N2EY wrote:
In article , Alun
writes:


That's one possibility. Another is bankruptcy and the resulting
defaults on student and other loans.

The problem with that is that I don't think you can write off student loans
through bankruptcy.


I'm not sure if you can or cannot. Anybody know for sure?


Yes and no:

from

http://www.mdbankruptcylaw.com/lawgu...u_cant_pay.asp


Another possible solution is to discharge your student loan in
bankruptcy. However, due to a 1998 change in the bankruptcy law, this is
harder than ever to do. In general, you can discharge a student loan in
bankruptcy only if you can prove that repaying the loan would be a
severe hardship for you. There are several factors that courts consider
in making this determination, but suffice it to say, it's a very
difficult standard to meet.


At one time, many students simply completed their education, and as a
matter of course, declared bankruptcy and wiped out their debts (HA!
America's best and brightest, eh?) After it caught on that they were
doing this, the law was changed.

So a person that declares bankruptcy has to continue repayment unless
they can prove they simply can't pay. And that isn't all that likely to
happen.



So, you may not get graduates going intentionally
bankrupt, but the inability to pay it off may lead more people into
bankruptcy. They may then still owe the loan, but it won't get paid back.


Either way spells trouble.


Makes me think of the "They Might be Giants" Sone "Minimum Wage"


Here's one data point:

In the fall of 1972, when I entered the University of Pennsylvania,
tuition alone (no books, fees, etc.) was $3000/year. Which was very
expensive at the time. Today the same school charges more than 10
times that. But will the starting salary offered to a BSEE in 2006 be
more than 10 times what it was in 1976, when I graduated? Is
fininacial aid 10 times what it was in my time there? Nope.

Add to this the fact that a kid who worked at minimum wage during the
weekends,
summer and holidays could make a sizable dent in that $3000/year
tuition. If a
kid could take home $1.50 an hour, and manage to put in 1000 hours per
year, there's half the tuition. Today, if a kid can take home $5 an
hour and put in the same 1000 hours, the resulting $5000 is only about
1/6 of the tuition.

That's just not right.


No argument there. Back home in the UK they used to give everyone grants.
They were means tested, and of course if your parents were middle income
you would be the poorest student in college.


Still, the effective result was that almost any kid who was smart enough to get
in could go to college and get a degree. The rich ones paid their way and the
rest got various forms of help but did not have to start out their professional
lives way in debt.


However, now they are phasing
out grants and bringing in loans. This is also a big mistake.


Actually, I think loans make sense *IF* they are reasonable and the job
situation is such that they can be paid back in a short period of time.

The loans and their repayment are pretty reasonable.

The big question nobody wants to answer is "why does a year of college cost so
much?"

You actually do know, don't you?



- Mike KB3EIA -

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , Alun
writes:

Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.


By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.

What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?

It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help

How do you know? Ever work at a race? I have, in a variety of roles.
LA and other major marathons have been using amateur radio operators
for race communications for years.

See:

http://www.lamarathon.com/2004/volunteers.php


http://www.doitsports.com/volunteer/info.tcl?job_id=488

(sign up for radio operators - only licensed hams need apply)


http://www.cert-la.com/

(scroll down a bit to where it says "ham radio operators wanted")


but the ARRL copy scribblers would have a cow about that. :-)

"ARRL copy scribblers"? Who are they? You mean folks who write the
facts about what actually happened?

http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2002/02/28/1/?nc=1

Nice write up about the 2002 LA Marathon

Maybe you didn't see the hams, so you just assume they are not there
and play no role. That's simply Not True.

N2EY wrote:
(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...

In article , Alun
writes:


Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.


By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.


What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?


It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help


How do you know? Ever work at a race? I have, in a variety of roles.
LA and other major marathons have been using amateur radio operators
for race communications for years.

A local bike race decided to try using cell phones as an experiment last
year. The hams were along, with the knowledge that we might be
"redundant in the future. They found out:

Every person had to be called separately. When a message had to go to
the whole group, everyone had to be called.

Those who were out of coverage range did not get the messages.

Coverage over the entire course was pretty bad.

Using cell phones was an immediate and complete failure. they realized
this on the first call that had to go to everyone.


Cell phones work for some things, but the idea that they can replace
radio operators is best advanced by those that don't really know how
that particular job is done.


http://www.lamarathon.com/2004/volunteers.php


Some hams and ham equipment spotted in the pix.


http://www.doitsports.com/volunteer/info.tcl?job_id=488


(sign up for radio operators - only licensed hams need apply)


Really? I thunk all you needed was a cell phone and the ability to say
"can you hear me now?....how about now? 8^)

http://www.cert-la.com/

(scroll down a bit to where it says "ham radio operators wanted")

Do you think maybe they put that in as an affirmative action sort of
thing? Maybe they just wanted to get the Hams to shut their yap's? ;^)



but the ARRL copy scribblers would have a cow about that. :-)


"ARRL copy scribblers"? Who are they? You mean folks who write the
facts about what actually happened?

http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2002/02/28/1/?nc=1

Nice write up about the 2002 LA Marathon

Maybe you didn't see the hams, so you just assume they are not there
and play no role. That's simply Not True.

