N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes:


The present system is not "broken" It doesn't need fixed. It is what it


is, and is just one of those things that grew up over the years.


I think it needs a bit of tweaking, but not a fullscale makeover as some seem
to think.

Agreed! Most proposals I have seen have been either too radical or too
complicated.


When
Morse code was ascendant, there was a need for multiple license classes,
since Morse is one of those skills that takes time to hone, and it made
sense then to have a rank beginner level, and work up from there.


I'm not sure what you mean by "Morse code was ascendant" - can you explain a
bit more?

At one time, if you were going to be a Ham, you were almost certain to
be using Morse CW as a major part of your Operating activities. There
was a time when the two major alternatives were AM or CW.


I would say that *any* knowledge or skill requires time to develop, whether
it's theory knowledge,
practical radio knowhow or Morse skills. Thus, there will still be a need for
several license classes.
I think there should be more levels than three, but FCC's action in 1999 makes
it clear that's
probably a lost cause. So three classes it is:

One that's easy to get so that people can get started without having to learn
everything in one go
One that gives full privileges and requires some serious knowledge
One intermediate step so that it's not a huge jump.

This is the system we have however, and we tinker with it at our own
peril. We do not want to remove privileges, nor do we want to increase
privileges without any testing. The reduction issue seems to have been
proven by the Incentive licensing problem in the 60's, and giving away
free upgrades will only serve to anger people in the other direction.


I agree 100%! Indeed, there is still criticism of the IL plan 36 years after it
was put in place, and in many places from people who did not become hams until long
after it was in effect!

One of these days I might come to the conclusion that there are a lot
of cranky hams out there! ;^)



It is a foolish system that angers people on purpose. You don't anger
those who are your friends, you anger your enemies.


Better yet, you render your enemies ineffective. But most of all you don't
anger your
friends unnecessarily.

To have a Morse code test for entry into HF is not going to happen, and


to have a Morse code test for Amateur Extra doesn't make sense, given
that the Extra is the highest level license, and Morse code was at one
time required for the lowest level, Novice. There is a big disconnect there.


I disagree!

Given the popularity of Morse code in amateur radio, it makes no sense to not
have it be a part of the testing for a license. Imagine if there were no questions on SSB
in the tests - would that make sense?

In the testing, yes, but I think a Fail Element 1 = no license is simply
a dog that isn't going to hunt.


The Morse Code test has been portrayed as the boogieman, as if it is the source
of all of amateur radio's problems. Yet there is no proof of these claims.

It isn't the boogieman! That's just an excuse for lack of effort (the
same thing Larry accuses me of!) We've already seen that some prime
agitators for elimination of Element one are now taking the next step
and supporting a radical easing of the writtens.

Nothing is easy enough. Remember what I said about the direction of the
tide some months back? I haven't seen anything to suggest I was wrong.


I therefore propose a system that is quite like what we have now.
Technician, General, and Amateur Extra. Privileges the same.


This means all Techs have VHF/UHF only?


Yup. And it's a good idea. Gives those that might want to be on HF some
incentive, and they neither gain or lose privileges. Did everyone know
that there are Technicians out there that are perfectly happy with what
they have now?

The two orphan classes, Tech plus and Advanced, will remain where they
are, with privileges staying the same.


What about Novice?

Oops, forgot the Novices. Yeah, they would retain the privileges they
have now. I really don't know how many people this will really affect.
Probably not too many active Novices any more.


After the changeover, the new testing regimen will be:

Technician: heavy on RF safety, Light on electronics theory. Some
questions related to the VHF and UHF where the tech's will largely
operate The technician is considered a preparatory license, and will
give a good base of how to get on the air without frying yourself in the
process.


Perhaps, but what that does is to funnel newcomers into VHF/UHF rather than HF.
And since VHF/UHF gear tends to be harder to homebrew and more complex than HF
equipment, it tends to funnel newcomers to manufactured equipment. Also, since there is
relatively little use of Morse Code for casual operating on VHF/UHF, it tends to funnel newcomers
to FM voice operation.

Remember they will still have 6 meter operation available to them. But
I still like this because it is an incentive to upgrade. And with no
Element 1, what is the impedance to upgrading?


General: General test will scale back on the RF safety, and replace it
with more theory. Antenna questions and operating procedures. The never
entertaining band edge questions will get a few more questions.


Needs to have some serious HF centric stuff, though.

Good point. Consider it added.


Extra: more in depth treatment of theory. No band edge or safety
questions, at this point, if you don't know safety, you've already fried
your mind. questions demonstrating knowledge of different modes.


