(William) wrote in message . com...

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...

You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service has
played
a major role in emergency comms.

What "unlicensed service"...?!?! CB? FRS? MURS? Part 15
compliant devices?

Sure. Why not?

OK, Brain...YOUR "scenario" was "that an unlicensed service has
played a major role in emergency comms".

Now...provide me with some example of one of those "unlicensed
services" playing a "major role".

To ME, at least, "major role" means that SOME sort of crucial
event was dependent upon one of those "services" being able to render
a meaningful, positive outcome.

So...YOU put it out there, let's see you come up with some
pertinent examples.

And remember, Brain, "major" was YOUR adjective...NOT mine.

I'm just so happy that you finally acknowledged that mere cell phones
play a major role in disaster communications. Or did you?

I said they played a role...just like Amateur Radio does.

Now...You made some silly assertions that I've asked you to
substantiate.

You got the cajones to come up with valid answers, or are we to
be treated to more of your lame sandlot excuses...???

You completely quoted all of that, Brain, but didn't answer a single bit
of it...even facetiously...

Ya did a GOOD JOB of validating my assumption of your lack of valid
argument and lack of cajones to do so...

Remember, Brain...we're using YOUR adjectives of "MAJOR ROLE" in disaster
and/or emergency communications.

So far, the only "role" you've been able to cite is Joe Average calling
9-1-1 to report an emergency. That is NOT "emergency comms".

I WANT TO KNOW what ROLE those unlicensed services play in disaster
mitigation EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS....

Thanks.

Steve, you need to tone it down a bit. You're being rude and
obnoxious. I'll not respond to your insanity in-kind. Best of luck
to you.

"Tone it down a bit"...?!?!

YOU made the assertion that "unlicensed services play a "major"
role in emergency comms".

I've asked you three or four times now to substantiate your
claims. YOUR claims, Brain...cited word-for-word, repeated by you
several times.

You "respond" by telling me I am rude and obnoxious.

You call ME "bizarre", yet you make outlandish assertions in a
public forum, then dodge all requests to "prove", at any level, your
claims.

I believe you to be a chronic liar. You have been "called" on
several occassions to back up your assertions, but then use this ruse
to try and avoid taking responsibility for your own actions.

Call me rude and obnoxious if you think it deflects attention from
you, but I can assure you that it does nothing of the sort. If
anything, childish dodges like this only highlight YOUR bizarre
behaviour.

The FACTS are that the "unlicensed" services (11 meter CB, FRS,
MURS and Part 15) provide NOTHING more than an ancilliary function in
ANY "emergency comms" and you know this to be true.

I certainly do in as much as I am INVOLVED with "emergency comms"
on SEVERAL levels, not all of which involve the Amateur Radio or CAP.
Most everyone else in this forum knows these things to be true too.

You and Lennie seem to be the only ones in this forum who think
that if you keep repeating the same lame, untrue "stuff" that it will
somehow manifest a thread of truth. Sorry...that doesn't work.

Now...PLEASE try and exceed my expectations with the next post
and pony-up some cajones to either admit you are either blatantly
lying, making wild guesses, or just trolling for the sake of making
arguments that you obviously can't support.

Or REALLY try something new and discuss something you have some
EXPERIENCE in...THAT would be refreshing.

Steve, K4YZ

Hello, Steve


I think I have figured out the real problem behind most of the flames both
in this group and rec.radio.cb. I might be wrong, but it appears everyone
is trying to defend that their particular turf is "important" and someone
else's is not.

If you go back into the 50s and 60s, amateur radio served quite well for
long-haul phone patches and in emergencies. Very localized emergencies,
such as an auto accident would largely be reported by normal telephone. In
the 70s, the cb craze took hold and certainly I would expect that cb was
sometimes used to report the accidents. The small number of amateurs would
preclude them being involved very often in such a situation. Voilla, cb is
more important than ham radio.

Fast-forward to today. Cell phones are likely the primary means of
reporting those accidents. Who needs the hams? Some hams will say "who
needs cb?"

A lot of folks state that amateur radio isn't a service; it's just a hobby.

Few take into account how fragile that infrastructure of cell phones,
telephones, and internet can be when a large area is affected. That nasty
ice storm in the North East (was it 1997?) affected areas for hundreds of
miles. There were no cell phones as the cell phone towers went silent after
power had been out for days. No electricty, no heat, no telephones for
hundreds of miles. A relative of mine in Gouverneur, NY, had no heat,
power, or telephone for two *weeks*!!!

One amateur repeater was pressed into service for the police. I do not know
if the repeater was reprogrammed or they simply moved the police repeater to
the amateur site. The amateur site withstood the ice and they had generator
backup with a *lot* of fuel available.

I don't think it is as important "how" something is done as opposed to the
fact that it gets done. If someone is assisting at a shelter cooking meals,
that individual is *doing* something. That, to me, is more important than
all of the useless crying that goes on around these parts from time to time


BTW, during that ice storm, the calls were going out for batteries,
flashlights, generators, blankets, food, coffee, and mobile amateur
operators with HF capabilities. If you have nothing working for well over
100 miles in the N.E. U.S. and Canada, you will likely not get it done on
VHF/UHF or cb.