Capitalization noted, Jim. Do some people think that the hams are
suppose to be in the lead vehicle or leading the parade? Heck they are
supposed to be behind the scenes. Go figure.

-

- Mike KB3EIA -

PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in
:

In article , Alun
writes:

(N2EY) wrote in
.com:

Alun wrote in message
.. .
snip

I think access to education is already a problem and likely to get
worse. At the same time it's probably about the only antidote to
offshore production.

Then it should be a major priority, rather than trips to Mars ans
such.

Or foreign adventuring.

We had good teachers in that....

Guilty as charged


Even then, you have countries like India to worry about. Despite
their overall poverty they have more English speaking educated
middle class than America (their sheer numbers help here), and they
are willing to do white collar and professional jobs for much less.

Only because it costs so much less to live there.

That's true, and ironically that's probably due to the huge number of
poor people there. Basic food and services are likely to be provided to
the Indian middle classes by people who are far poorer than we can
really imagine.

That's true but there are other factors to consider: the budget
deficit, the trade deficit and the strong dollar.

The figures for the January trade deficit came out recently. The
highest in US history, something like 46 billion in one month. Much of
that is with East Asian countires like China, Japan, and maybe India.
But particularly China.

Imports are inexpensive in part because these countries keep their
currencies low relative to the dollar. Because of the trade deficit,
lots of dollars wind up there, but they don't use those dollars to buy
US products. Instead, they buy US investments - both government
securities and private-sector companies.

IOW we export money and jobs, and they use the money to finance our
debt and buy up the USA a little at a time.

Way back in 1783, when the US Constitution was written here in
Philadelphia, one of the limitations placed on Congress was that
there would be no tariffs on *exports*. *Imports* could be
tarriffed/taxed at will - and they were! This was done both as a
source of income and to protect local industry from destructive
foreign competition. It is my understanding that we still have some
forms of this in place, in the form of such things as limits on the
number of cars that may be imported without special taxes. These
import quotas caused several carmakers (mostly Japanese) to build
assembly plants here in the USA. Some cars are even built here and
shipped *back to Japan*, because by doing so they count against the
import number.

Maybe it's time for that sort of thing to be expanded. Exporting jobs
may be good for some companies' bottom line in the short run, but in
the long run it spells big trouble.


Forgive me for saying this as a foreigner, but there seems to be no
limit to the level of greed exhibited by corporate America.

How do you define "greed", Alun? Wanting to make a profit? How much
profit is OK and how much is greed?

It's more of an attitude


As you say, it will
lead to big trouble in the long run. Look at what happened to the stock
market in the '20s.

And in 2000.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article , Alun
writes:

Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.


By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.

What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?

It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help

How do you know?

1. By reading about it in a respected newspaper.

2. By viewing it on broadcast television.

3. By knowing some details about it from one of its officials.

Ever work at a race?

Not in a foot race.

Why is that important to the "Economy, Stupid?"

LA and other major marathons have been using amateur radio operators
for race communications for years.

If you insist...and you WILL insist. You are a Believer.

Have you ever been IN Los Angeles?

Have you ever worked IN any volunteer function here?

YOU have NO relationship with the city of Los Angeles. I live here.
You don't.

Reality check: ANY marathon foot race can be done with available
non-amateur radio communications readily available in any large
urban area. The first Olympic marathon event was done without any
amateur radio "help." Several Games after that had NO amateur
radio "help" and also succeeded.

Maybe you didn't see the hams, so you just assume they are not there
and play no role. That's simply Not True.

I don't care one way or another about "ham radio help in marathons."

I know a marathon can be run WITHOUT amateur radio help. That's
been done many times.

You keep insisting amateur radio MUST be there...and that's simply
Not True.

Now go do some DX or gab expertly about The Economy, Kosher
Food, or choo-choo trains. Don't they need "ham radio help?"

LHA / WMD

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

How do you define "greed", Alun? Wanting to make a profit? How much profit is
OK and how much is greed?

Profit is defined as pecuniary compensation for services rendered.

U.S. amateur radio is defined as specifically NOT for pecuniary interest.

Try to stay focussed.

LHA / WMD

In article , Alun
writes:

(N2EY) wrote in
:

In article , Alun
writes:

(N2EY) wrote in
e.com:

Alun wrote in message
.. .
snip

I think access to education is already a problem and likely to get
worse. At the same time it's probably about the only antidote to
offshore production.

Then it should be a major priority, rather than trips to Mars ans
such.

Or foreign adventuring.

We had good teachers in that....

Guilty as charged

Exactly. You'd think we'd learn by others' mistakes.

Even then, you have countries like India to worry about. Despite
their overall poverty they have more English speaking educated
middle class than America (their sheer numbers help here), and they
are willing to do white collar and professional jobs for much less.

Only because it costs so much less to live there.

That's true, and ironically that's probably due to the huge number of
poor people there. Basic food and services are likely to be provided to
the Indian middle classes by people who are far poorer than we can
really imagine.

