they don't. The written test situation is even odder, but it could be
argued
that the old writtens did not include RF exposure questions and the
regs have
changed quite a bit.


I'll bet you have a headache now, Jim! Its kind of like what I was
saying about actions and their consequences. Any time you change a
rule there are plenty of consequenses - like removing Element one
without any other changes. (which I think is impossible anyway, BTW)

Some brearucrat must have wrote those rules. And didn't understand that
a 13wpm or
20wpm code test would imply the ability to do 5wpm, and thus deserve
credit for element 1.
Said brearucrat was probably told to get the ham rules done this
afternoon, and get on
the new cell phone or whatever rules tommrow.

In article om, "Dee D.
Flint" writes:

I was trying to avoid all the permutations of the current rules and just
address the statements as presented.

Of course, Dee. No criticism intended.

It does get quite complex as to what
grants which credits.

Agreed!

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

I'll bet you have a headache now, Jim!

Not at all, Mike. I'm used to the rules having all sorts of twists like that.
You should have seen what the FCC rules for the ARS looked like in the early
'70s! Particularly to put a repeater on the air.

Didja know that there was a considerable period of time (started in the early
1950s) when, if a General or Advanced class ham could document heving held an
amateur license before WW1 (USA entered WW1 in May 1917) the FCC would give you
an Extra with no tests at all?

Its kind of like what I was
saying about actions and their consequences. Any time you change a rule
there are plenty of consequenses - like removing Element one without any
other changes. (which I think is impossible anyway, BTW)

Sure. It's called "The Law of Unexpected Results". Change something, and a
other things will change, too.

For example, look at traffic light timing. It used to be the standard that when
the yellow interval ended in one direction, the green for conflicting traffic
would display right away. Traffic engineers noticed that sometimes accidents
would result from drivers "crowding the yellow" too closely. ("It was orange,
Officer!")

So they decided that there should be a 3 second interval of "all red" to give
time for the intersection to clear.

But after a while they noted people entering intersections *against the red*
(when the yellow interval had just ended) because they knew they had 3 seconds.
Result: More accidents.

But it *is* possible for the FCC to just drop Element 1. K2UNK and I discussed
this some time back right here on rrap and outlined the paragraphs in Part 97
that needed changing or deletion for that to happen. There weren't many!

FCC could make it even simpler, though. They could add the following to the
rules:

"Pending further review and rules changes, Element 1 credit is given to any
applicant for an amateur radio license of any class".

or

"Pending further review and rules changes, the requirement for Element 1 is
waived for an amateur radio license of any class".

One sentence, no other changes until FCC gets the proverbial round tuit.

And if FCC were 100% convinced that code testing serves no purpose, it would
have been dropped by now. Instead, it looks more and more like we're headed for
another NPRM cycle.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article om, "Dee D.
Flint" writes:

I was trying to avoid all the permutations of the current rules and just
address the statements as presented.

Of course, Dee. No criticism intended.

It does get quite complex as to what
grants which credits.

Agreed!

73 de Jim, N2EY

Don't worry, I did not take it as criticism. However, it reminds me that I
need to get an updated rule book as they keep changing and mine is about one
edition out of date. Of course I can always look things up on the internet
but I prefer to have a book.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

In article om, "Dee D.
Flint" writes:

However, it reminds me that I
need to get an updated rule book as they keep changing and mine is about one
edition out of date. Of course I can always look things up on the internet
but I prefer to have a book.

You can also download Part 97 from the ARRL website. Available in several
formats including pdf IIRC.

73 de Jim, N2EY