73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA



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Jim Hampton wrote:


Few take into account how fragile that infrastructure of cell phones,
telephones, and internet can be when a large area is affected. That nasty
ice storm in the North East (was it 1997?) affected areas for hundreds of
miles. There were no cell phones as the cell phone towers went silent after
power had been out for days. No electricty, no heat, no telephones for
hundreds of miles. A relative of mine in Gouverneur, NY, had no heat,
power, or telephone for two *weeks*!!!

Surley you jest, according to witless willie cell phones will be there
for emergencies.

One amateur repeater was pressed into service for the police. I do not know
if the repeater was reprogrammed or they simply moved the police repeater to
the amateur site. The amateur site withstood the ice and they had generator
backup with a *lot* of fuel available.

You mean that Amateur Radio withstood the ravages of the storm and the
cell network did not! Looks like Amateur Radio was there when needed
again, but the cell network just couldn't hack it.


BTW, during that ice storm, the calls were going out for batteries,
flashlights, generators, blankets, food, coffee, and mobile amateur
operators with HF capabilities. If you have nothing working for well over
100 miles in the N.E. U.S. and Canada, you will likely not get it done on
VHF/UHF or cb.

I guess the batteries for the cell network hadn't been charged up in
prep for an emergency.

Sure, the cell phone towers have batteries. They're likely fine for a
number of hours of outage - but Gouverneur had no power for over two weeks.
Those batteries aren't designed to last for weeks of drain without recharge.
In this country, an engineer could well be fired for overdesigning something
(that costs money). Likewise, those batteries are there to keep things
working for a *short* power outage. It would cost too much to design those
cell towers to run on batteries for weeks on end with no recharging in that
period. It probably wouldn't have mattered much anyways as the conventional
phone lines were out too - and cell phones are wireless only between the
user and the tower. BTW, unless you had your own generator and were on
two-way satellite internet, you wouldn't have the internet either. No
telephone, no dial-up, no DSL. I have no idea how well any cable systems
made out, but with the telephone system down I don't know if they had any
way to get information out of the area.


73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA


"JJ" wrote in message
...
You mean that Amateur Radio withstood the ravages of the storm and the
cell network did not! Looks like Amateur Radio was there when needed
again, but the cell network just couldn't hack it.


I guess the batteries for the cell network hadn't been charged up in
prep for an emergency.




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In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:

Sure, the cell phone towers have batteries. They're likely fine for a
number of hours of outage - but Gouverneur had no power for over two weeks.
Those batteries aren't designed to last for weeks of drain without recharge.
In this country, an engineer could well be fired for overdesigning something
(that costs money).

Right, those darn engineers are the cause of all the problems!

Likewise, those batteries are there to keep things
working for a *short* power outage. It would cost too much to design those
cell towers to run on batteries for weeks on end with no recharging in that
period. It probably wouldn't have mattered much anyways as the conventional
phone lines were out too - and cell phones are wireless only between the
user and the tower. BTW, unless you had your own generator and were on
two-way satellite internet, you wouldn't have the internet either.

You don't have a motor-generator set for emergency power?!?

Gosh and golly, aren't all radio amateurs "emergency minutemen,"
ready to leap in and save the day with ham radio?

I've been told that...

LHA / WMD

In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:

Hello, Steve

I think I have figured out the real problem behind most of the flames both
in this group and rec.radio.cb. I might be wrong, but it appears everyone
is trying to defend that their particular turf is "important" and someone
else's is not.

...more likely just defending their own pesonna, but why spoil your
nice rant? :-)

If you go back into the 50s and 60s, amateur radio served quite well for
long-haul phone patches and in emergencies. Very localized emergencies,
such as an auto accident would largely be reported by normal telephone. In
the 70s, the cb craze took hold and certainly I would expect that cb was
sometimes used to report the accidents. The small number of amateurs would
preclude them being involved very often in such a situation. Voilla, cb is
more important than ham radio.

Fast-forward to today. Cell phones are likely the primary means of
reporting those accidents. Who needs the hams? Some hams will say "who
needs cb?"

A lot of folks state that amateur radio isn't a service; it's just a hobby.

Amateurs are all there to SERVE as "emergency minutemen!"

Right.

Few take into account how fragile that infrastructure of cell phones,
telephones, and internet can be when a large area is affected.

Riiight...on 11 Sep 01 the entire borough of Manhattan went down
after the Attack on the WTC towers...?

Ham radio was Johnny-on-the-spot immediately notifying all?

That nasty
ice storm in the North East (was it 1997?) affected areas for hundreds of
miles. There were no cell phones as the cell phone towers went silent after
power had been out for days. No electricty, no heat, no telephones for
hundreds of miles. A relative of mine in Gouverneur, NY, had no heat,
power, or telephone for two *weeks*!!!

Upstate New York is YOUR "turf," right?

Was anyone knocking the state of New York? (or New Yourk?)

I don't think so.