That's true but there are other factors to consider: the budget
deficit, the trade deficit and the strong dollar.

The figures for the January trade deficit came out recently. The
highest in US history, something like 46 billion in one month. Much of
that is with East Asian countires like China, Japan, and maybe India.
But particularly China.

Imports are inexpensive in part because these countries keep their
currencies low relative to the dollar. Because of the trade deficit,
lots of dollars wind up there, but they don't use those dollars to buy
US products. Instead, they buy US investments - both government
securities and private-sector companies.

IOW we export money and jobs, and they use the money to finance our
debt and buy up the USA a little at a time.

Way back in 1783, when the US Constitution was written here in
Philadelphia, one of the limitations placed on Congress was that
there would be no tariffs on *exports*. *Imports* could be
tarriffed/taxed at will - and they were! This was done both as a
source of income and to protect local industry from destructive
foreign competition. It is my understanding that we still have some
forms of this in place, in the form of such things as limits on the
number of cars that may be imported without special taxes. These
import quotas caused several carmakers (mostly Japanese) to build
assembly plants here in the USA. Some cars are even built here and
shipped *back to Japan*, because by doing so they count against the
import number.

Maybe it's time for that sort of thing to be expanded. Exporting jobs
may be good for some companies' bottom line in the short run, but in
the long run it spells big trouble.


Forgive me for saying this as a foreigner, but there seems to be no
limit to the level of greed exhibited by corporate America.

How do you define "greed", Alun? Wanting to make a profit? How much
profit is OK and how much is greed?

It's more of an attitude

Check this out:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...6&e=17&u=/wash
post/20040311/ts_washpost/a48216_2004mar10

"Six months after promising to create an office to help the nation's
struggling manufacturers, President Bush settled on someone to head it, but
the nomination was being reconsidered last night after Democrats revealed
that his candidate had opened a factory in China."

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:


Check this out:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...6&e=17&u=/wash
post/20040311/ts_washpost/a48216_2004mar10

"Six months after promising to create an office to help the nation's
struggling manufacturers, President Bush settled on someone to head it, but
the nomination was being reconsidered last night after Democrats revealed
that his candidate had opened a factory in China."

He ended up "declining" to take the position. Probably a smart move.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article , Alun
writes:

Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.


By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.

What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?

It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help

How do you know?

1. By reading about it in a respected newspaper.

Grit? USA Today, the newspaper for those who haven't the time for CNN's
in-depth coverage?

2. By viewing it on broadcast television.

You strike me as the kind of guy who has time for lots of things, like
watching an entire marathon in order to see if amateur radio is involved
or like making numerous lengthy posts to an internet newsgroup which
deals with an activity in which you are not a participant.

3. By knowing some details about it from one of its officials.

One official. Some details. Yep, that makes you an expert on the L.A.
Marathon.

Ever work at a race?

Not in a foot race.

Political race?

Why is that important to the "Economy, Stupid?"

Allow me to jog your memory. Jim responded to your comments. How did
they relate to the "Economy", Stupid?

LA and other major marathons have been using amateur radio operators
for race communications for years.

If you insist...and you WILL insist. You are a Believer.

He didn't insist. He provided you with a way to check out details.

Have you ever been IN Los Angeles?

Have you ever been in Bissau?

Have you ever worked IN any volunteer function here?

Did you ever worked in any capacity in Bissau?

YOU have NO relationship with the city of Los Angeles. I live here.
You don't.

YOU must BE an EXPERT. YOU live THERE so YOU must KNOW everything which
goes on THERE.

Reality check: ANY marathon foot race can be done with available
non-amateur radio communications readily available in any large
urban area. The first Olympic marathon event was done without any
amateur radio "help." Several Games after that had NO amateur
radio "help" and also succeeded.

That's nice. You were provided links to information which seems to
disprove your earlier statements. Your "first Olympic marathon" tap
dance isn't going to get you on "American Idol".

Maybe you didn't see the hams, so you just assume they are not there
and play no role. That's simply Not True.

I don't care one way or another about "ham radio help in marathons."

That's odd. You certainly seemed to care when you decided to take
another shot at amateur radio by bringing up the topic.

I know a marathon can be run WITHOUT amateur radio help. That's
been done many times.

A marathon. You brought up the Los Angeles Marathon. Run without
amateur radio help? Those links provided by Jim seem to disprove your
claims, kindly old gent.

You keep insisting amateur radio MUST be there...and that's simply
Not True.

What's not true is that amateur radio wasn't there. Look at the links.

Now go do some DX or gab expertly about The Economy, Kosher
Food, or choo-choo trains. Don't they need "ham radio help?"

Why, Len? Are you a ham?

Dave K8MN

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

How do you define "greed", Alun? Wanting to make a profit? How much profit is
OK and how much is greed?

Profit is defined as pecuniary compensation for services rendered.

That'd be incorrect. You'd have to deduct expenditures first.

U.S. amateur radio is defined as specifically NOT for pecuniary interest.

No kidding? Are you a radio amateur?

Try to stay focussed.

Are we to do as you do or do as you say, Leonard?

Dave K8MN