The only controversial part of my proposal is that there would be a 2
year wait between General and Extra. I could be persuaded to drop that
pretty easily!


I'd say the experience requirements should be included.


Yippee! Got one person on board with that one! I really do think it's a
good idea, and it doesn't unduly punish anyone.

Bands and sub bands:

At this point, the bands will remain the same. Bandplan adjustments
will be made. Novice sections will remain, and will be considered a
"practice ground" for those who want to learn Morse code. note: this may
actually be a way to kick start Morse code use.


I don't see the need for that. Better to open up some of the lower part of the
bands for newcomers to use Morse.

The natural tendency is for Morse to be at the bottom of the band, data in the
middle, and 'phone at the top. Rather than fight that trend, the newcomer
segments should reinforce it.

The Novice subbands were originally put in the middle of their bands in a
misguided effort to keep them from straying outside the band edges. Since
Novices were originally required to use crystal control, this made little sense
even in 1951.

So there you have it. Here is a plan that shouldn't p**s anyone off
that isn't *already* mad about something, and as far as I can see, it's
major disadvantage is that it isn't glamorous or exciting.

Is it the "ideal" plan?* Heck no! But it accomplishes moving past the
Morse code issue with a minimum of disruption, and has the side benefit
that we know it will work.

Comments?


I agree that massive changes and giveaways are a bad idea.

However, I think that one of the problems today is that the entry-level license
is too VHF/UHF/voice/applicane operator-centric.
The entry level license should offer a wide selection of bands and modes,
rather than what we have now where newcomers get all of VHF/UHF but no HF.

I'm still big on the idea of a person having a good reason to upgrade.
This does it, and allows a real entry level opportunity for people, yet
allows a niche for those who are happy to stay there. And there will be
plenty of people that will be happy to stay there.

Without a real reason to upgrade, I can't really support a three class
system. I don't think that there are enough different privileges to
offer between three classes, unless you make one of the privileges HF
access.

And I can't really support power limits as a incentive to upgrade. It's
a forced distinction (keeping in mind that all distinctions are
arbitrary at some level) that I do not find acceptable.

RF safety and safety around high voltages is of critical importance for
amateurs. The RF field calculations are one thing, but to me even more
important is the potential for RF burns and B+ shocks.

The Technician is exposed to these dangers at events such as Field day
or contesting with other hams - I know I was.

And while a Unlicensed person may be operating the equipment too, they
are much more likely to be afraid to touch anything but the PTT switch.
The Technician will be more likely to be careless through familiarity.

I cannot in good conscience support a testing regimen that does not
test extensively for safety at the base level. And since the newly
minted Ham would have the knowledge of High-power levels and high
voltage, to limit them to low power would be arbitrary and punitive.

So that is my rationale for a system that has three classes, HF access
for two of them, and doesn't penalize or overly promote anyone.

- Mike KB3EIA -

N2EY wrote:
In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...

However, I think that one of the problems today is that the entry-level

license

is too VHF/UHF/voice/applicane operator-centric.
The entry level license should offer a wide selection of bands and modes,
rather than what we have now where newcomers get all of VHF/UHF but no HF.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Newcomers with any gumption can have some HF if they choose to pass the
code.


Well, I dunno if I'd call it "gumption". But yes, there's nothing that
*prevents*
a raw newcomer from getting an HF ham license "right out of the box".


Tech study guide and test does include some very basic questions on
HF propagation, procedures, rules, etc. Unfortunately too many instructors
ignore the HF side of things and don't bother to give much encouragement to
go after the code so then the students end up on VHF/UHF only. My
instructor, many moons ago, really emphasized going for the "complete" Tech
license (Novice written + Tech written + code). I'm glad he did.


Me too!

But even though it *can* be done, the license structure works against it. This
isn't a new thing - way back in the bad old days, one would sometimes hear of a
new ham going straight to General rather than mucking around with Novice. But
those
folks were very rare.

If you look at the "new licenses" listings at

http://www.ah0a.org

you'll see that each month a few new hams each month bypass Tech and go for
General or even Extra "right out of the box". But they are only a few, compared
to the thousands who start with Tech.

As you noted in another post, a multistep license is needed because most people
find a stepwise approach more doable and less intimidating than a one-shot
comprehensive exam. So most folks will take the upgrades in steps. The current
system actually pushes newcomers *away* from Morse and HF use by putting those
things father away.

The new ham who goes for Tech-with-HF finds that s/he has a mountain of VHF/UHF
privileges but only a tiny bit of HF. And while there are some HF questions in
the Tech pool, the focus is primarily on VHF/UHF - which it has to be, in order
to match the privileges.