One amateur repeater was pressed into service for the police. I do not know
if the repeater was reprogrammed or they simply moved the police repeater to
the amateur site. The amateur site withstood the ice and they had generator
backup with a *lot* of fuel available.

Did the nasty police engineer get fired because he didn't specify
emergency power for the "police repeater?"

I don't think it is as important "how" something is done as opposed to the
fact that it gets done. If someone is assisting at a shelter cooking meals,
that individual is *doing* something. That, to me, is more important than
all of the useless crying that goes on around these parts from time to time

Right...I'm going to need a ham license in order to volunteer serving
at homeless shelters? They do serve ham. Quite good, tastes like
chicken...wonder who it was?

BTW, during that ice storm, the calls were going out for batteries,
flashlights, generators, blankets, food, coffee, and mobile amateur
operators with HF capabilities. If you have nothing working for well over
100 miles in the N.E. U.S. and Canada, you will likely not get it done on
VHF/UHF or cb.

Did New York state close down all its National Guard units? Air
Guard? Political disagreement between NY Governor and the
White House? Was FEMA on vacation? No aid available for NY
state? Terrible situation!

Well, next time that happens, send me an aid request via NTS.
I'll put together a CARE package for you with an extra can of
Sterno so you won't be too cold. Ought to arrive in two months;
takes 7 weeks to get the NTS message through...allow for
sufficient time.

Anything to help.

LHA / WMD

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message . com...
(William) wrote in message . com...

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...

You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service has
played
a major role in emergency comms.

What "unlicensed service"...?!?! CB? FRS? MURS? Part 15
compliant devices?

Sure. Why not?

The FACTS are that the "unlicensed" services (11 meter CB, FRS,
MURS and Part 15) provide NOTHING more than an ancilliary function in
ANY "emergency comms" and you know this to be true.

As I stated in another thread, I had the chance to spend the day
in the TEMA/FEMA facility in Nashville.

The ONLY "unlicensed" devices in the facility were two cordless
phones, both of which were part of unsecure phone lines.

I am wondering, Brain, is THAT what YOU call a "MAJOR
ROLE"...?!?!

Putz.

Steve, K4YZ

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:52:45 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:

Sure, the cell phone towers have batteries. They're likely fine for a
number of hours of outage - but Gouverneur had no power for over two weeks.
Those batteries aren't designed to last for weeks of drain without recharge.
In this country, an engineer could well be fired for overdesigning something
(that costs money). Likewise, those batteries are there to keep things
working for a *short* power outage. It would cost too much to design those
cell towers to run on batteries for weeks on end with no recharging in that
period.

UPS float-charged batteries are designed to keep the equipment on
line until the backup generator gets up to speed/voltage. This
assumes that the latter is tested regularly. Pac*Bell learned that
the hard way when one of their gas turbine backup generators
literally tore itself to pieces when it attempted to start after
the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake - it had not been serviced or
tested for four years. Any garage mechanic can service a diesel
genset - it takes an aviation A&P qualified mechanic to service the
gas turbine....and their services cost money.

It probably wouldn't have mattered much anyways as the conventional
phone lines were out too - and cell phones are wireless only between the
user and the tower.

Survivable microwave and fiber are the downlinks of choice nowadays.

The engineering firm that I consult for is in the business of
designing such facilities for the public safety amd land
transportation sector. Seismic Class 4 - storm and earthquake
survivable - is now required for all new or upgraded critical (i.e.
public safety) radio installations in California and we recommend it
for everyone.

What the make-it-cheaply phone companies do would make ol' Ma Bell
spin in her grave.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

Len Over 21 knocked the little old lady resthome resident from in front
of the computer, grabbed the keybord and blathered:

Well, next time that happens, send me an aid request via NTS.
I'll put together a CARE package for you with an extra can of
Sterno so you won't be too cold. Ought to arrive in two months;
takes 7 weeks to get the NTS message through...allow for
sufficient time.

Anything to help.

No, ham radio does not "save the day" in every emergency, although it
has at times, nor does every ham claim to be a hero, although some have
gone above and beyond just like a lot of other good folks. Not often
does ham radio become *the* major means of communications in a disaster
situation, but it has in the past and likely will again in the future.
Not in every disaster is ham radio called upon to help and supplement
other official comms, but it has in the past and likely will in the future.

Poor old senile lennieboy, he just can't bring himself to admit that ham
radio has and will play a vital part in emergency communications, and he
can't be a part of it because he can't pass the test.

The military, Homeland Defense, and other civil officials recgonize the
value that ham radio can be in times of emergencies, they intergrate it
in their disaster planning, but they wouldn't give you the time of day
lennieboy. Grinds your hemorrhoids dosen't it?
Now go back to pestering the little old ladies in the sitting room.

Steve Robeson, K4CAP wrote:

As I stated in another thread, I had the chance to spend the day
in the TEMA/FEMA facility in Nashville.

The ONLY "unlicensed" devices in the facility were two cordless
phones, both of which were part of unsecure phone lines.

I am wondering, Brain, is THAT what YOU call a "MAJOR
ROLE"...?!?!

Steve, are you trying to tell us that the facility did *not* have a
specially dedicated cell phone just for disaster emergency comms?