IOW, to be blunt, the current license structure tends to make HF and Morse look
harder than they are, and to nudge newbies into getting on the local repeaters
rather than HF Morse. (Which *appears* easier to most newcomer - buying an HT
and taking it "out of the box* or learning Morse, putting up an antenna,
assembling an HF station with all the needed stuff and getting on 80/40 CW?)


Do you think that most new amateurs are willing to be boxed in like
that? I mean that after one contest with the club and I was determined
to get my General license. I suppose that different people might act
differently, but the privileges of my Technician license were EXACTLY
what made me go for my General license.

Satisfaction is highly overrated! ;^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Dee D. Flint wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ...

No one commented on my proposal that I made earlier in the week. Perhaps
because it was hidden away in another thread (which I changed), or
perhaps it was stupid beyond belief.

I'll post it again in hopes of some feedback.


A few thoughts first:

There is going to be a change, of that there is no doubt. I still think
it is going to take a longer rather than shorter time. I see no reason
to change my prediction in the pool.

The present system is not "broken" It doesn't need fixed. It is what it
is, and is just one of those things that grew up over the years. When
Morse code was ascendant, there was a need for multiple license classes,
since Morse is one of those skills that takes time to hone, and it made
sense then to have a rank beginner level, and work up from there.


This is the system we have however, and we tinker with it at our own
peril. We do not want to remove privileges, nor do we want to increase
privileges without any testing. The reduction issue seems to have been
proven by the Incentive licensing problem in the 60's, and giving away
free upgrades will only serve to anger people in the other direction.

It is a foolish system that angers people on purpose. You don't anger
those who are your friends, you anger your enemies.

To have a Morse code test for entry into HF is not going to happen, and
to have a Morse code test for Amateur Extra doesn't make sense, given
that the Extra is the highest level license, and Morse code was at one
time required for the lowest level, Novice. There is a big disconnect

there.

I therefore propose a system that is quite like what we have now.
Technician, General, and Amateur Extra. Privileges the same.

The two orphan classes, Tech plus and Advanced, will remain where they
are, with privileges staying the same.

After the changeover, the new testing regimen will be:

Technician: heavy on RF safety, Light on electronics theory. Some
questions related to the VHF and UHF where the tech's will largely
operate The technician is considered a preparatory license, and will
give a good base of how to get on the air without frying yourself in the
process.

General: General test will scale back on the RF safety, and replace it
with more theory. Antenna questions and operating procedures. The never
entertaining band edge questions will get a few more questions.


Extra: more in depth treatment of theory. No band edge or safety
questions, at this point, if you don't know safety, you've already fried
your mind. questions demonstrating knowledge of different modes.


The only controversial part of my proposal is that there would be a 2
year wait between General and Extra. I could be persuaded to drop that
pretty easily!


Bands and sub bands:

At this point, the bands will remain the same. Bandplan adjustments
will be made. Novice sections will remain, and will be considered a
"practice ground" for those who want to learn Morse code. note: this may
actually be a way to kick start Morse code use.


So there you have it. Here is a plan that shouldn't p**s anyone off
that isn't *already* mad about something, and as far as I can see, it's
major disadvantage is that it isn't glamorous or exciting.

Is it the "ideal" plan?* Heck no! But it accomplishes moving past the
Morse code issue with a minimum of disruption, and has the side benefit
that we know it will work.

Comments?

- Mike KB3EIA -




If Morse code testing goes, this is a pretty reasonable approach. However
several people have proposed even simpler plans. Simply drop the element 1
for the requirements for one or more levels and beef up the writtens. Leave
all else alone. Although no one knows what the FCC will do, my opinion is
that it will be one of the simplest proposals that will be adopted rather
than any restructuring.



*My version of the ideal plan in post Morse code era, would be a one
class system, with the requirements being somewhere between General and
Extra as practiced now.



Except that this is likely to slow the growth of ham radio rather than
increase the growth. Although the old incentive licensing scheme was
mishandled and many existing amateurs lost privileges, the growth increased
markedly as potential applicants saw that they could approach the license in
a stepwise fashion. If we were to return to a single license class for the
future, as you indicated the testing ought to be stiffer than the General
and that could deter people from ever becoming involved.

that is certainly possible, Dee. Of course I doubt we'll ever see it
happen!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Dee D. Flint wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
...

However, I think that one of the problems today is that the entry-level

license

is too VHF/UHF/voice/applicane operator-centric.
The entry level license should offer a wide selection of bands and modes,
rather than what we have now where newcomers get all of VHF/UHF but no HF.

73 de Jim, N2EY


Newcomers with any gumption can have some HF if they choose to pass the
code.

Indeed!


Tech study guide and test does include some very basic questions on
HF propagation, procedures, rules, etc. Unfortunately too many instructors
ignore the HF side of things and don't bother to give much encouragement to
go after the code so then the students end up on VHF/UHF only. My
instructor, many moons ago, really emphasized going for the "complete" Tech
license (Novice written + Tech written + code). I'm glad he did.


Although there isn't a tech plus any more, if I were to teach a class, I
would leave no doubt that I expected the students to go on beyond the
Technician license, and would probably even have a little time devoted
to trying out Morse code to see what would happen. But even for the new
licenses, if Morse code goes by the wayside, I'd include a little bit of
the General information to try to whet the student's appetites for one
of the advanced licenses.

Question for the group:

Is learning more a bad thing or something?

- mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Dee D. Flint wrote:

I'm a little confused, Dee. What you just said is pretty much a
condensed version of what I was saying!


I should have made it clearer. You were asking for a two year wait between
General and Extra. And that is a significant change.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message y.com...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...

However, I think that one of the problems today is that the entry-level
license
is too VHF/UHF/voice/applicane operator-centric.
The entry level license should offer a wide selection of bands and modes,
rather than what we have now where newcomers get all of VHF/UHF but no HF.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Newcomers with any gumption can have some HF if they choose to pass the
code.

Sorry, Dee, but our resident Extra expert, TAFKA Rev. Jim, says that a
code exam is a disincentive to CW use on HF.

I just wonder what took him so long to recognize that fact as the
disincentive has been in place since 1912, and he has vehemently
disagreed with his new found philosophy for the past decade.

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

If I had my way, I would not end code testing at all.

If I had my way, I would require a code test for all ham licenses.

But it's almost certain to happen.

And many of us will oppose it as long as there's a way to do so.

I'll be happy if it doesn't, but life will go on.

Yep.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

Question for the group:

Is learning more a bad thing or something?

For amateur radio in the US of A?

All that is needed is hard work, discipline, and constant practice at
morse code. That is all that is needed.

Such will demonstrate to the amateur community your sincerety,
commitment and dedication to olde-tyme hamme tradition.

That, and total personal Belief that the ARRL is god of all radio,
knows all, etc., and never does wrong (even when it does).

We now return you to the noise level of Total Unquestioning Belief
in the amateur radio standards and practices of the 1920s.

LHA / WMD

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

Newcomers with any gumption can have some HF if they choose to pass the
code.

Hoops. Jump through the hoops like good little doggies. Arf, arf.

As a newcomer to HF 51 years ago, I got on HF without needing one bit
of morse code knowledge, skill, or anything else.

HF propagation hasn't changed since then. Solar cycles are still cycling.

The only difference is that hams have solid-state toys now instead of
glass, metal, and vacuum active devices. Some still insist on ON-OFF
keying of their carriers, even with sophisticated radios that can do much
more.

Tech study guide and test does include some very basic questions on
HF propagation, procedures, rules, etc. Unfortunately too many instructors
ignore the HF side of things and don't bother to give much encouragement to
go after the code so then the students end up on VHF/UHF only.

52 years ago I had good instructors at Fort Monmouth. Spent seven
months there before being assigned to the 71st Sig Svc Bn in Tokyo.
Only time us students had a code key was a one-afternoon hands-on
class that had two-tube MOPA HF transmitters...to learn how basic HF
technology was...and, in ham radio, still exists over a half century later.
The code key was needed solely for "turning on transmitter's emission."

None of the students had to use any morse code for any purpose later.
In Tokyo, army station ADA had 42 transmitters ranging in RF power
output from 1 to 40 KW. Absolutely no on-off keying CW used then,
wasn't used in 1978 when the HF facility was disbanded and returned to
the Japanese.

My
instructor, many moons ago, really emphasized going for the "complete" Tech
license (Novice written + Tech written + code). I'm glad he did.

Wow, yeah, full hoop set. Good for you.

Now, if someone invents a time machine, you can hop back to 1953 and
serve your country doing "radio" just like they did back then. Except the
VHF, UHF, and microwave stuff, of course.

LHA / WMD

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

No one commented on my proposal that I made earlier in the week. Perhaps
because it was hidden away in another thread (which I changed), or
perhaps it was stupid beyond belief.

I'll post it again in hopes of some feedback.

Did the FCC reject it?

Ahem...this group, unbeknownst to them, doesn't make any regulations!

Only demands.

Especially those about love, honor, and obeying morse code tradition.

Forever.

We now return you to the noise floor of incessant bickering, devoid of
independent thought. Amateur radio status quo must be maintained
at all costs!

LHA / WMD